Progress of delivery of cascaded/refurbished/PRM modified stock to TFW/Wales and Borders

[Bob Price]

With Covid and everything happening, Do you think TFW will keep all the current stock or do you think they will get all the new trains?

With respect they are well on the way to being built. 230's are 90% delivered and the first if the new ones have already had photos released.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I doubt they have an option to exit the contract, so I'd imagine they will get them, yes.

Where there's a will there's a way surely, particularly for a law making body and with COVID-19 as an unforseen event. I doubt they had an option to exit the contract with KeolisAmey as early as they have either (I think there was a brakepoint after 5yrs). Even so, I don't pretend for a minute that it would be easy to exit the new train contracts but if they had wanted to I'm sure they could have done so while breaking off the agreement with KeolisAmey. Sadly the WAG seem to be going for the easy life and allowing the 197s to undermine their new decarbonising transport strategy.

 

[sw1ller]

Pretty sure the bidstons will be a 150 and a 230 after May. There’s going to be a new link set up at Chester with 12 drivers on it permanently. That will be enough to get them going and then they can train the rest of the depot as and when people are available.

 

[Eccles1983]

A single 153 maybe, but how much difference is there between 2 153s and a 150?
I've heard of single 153s on that line but not a pair.

14 minutes as I already stated previously.

It was tested in the last 12mths.

 

[Cardiff123]

Deleted

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sadly the WAG seem to be going for the easy life and allowing the 197s to undermine their new decarbonising transport strategy.

Are they? I don't think there's any sign that the lines they will operate on will be electrified any time even vaguely soon, and if they are (the North Wales Coast probably has the most chance) then they could be cascaded to another TOC to get rid of 15x.

 

[craigybagel]

Not a hope the others get cancelled. Regardless of whether or not they're needed (and they are), the last thing the Welsh government is going to want to do now they're in charge is cancel the order for shiny new trains - especially those shiny new trains that are being built in Wales!

Pretty sure the bidstons will be a 150 and a 230 after May. There’s going to be a new link set up at Chester with 12 drivers on it permanently. That will be enough to get them going and then they can train the rest of the depot as and when people are available.

Permanent Bidstons?! Must be the folks who live near Wrexham who've volunteered for that, I can't imagine it appealing to many others!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Permanent Bidstons?! Must be the folks who live near Wrexham who've volunteered for that, I can't imagine it appealing to many others!

Maybe more so with the guards as they have more public contact, but I can see the idea of the same few "friendly faces" every day appealing to passengers on a rural branch line - Trent Barton do it on bus routes and sort of use it as a selling point.

 

[Anonymous10]

Are they? I don't think there's any sign that the lines they will operate on will be electrified any time even vaguely soon, and if they are (the North Wales Coast probably has the most chance) then they could be cascaded to another TOC to get rid of 15x.

i can only see swansea-cardiff being electrified i believe Cardiff to Bristol is and the north wales main line

 

[craigybagel]

Maybe more so with the guards as they have more public contact, but I can see the idea of the same few "friendly faces" every day appealing to passengers on a rural branch line - Trent Barton do it on bus routes and sort of use it as a selling point.

Indeed that is true, from a customer point of view it could be popular. I'm just looking at it from a staff point of view, where the Bidston line is seen by many as a particularly challenging route to work over, especially when compared to other routes worked by the depots concerned (Chester & Shrewsbury).

 

[Rhydgaled]

Are they? I don't think there's any sign that the lines they will operate on will be electrified any time even vaguely soon, and if they are (the North Wales Coast probably has the most chance) then they could be cascaded to another TOC to get rid of 15x.

i can only see swansea-cardiff being electrified i believe Cardiff to Bristol is and the north wales main line

I think this discussion is more relavant to the CAF Civity for TfW topic so I have replied there instead. https://railforums.co.uk/threads/caf-civity-for-tfw.182501/page-27

Not a hope the others get cancelled. Regardless of whether or not they're needed (and they are), the last thing the Welsh government is going to want to do now they're in charge is cancel the order for shiny new trains - especially those shiny new trains that are being built in Wales!

Extend the lease on the 158s and 175s, then only 20-30 shiny new trains assembled in Wales are needed. They may be shiny and new, but they are a barrier to UK rail decarbonisation and a downgrade in terms of quality compared to 158s and 175s. The only route in W&B land that's anywhere near suitable for a significant number of 197s is the hourly stopper to Llandudno and even that only uses many units if you double them up and run 4/5-car trains.

 

[craigybagel]

Extend the lease on the 158s and 175s, then only 20-30 shiny new trains assembled in Wales are needed. They may be shiny and new, but they are a barrier to UK rail decarbonisation and a downgrade in terms of quality compared to 158s and 175s. The only route in W&B land that's anywhere near suitable for a significant number of 197s is the hourly stopper to Llandudno and even that only uses many units if you double them up and run 4/5-car trains.

I admire your perseverance even if I don't agree with your opinion, but in either case it's not going to happen.

 

[berneyarms]

I think this discussion is more relavant to the CAF Civity for TfW topic so I have replied there instead. https://railforums.co.uk/threads/caf-civity-for-tfw.182501/page-27


Extend the lease on the 158s and 175s, then only 20-30 shiny new trains assembled in Wales are needed. They may be shiny and new, but they are a barrier to UK rail decarbonisation and a downgrade in terms of quality compared to 158s and 175s. The only route in W&B land that's anywhere near suitable for a significant number of 197s is the hourly stopper to Llandudno and even that only uses many units if you double them up and run 4/5-car trains.

The Class 197 ship has sailed at this stage.

I think you need to move on and accept that.

 

[craigybagel]

There seems to be no plan as yet for a specific guards link on the Bidstons, maybe because it's easier to train guards than the driver's.

Regarding the Bidstons link I think TFW need 12 drivers to volunteer to make it viable, so it's a case of wait & see if they get the required amount. The 230 project is very challenging in so many ways for TFW, that's why the 3 month plan from may is 1 X 230 unit running with 1 X 150 unit. The vivarail 230 depot is yet to be built & fueling is at chester, plus lots of taxis to Birkenhead North depot. Unless the drivers live in Wrexham I can't see the appeal but if it does get the project going ahead its worth trying.

Thanks - didn't know it was just the drivers for a dedicated link but I agree that makes a lot more sense. Can't see it being more than a 2 day course for the guards and they're less effected by social distancing issues.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The Class 197 ship has sailed at this stage.

I think you need to move on and accept that.

Sorry, but as far out of the harbour the ship has indeed sailed I cannot accept it until it is proved to me that the number of completed bodyshells has exceeded what I believe to be 'safe limits'.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Sorry, but as far out of the harbour the ship has indeed sailed I cannot accept it until it is proved to me that the number of completed bodyshells has exceeded what I believe to be 'safe limits'.

To save me scrolling through the whole of the thread, what exactly are your reservations/doubts about the 197s?

 

[berneyarms]

To save me scrolling through the whole of the thread, what exactly are your reservations/doubts about the 197s?

Do a search in this thread - this will answer that rather than repeating it again.

CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #8 originally in this thread. Especially as the service is usually standing room only as far as Cwmbran in standard class. No, I think the best thing would be too do it the same as it is now with the MKIIIs, with a view to adding a 5th composite car in the future if...

www.railforums.co.uk

This post today from that threatarticulates it and below it there are several rebuttals too.

CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

The main concern about toilets, to me, is that if there's only one it may be out of use. Though railway toilet availability seems to be better of late than it has been in the past. The big issue with the toilets in the past was a lack of tanking facilities. In the days when only 175s had CET...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Rhydgaled]

To save me scrolling through the whole of the thread, what exactly are your reservations/doubts about the 197s?

If all are built would increase the number of new DMUs in Britain from 84 to 161. I believe this is too many young trains that are unable to benefit from electrification.

Also, the new fleet is a downgrade in many respects compared to the existing 158s and 175s (seats, toilets etc.). It's not possible to address this because of the double-width space-wasting doors. I don't see how that the new product we are being offered can be expected to attract modal shift from private cars which are much more luxurious.

EDIT: Sorry - meant to post that in the other topic, could somebody move it please?

 

[Mrs. Fortescue]

How will it free up 150s? What will change between now and May? Inevitably what has happened is that a few refurbs have clustered in North Wales, leaving several unusable 153/9 at Canton. Once that happens, it's quite difficult to balance them out again. The refurbishment will make them nicer for passengers but unlikely to help the shortage of units.

I'm not quite sure what you fail to understand - where 150s are currently doing work, such as on the South Wales Main Line, the 153s can replace those 150s and strengthen elsewhere.

It will literally free up 150s by replacing them.

 

[Anonymous10]

I'm not quite sure what you fail to understand - where 150s are currently doing work, such as on the South Wales Main Line, the 153s can replace those 150s and strengthen elsewhere.

It will literally free up 150s by replacing them.

agreed as no prm units will be doubled ie u wont find a double 150 or a 153prm 153prm non prm 153 ect

 

[Jez]

I'm not quite sure what you fail to understand - where 150s are currently doing work, such as on the South Wales Main Line, the 153s can replace those 150s and strengthen elsewhere.

It will literally free up 150s by replacing them.

There shouldn't be many 150s needed for non valley lines now? I know things are very different due to covid but even if there was a normal weekday timetable Pembroke Dock/Fishguard should be 153s (as is the HOW and Crewe local), Maesteg and Ebbw Vale are now 170s and Chester-Crewe a pair of 153s. The only places a 150 might be used outside of valley lines is Wrexham-Bidson and Conwy Valley in Summer when a two car is most needed. Otherwise id expect them all to be used on the valley lines.

 

[Anonymous10]

There shouldn't be many 150s needed for non valley lines now? I know things are very different due to covid but even if there was a normal weekday timetable Pembroke Dock/Fishguard should be 153s (as is the HOW and Crewe local), Maesteg and Ebbw Vale are now 170s and Chester-Crewe a pair of 153s. The only places a 150 might be used outside of valley lines is Wrexham-Bidson and Conwy Valley in Summer when a two car is most needed. Otherwise id expect them all to be used on the valley lines.

they have to manage the complaints ive seen locals to the west complaining due to the smaller trains we have had for the past year ive seen single car 153s in peak of summer at points

 

[Caaardiff]

There's 12 170's in the fleet and probably only about 6-7 in use each day. The sooner they are sent West and train crew trained up the better. Why this hasn't been done yet rather than scrambling around for clapped out 153's and investing in PRM mods is beyond me. TfW have had these staring them in the face since they took them on but have prioritised introduction of 2 unknown new fleets and training train crew up on them which are running into being years late.
There could have been 2 or 3 170's covering West Wales by now which would have freed up 3 150's or up to 6 153's for the Valleys (Rhymney) and still 2 left on Depot for maintenance.

 

[craigybagel]

There's 12 170's in the fleet and probably only about 6-7 in use each day. The sooner they are sent West and train crew trained up the better. Why this hasn't been done yet rather than scrambling around for clapped out 153's and investing in PRM mods is beyond me. TfW have had these staring them in the face since they took them on but have prioritised introduction of 2 unknown new fleets and training train crew up on them which are running into being years late.
There could have been 2 or 3 170's covering West Wales by now which would have freed up 3 150's or up to 6 153's for the Valleys (Rhymney) and still 2 left on Depot for maintenance.

If it wasn't for Covid, the full timetable on the Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham routes would have left very little slack in the 170 fleet for any routes

I do agree that it's very frustrating seeing them either sitting idle or being used on routes that (with the exception of Cheltenham) they're risky not suited for, when 150s and 153s are being sent to far flung places every day, but that's how we ended up where we are

 

[Caaardiff]

Even with the full timetable there's only about 7 or maybe 8 used. Up until the latest covid cuts I'm pretty sure all 3 routes were running full hourly timetable.

 

[Anonymous10]

There's 12 170's in the fleet and probably only about 6-7 in use each day. The sooner they are sent West and train crew trained up the better. Why this hasn't been done yet rather than scrambling around for clapped out 153's and investing in PRM mods is beyond me. TfW have had these staring them in the face since they took them on but have prioritised introduction of 2 unknown new fleets and training train crew up on them which are running into being years late.
There could have been 2 or 3 170's covering West Wales by now which would have freed up 3 150's or up to 6 153's for the Valleys (Rhymney) and still 2 left on Depot for maintenance.

agreed and people up west would get to say yay we get new trains (something we havent in a long time everyone wins

 

[animationmilo]

Do you think having just the 4, x 2 car 170s will be enough for Heart of Wales in the future?

 

[craigybagel]

Do you think having just the 4, x 2 car 170s will be enough for Heart of Wales in the future?

Before Covid, only 3 units were required for the combined Heart of Wales and Shrewsbury - Crewe local service. However, the plan is for the Heart of Wales to gain a 5th service per day so that might complicate things - it remains to be seen what impact the extra service will have on the timetable.

 

[Caaardiff]

The 11 Stadler Flirt DEMUs will be taking over the current 170 routes so the 170s will be cascaded west to cover West Wales and Heart of Wales. It's likely 3 cars will be seen at some point of the HOW

 

[Anonymous10]

The 11 Stadler Flirt DEMUs will be taking over the current 170 routes so the 170s will be cascaded west to cover West Wales and Heart of Wales.

does that mean the Pembroke dock branch will see 3 car trains ?