Lumo (East Coast Trains) Class 803 Updates/Discussion

[Gellico]

Whilst the 803 lack a kitchen, do they have a buffet car/section?
Seems a missed opportunity if they did not

 

[Ianno87]

Whilst the 803 lack a kitchen, do they have a buffet car/section?
Seems a missed opportunity if they did not

Trolley seem to do a better trade and don't come at the cost of seats or other space

 

[swt_passenger]

Whilst the 803 lack a kitchen, do they have a buffet car/section?
Seems a missed opportunity if they did not

All First’s PR says is “at seat catering” which to me translates as a trolley service.

 

[43096]

All First’s PR says is “at seat catering” which to me translates as a trolley service.

It could just mean you're allowed to consume your own food and drink on board!

 

[Gellico]

Oh that is disappointing, would of appreciated the opportunity to have access to food, and more importantly drink as & when I want it.
The aspect I miss the most from HSTs in the Western region was the pub like atmosphere in the buffet cars in the evenings, which sadly died out overnight.
Personally not a fan of having less choice, also from experience of IETs on GWR most of the time it ends up becoming a "static trolley service" more often than not anyways...

What a choice to make now
- LNER with buffet but back killing seats
or
- ECT with better seats but no buffet...

Personally I think ECT could of had a reasonably business case for a buffet section with a good, affordable menu. Given alcohol on trains has far less restrictive in terms of licensing than static venues and can make a fair few quid it is a shame that avenue was not explored however the model to offer cheap seats to counter EasyJet is understandable - I just wish the service offered more really.

 

[Pacerman99]

Oh that is disappointing, would of appreciated the opportunity to have access to food, and more importantly drink as & when I want it.
The aspect I miss the most from HSTs in the Western region was the pub like atmosphere in the buffet cars in the evenings, which sadly died out overnight.
Personally not a fan of having less choice, also from experience of IETs on GWR most of the time it ends up becoming a "static trolley service" more often than not anyways...

What a choice to make now
- LNER with buffet but back killing seats
or
- ECT with better seats but no buffet...

Personally I think ECT could of had a reasonably business case for a buffet section with a good, affordable menu. Given alcohol on trains has far less restrictive in terms of licensing than static venues and can make a fair few quid it is a shame that avenue was not explored however the model to offer cheap seats to counter EasyJet is understandable - I just wish the service offered more really.

Do we know if the 803s will have better seats than the 800s? Surely for such a low cost model First will pick the cheapest seat.

 

[37424]

Well the fact there are no blacked out Windows unlike the LNER sets where the buffet car is it would seem to confirm they don't have a buffet, given they are competing against the same train but with a buffet car I would have thought they might justify especially as they are going to have more standard class passengers than a 5 car LNER set, but then again I guess its pack them in Ryanair Rail.

 

[Gellico]

Do we know if the 803s will have better seats than the 800s? Surely for such a low cost model First will pick the cheapest seat.

I believe it has been mentioned they aren't to be getting the same as all other current IETs so that must be some form of improvement.
Also on a fully commercial service it makes sense to invest in better quality interior otherwise why exactly would you bother using ECT over LNER quite frankly.
With a railcard I can get an LNER service in 1 month advance for £23.10 at 1400 from KGX to Edinburgh. Given how LNER offers 2 tph AND has one of the highest TOC satisfaction ratings I would imagine ECT will need to offer as much as possible to gain custom as cost is not exactly a major disparity between to two.
If ECT offers a £25 walk up fair then they will do just fine but I severely doubt that will be the case.

 

[Bald Rick]

given they are competing against the same train but with a buffet car

They are mostly competing against A320s with orange tails, which also don’t have a buffet.

 

[Gellico]

Well the fact there are no blacked out Windows unlike the LNER sets where the buffet car is it would seem to confirm they don't have a buffet, given they are competing against the same train but with a buffet car I would have thought they might justify especially as they are going to have more standard class passengers than a 5 car LNER set, but then again I guess its pack them in Ryanair Rail.

But given the price per seat is going to be less additional income would surely be desired. If you charge lower ticket prices people are generally more inclined to splash out more on the extras, if you go into Wetherspoons and order one of the basic burger meals then see it costs like £5, you think it's nothing then you quickly add on half a dozen extras and before you know it you have doubled your spend. This same logic could potentially be applied to ECT, by charging cheap walk up fairs then obtaining a very high on-board catering rate, if half the people aboard spent £5 from the shop/buffet on a portion of chips and a drink then very quickly you have the better part of a grand on a full trip.
I my opinion it just makes sense for the operator to create more of a niche for itself on the very crowded ECML.

 

[JonathanH]

This same logic could potentially be applied to ECT, by charging cheap walk up fairs then obtaining a very high on-board catering rate, if half the people aboard spent £5 from the shop/buffet on a portion of chips and a drink then very quickly you have the better part of a grand on a full trip.

People don't go to the buffet because they don't like leaving their belongings unguarded and they don't want the interruption of leaving their seat. Informed posters have indicated that GWR makes more money from a well-stocked trolley on a long-distance train than it did from its buffets with less waste.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...the-buffet-on-gwr.181401/page-34#post-4352272
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...the-buffet-on-gwr.181401/page-34#post-4352484

If you charge a 'very high on-board catering rate' people will tend to stock up at the station before they travel. When I used to travel from Euston, I often paid a visit to the Sainsburys Local outside the station. Similarly, at Kings Cross, there is a great Tesco Metro not far away.

If you charge lower ticket prices people are generally more inclined to splash out more on the extras

Is that even true? The monetary spend on a train ticket may be in a completely different month from when the person travels. Are you thinking that people look at their ticket and think, "that was cheap, I can spend more money on board this train because I have got such a great deal". I think they are different decisions.

You may have a bit more point if the decision to spend money on board is made when the ticket is purchased - eg by buying a catering voucher or meal in advance - but that is different and not necessarily easy to provide.

 

[southern442]

Is that even true? The monetary spend on a train ticket may be in a completely different month from when the person travels. Are you thinking that people look at their ticket and think, "that was cheap, I can spend more money on board this train because I have got such a great deal". I think they are different decisions.

You may have a bit more point if the decision to spend money on board is made when the ticket is purchased - eg by buying a catering voucher or meal in advance - but that is different and not necessarily easy to provide.

This does generally seem to be how cheap flights work, with various strict rules and add-ons that people willingly pay for because their flight was so cheap, as an example. However the difference is that those are usually all but compulsory (when it comes to baggage restrictions etc) whereas extra catering is not.

 

[31160]

Is there anything published about the planned stopping patterns yet

 

[JonathanH]

Is there anything published about the planned stopping patterns yet

Stevenage (not all services), Newcastle, Morpeth

The schedules are on RTT. The discussion is in this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/may-2021-timetable-change.213723/page-6#post-5023134 because that is about the May timetable and this thread is specifically about the units themselves and their facilities.

 

[Ianno87]

Is that even true? The monetary spend on a train ticket may be in a completely different month from when the person travels. Are you thinking that people look at their ticket and think, "that was cheap, I can spend more money on board this train because I have got such a great deal". I think they are different decisions.

You may have a bit more point if the decision to spend money on board is made when the ticket is purchased - eg by buying a catering voucher or meal in advance - but that is different and not necessarily easy to provide.

If you're cost conscious with train tickets, chances are you are going to pre-purchase food from Tesco beforehand, rather than pay inflated on-train prices.

 

[RH Liner]

They can’t be, as they are electric only.

My point exactly

 

[jopsuk]

Bit on the 'plain' side. Unless vinyls are to be added to sort of "jazz" it up a bit?

I would expect vinyls; I'd reckon there's a good chance they'll do testing and training in plain colours though and apply the vinyls (which can be done very quickly) to only be seen on the morning of the service launch? They might even manage a soft launch in plain and vinyl up for the press launch.

 

[Master29]

With start date less than 2 months away there doesn't seem to be any website running as yet. I can't seem to find anything other than the usual First Group spin.

 

[Bald Rick]

With start date less than 2 months away there doesn't seem to be any website running as yet. I can't seem to find anything other than the usual First Group spin.

It isn’t two months away.
“Autumn”.

 

[Master29]

It isn’t two months away.
“Autumn”.

I had read around May 2021 but as you point out I was originally under the impression it was autumn. If so I happily stand corrected.

 

[Ianno87]

I had read around May 2021 but as you point out I was originally under the impression it was autumn. If so I happily stand corrected.

The paths are in the May 2021 timetable, but will not be used in anger until Autumn.

 

[RPI]

People don't go to the buffet because they don't like leaving their belongings unguarded and they don't want the interruption of leaving their seat. Informed posters have indicated that GWR makes more money from a well-stocked trolley on a long-distance train than it did from its buffets with less waste.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...the-buffet-on-gwr.181401/page-34#post-4352272
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...the-buffet-on-gwr.181401/page-34#post-4352484

Whist I dont have any figures, I'd be inclined to agree with you, currently there is now catering back on most GWR IET's and its been interesting to see that although very few people are travelling, when the trolley goes through almost everyone is purchasing something, if they had to go and get it I doubt anyone would bother.

 

[hexagon789]

I would expect vinyls; I'd reckon there's a good chance they'll do testing and training in plain colours though and apply the vinyls (which can be done very quickly) to only be seen on the morning of the service launch? They might even manage a soft launch in plain and vinyl up for the press launch.

Would make sense, after all plenty of the 80x ran training runs while plain so there's precedent enough I guess.

I do think First can certainly do with adding something to match at least Hull Trains graphics if not the more eye-catching TPE design.

After all they are going to compete with LNER and having the same design of train you want something to make yourself stand out!

I had read around May 2021 but as you point out I was originally under the impression it was autumn. If so I happily stand corrected.

I read May somewhere as well, but my previous impression was 'Autumn' like yourself.

I suspect as others have suggested it's going to likely be autumn, September or later most likely. Gives them more of a chance to get the training done as well I would imagine given the logistics inconvenience with that side of things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whist I dont have any figures, I'd be inclined to agree with you, currently there is now catering back on most GWR IET's and its been interesting to see that although very few people are travelling, when the trolley goes through almost everyone is purchasing something, if they had to go and get it I doubt anyone would bother.

The problem I find with GWR is that often the trolley doesn't get to you because it's one trolley in a 9-car set, or one in a pair of 5-cars that has to stay in the front one so there is a competent member of staff there.

ECT will not suffer either of these issues as they have shorter trains and won't normally be doubling them up.

I'd personally rather a trolley than a buffet provided it passes my seat at least once per hour throughout the journey, and ideally quite soon after boarding.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I do think ECT will have a bit of an edge, particularly with the stopping pattern. Non stop Newcastle - Kings X in the services that don't call at Stevenage will be interesting, though most likely they'll be held behind LNER at certain points

 

[hexagon789]

I do think ECT will have a bit of an edge, particularly with the stopping pattern. Non stop Newcastle - Kings X in the services that don't call at Stevenage will be interesting, though most likely they'll be held behind LNER at certain points

Are they not all calling at Stevenage then? I haven't seen a provisional timetable so I presumed everything made the 3 stops.

 

[JonathanH]

Are they not all calling at Stevenage then? I haven't seen a provisional timetable so I presumed everything made the 3 stops.

Example timetables taken from RTT for a week in June are below. Departure times shown.

Monday to Friday
	1S91	1S93	1S95	1S97	1S99
London Kings Cross	0545	1045	1218	1436	2018
Stevenage	0610	-	1241	-	-
Newcastle	0841	1347	1518	1749	2308
Morpeth	0855	1401	1531	1803	2323
Edinburgh	1010	1517	1641	1915	0046
	1E80	1E82	1E84	1E86	1E88
Edinburgh	0614	0911	1114	1612	1958
Morpeth	0738	1030	1234	1726	2116
Newcastle	0757	1051	1250	1747	2133
Stevenage	-	-	-	2023	0026
London Kings Cross	1051	1348	1546	2047	0105
Saturday
	1S91	1S93	1S95	1S97
London Kings Cross	0545	1025	1348	1827
Stevenage	0610	-	-	-
Newcastle	0841	1325	1650	2124
Morpeth	0855	1339	1704	2139
Edinburgh	1006	1457	1825	2256
	1E80	1E82	1E84	1E86	1E88
Edinburgh	0536	0849	1449	1756	1958
Morpeth	0647	1006	1605	1908	2112
Newcastle	0713	1022	1621	1924	2130
Stevenage	-	-	1850	2204
London Kings Cross	1004	1317	1914	2229
Sunday
	1S91	1S93	1S95	1S97	1S99
London Kings Cross	0852	1023	1209	1624	1923
Stevenage	0913	-	1235	-	-
Newcastle	1146	1316	1506	1920	2210
Morpeth	1159	-	1525	1934	2225
Edinburgh	1310	1440	1637	2054	2339
	1Y80	1E82	1E84	1E86	1E88
Edinburgh		1053	1352	1545	1852
Morpeth		1203	1502	1700	2002
Newcastle	0820	1220	1521	1716	2021
Stevenage	-	-	-	2000	2300
London Kings Cross	1116	1456	1816	2021	2322

 

[Jamesrob637]

I do think ECT will have a bit of an edge, particularly with the stopping pattern. Non stop Newcastle - Kings X in the services that don't call at Stevenage will be interesting, though most likely they'll be held behind LNER at certain points

Could be behind LNER as far as York then take the avoiding lines and leapfrog it!

 

[hexagon789]

Example timetables taken from RTT for a week in June are below. Departure times shown.

Monday to Friday
	1S91	1S93	1S95	1S97	1S99
London Kings Cross	0545	1045	1218	1436	2018
Stevenage	0610	-	1241	-	-
Newcastle	0841	1347	1518	1749	2308
Morpeth	0855	1401	1531	1803	2323
Edinburgh	1010	1517	1641	1915	0046
	1E80	1E82	1E84	1E86	1E88
Edinburgh	0614	0911	1114	1612	1958
Morpeth	0738	1030	1234	1726	2116
Newcastle	0757	1051	1250	1747	2133
Stevenage	-	-	-	2023	0026
London Kings Cross	1051	1348	1546	2047	0105
Saturday
	1S91	1S93	1S95	1S97
London Kings Cross	0545	1025	1348	1827
Stevenage	0610	-	-	-
Newcastle	0841	1325	1650	2124
Morpeth	0855	1339	1704	2139
Edinburgh	1006	1457	1825	2256
	1E80	1E82	1E84	1E86	1E88
Edinburgh	0536	0849	1449	1756	1958
Morpeth	0647	1006	1605	1908	2112
Newcastle	0713	1022	1621	1924	2130
Stevenage	-	-	1850	2204
London Kings Cross	1004	1317	1914	2229
Sunday
	1S91	1S93	1S95	1S97	1S99
London Kings Cross	0852	1023	1209	1624	1923
Stevenage	0913	-	1235	-	-
Newcastle	1146	1316	1506	1920	2210
Morpeth	1159	-	1525	1934	2225
Edinburgh	1310	1440	1637	2054	2339
	1Y80	1E82	1E84	1E86	1E88
Edinburgh		1053	1352	1545	1852
Morpeth		1203	1502	1700	2002
Newcastle	0820	1220	1521	1716	2021
Stevenage	-	-	-	2000	2300
London Kings Cross	1116	1456	1816	2021	2322

Thank you very much, I was actually looking at RTT for the data but that makes it much easier to disect

Could be behind LNER as far as York then take the avoiding lines and leapfrog it!

There are a couple of services which I noticed are booked to wait at Darlington or York as unadvertised stops for something to pass

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if that 1958 off Edinburgh will put a considerable dent in Sleeper traffic? 1830 is the last southbound at present.