The North British Type 2s: Classes 21, 22 & 29

[Cheshire Scot]

@Merle Haggard As to your last point, it's all relative as you say. Given all I've really known on the WHL passenger-wise are 156s, I would've loved to have seen and ride behind 21s/29s in action up there and them accelerating away from their last stop (Dalmuir) through my local station (Singer) headed for Queen St.

In that era they would have come through Dalmuir Park and Singer at line speed (hopefully) - but working hard to maintain it. The Dalmuir stop was only added in the sprinter era

 

[Strathclyder]

In that era they would have come through Dalmuir Park and Singer at line speed (hopefully) - but working hard to maintain it. The Dalmuir stop was only added in the sprinter era

Ah, cheers. At any rate, they'd doubtlessly be heard long before they came around the bend!

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Not just you @Strathclyder, I love all the quirky old diesel dinosaur stuff and I’d love to have seen or heard some of them when they were still working (well sort of working anyway).

My affection for them stems from the fact that they were the 'big diesel' in the Playcraft model train selection. Quite what persuaded the French manufacturer to select the D6100s as the flagship of their very limited British range, I don't know - perhaps it was an easier shape to mould in plastic than, say, a class 24 or 25. Maybe their choice contributed to the rapid demise of Playcraft.

I never actually saw a full-sized one in the flesh - they had gone to Scotland by the time I was train-conscious.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Ah, cheers. At any rate, they'd doubtlessly be heard long before they came around the bend!

Admittedly this was post class 29 era, any time I went to Kilbowie Park on a Saturday afternoon - and I only went a few times - I would look out for the mid-day train from Oban passing through about midway through the first half with the class 27 thundering away. Evening matches offered views of trains from both Fort William and Oban.

 

[Strathclyder]

Admittedly this was post class 29 era, any time I went to Kilbowie Park on a Saturday afternoon - and I only went a few times - I would look out for the mid-day train from Oban passing through about midway through the first half with the class 27 thundering away. Evening matches offered views of trains from both Fort William and Oban.

Took a second for 'Kilbowie Park' to register in my head. The small batch of retail units (and the ever-present McDonald's) is all I remember on that site; the football field was long gone by the time I started living here. Here is the place you refer to from the air (middle left). Just about make out Singer Signal Box above the playing field too (attached image copyright of Brian Moyes). Image is dated October 1976 (when 27s ruled on WHL services and nearly 5 years after the last 29s had been withdrawn), so the box had roughly 13 years left here. Amazing how little some aspects of that view have changed and others have changed out of all recognition.

My affection for them stems from the fact that they were the 'big diesel' in the Playcraft model train selection. Quite what persuaded the French manufacturer to select the D6100s as the flagship of their very limited British range, I don't know - perhaps it was an easier shape to mould in plastic than, say, a class 24 or 25. Maybe their choice contributed to the rapid demise of Playcraft.

Much in the same vein as Hornby Dublo modelling the Metro-Vick lol Can imagine a Playcraft D6100 in good condition fetching a decent amount on eBay these days though.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Took a second for 'Kilbowie Park' to register in my head. The small batch of retail units (and the ever-present McDonald's) is all I remember on that site; the football field was long gone by the time I started living here. Here is the place you refer to from the air (middle left). Just about make out Singer Signal Box above the playing field too (attached image copyright of Brian Moyes). Image is dated October 1976 (when 27s ruled on WHL services and nearly 5 years after the last 29s had been withdrawn), so the box had roughly 13 years left here. Amazing how little some aspects of that view have changed and others have changed out of all recognition.

A bit of a digression here.
Kilbowie Park hosted league football from 1966 to 1996 (and having previously been home to Clydebank Juniors covers the full class 21/29 era). Clydebank were in the Scottish Premier League for several seasons in the 1980s. The club was run by the Steedman brothers, Jack and Charlie. There was a Steedman who worked at Kilpatrick railway station who I was told was their brother!
Just a few minutes walk from Singer station it was one of the easiest football grounds to get to by train. In the photo all trace of the private Singer Works station has gone, it was to the right of the signal box (accessed by lines which passed behind the signal box) and had 6 platforms, used by trains conveying workers to the Singer factory which was just across the road - other lines continued into the factory for freight. RailScot strangely claims it closed in 1960 whereas Wikipedia states 1963 which sounds a more realistic date. I do remember seeing Blue Trains in the platforms there. Link to pre electrification photo on the Railscot site is below.
RAILSCOT | Singer Workers Platforms

 

[Inversnecky]

I just got a copy of Sayer’s book today. The last few pairs of pages not cut at the top properly, will have to take a knife to them. Anyone else have that problem?

Other than that, looks like an amazing trove of research.

 

[Strathclyder]

I just got a copy of Sayer’s book today. The last few pairs of pages not cut at the top properly, will have to take a knife to them. Anyone else have that problem?

Other than that, looks like an amazing trove of research.

Mum ordered a copy of Sayer's book (along with his books on the Claytons & Metro-Vicks, the Clayton one from WHSmith as we weren't quick enough on Amazon, and will take longer to arrive as a result) for my 25th today, will report back when it arrives if it has any improperly cut pages.

That caveat aside, am really looking forward to getting my hands on all 3 books.

 

[delt1c]

According to Drivers and 2nd men i knew in the early 70's and had worked on the 29's they said they were smoothest riding loco's they had ever worked on

 

[Cheshire Scot]

With early territory for the Scottish based class 21/29 looking like predominantly work in the Central Belt, on the West Highland and Callander and Oban routes and from Glasgow to Aberdeen and Dundee, plus for the Kittybrewster based fleet use on the then still extensive former GNSR network (with plentiful published photos of these routes and as far west (in the north) as Elgin), I had been wondering if they ever made it to Inverness, particularly as by then the main Inverness Aberdeen services were already in the hands of DMUs. I then found photograph of D6146 departing on the 07.40 Inverness to Keith in 1962 as proof they did - 'Diesels on the Regions - Scottish Region' by Tom Noble. Perhaps the book by Anthony Sayer quoted several times in this thread has further evidence of visits to Inverness - and did they ever venture further north?

 

[Strathclyder]

With early territory for the Scottish based class 21/29 looking like predominantly work in the Central Belt, on the West Highland and Callander and Oban routes and from Glasgow to Aberdeen and Dundee, plus for the Kittybrewster based fleet use on the then still extensive former GNSR network (with plentiful published photos of these routes and as far west (in the north) as Elgin), I had been wondering if they ever made it to Inverness, particularly as by then the main Inverness Aberdeen services were already in the hands of DMUs. I then found photograph of D6146 departing on the 07.40 Inverness to Keith in 1962 as proof they did - 'Diesels on the Regions - Scottish Region' by Tom Noble. Perhaps the book by Anthony Sayer quoted several times in this thread has further evidence of visits to Inverness - and did they ever venture further north?

@D6130 and @Inversnecky may be the two chaps to consult for info on if/when they ever ventured north of Inverness, as I don't have my copy of the aforementioned book yet.

 

[Gloster]

@D6130 and @Inversnecky may be the two chaps to consult for info on if/when they ever ventured north of Inverness, as I don't have my copy of the aforementioned book yet.

Would any of Inverness’s drivers have traction knowledge of the type? I don’t think that drivers from depots further south or east had route knowledge beyond Rose Street. It is still possible that they might have worked beyond Inverness on trials.

 

[Strathclyder]

Would any of Inverness’s drivers have traction knowledge of the type? I don’t think that drivers from depots further south or east had route knowledge beyond Rose Street. It is still possible that they might have worked beyond Inverness on trials.

Good point in regards to trials. Am certain @D6130 will fill us in one way or the other.

 

[Inversnecky]

@D6130 and @Inversnecky may be the two chaps to consult for info on if/when they ever ventured north of Inverness, as I don't have my copy of the aforementioned book yet.

I am sorry, they were gone when I was a toddler! I've never seen one in real life.

 

[Strathclyder]

I am sorry, they were gone when I was a toddler! I've never seen one in real life.

Ah sorry, I worded that poorly. I meant when looking through Mr. Sayer's book on them.

According to Drivers and 2nd men i knew in the early 70's and had worked on the 29's they said they were smoothest riding loco's they had ever worked on

Aye, the 29s (and the 21s when they worked) were held in high regard in that respect by their crews; the Commonwealth bogies fitted to 21s/29s were perhaps one of their best features in retrospect. They were ergonomically ahead (or at least level with) of their contemporaries as far as the cab layout was concerned as well, with all important controls falling easily to hand. Lastly, the 'po-faced' cab windows which were such a detriment to their looks/styling in the eyes of many* greatly aided the crews' view of the road ahead. They did have the potential to be decent locomotives in light of all the above, but it sadly wasn't to be. It honestly is a pity the 29s didn't succeed in the long run (same goes for one missing out on preservation, but that's a rabbit hole I don't wanna go down, 'cos you'll never see me again if I do lol).

* - opening myself up for flak here, but I actually don't mind their looks. You can certainly say they were quirky or that they stood out lol

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Would any of Inverness’s drivers have traction knowledge of the type? I don’t think that drivers from depots further south or east had route knowledge beyond Rose Street. It is still possible that they might have worked beyond Inverness on trials.

The 1962 photo shows the 07.40 Inverness to Keith departing. At that date, given the number of routes still operational, it is likely there would still have been drivers based at both Elgin and Keith who could be candidates to have worked that train. However, the first passenger arrival from the east did not arrive until after 08.00 which might point to Inverness driving that 07.40, or, if there was an earlier freight arrival which brought a driver in from Elgin/Keith, they could drive that train back to their home depot.
Whether Inverness signed that traction would probably depend on whether they had booked work on them - that photographed instance might have been a one off, or it might have been a regular working whichever depot was driving it - and if Inverness did not sign them it is very unlikely they would have worked further north. I'm just interested to know if anyone has unearthed any other photos of them in and around Inverness.

 

[Journeyman]

My affection for them stems from the fact that they were the 'big diesel' in the Playcraft model train selection. Quite what persuaded the French manufacturer to select the D6100s as the flagship of their very limited British range, I don't know - perhaps it was an easier shape to mould in plastic than, say, a class 24 or 25. Maybe their choice contributed to the rapid demise of Playcraft.

I never actually saw a full-sized one in the flesh - they had gone to Scotland by the time I was train-conscious.

It was rather an odd decision for Hornby to market a Class 29 as well, many years after the last ones had gone. The model had some strange inaccuracies, such as the cab front retaining some Class 21 features with a headcode box superimposed over the top, and the headcodes always displayed all four figures, which the prototypes practically never did. Apparently full headcode displays weren't generally in use in Scotland until after the last 29s had gone.

 

[D6130]

Would any of Inverness’s drivers have traction knowledge of the type? I don’t think that drivers from depots further south or east had route knowledge beyond Rose Street. It is still possible that they might have worked beyond Inverness on trials.

Without wishing to spoil @Strathclyder's enjoyment in reading Mr Sayer's excellent book when it arrives, I shall just say that I've had a trawl through the book over the last couple of hours and there are quite a few recorded instances of the Kittybrewster 'blue star' class 21s visiting the Highland Capital in the early- to mid-'sixties and indeed D6146 was allocated to Inverness for a few months when new in 1960, possibly for driver training. However, no records exist of the class ever having gone North of Inverness. More interesting though was the far rarer appearance of Eastfield-based 'red circle' locos on the HML. As part of its trials after transfer to Scotland from the Eastern Region, my pet loco D6130 worked the 19 25 Glasgow Buchanan Street - Inverness express freight service on 28/12/1959; returning with the 18 05 Southbound service the following night. D6133 & D6136 were noted double-heading an Inverness - Aberdeen service on 28/05/1962 and finally re-engined class 29 no. D6121 (or was it originally D6122???!!!) seemed to have had a hankering for the Highland Main Line. It worked an Inverness - Dunfermline special (possibly a military/naval service?) on 26/07/1966, the 15 40 Inverness - Glasgow Buchanan Street express on 07/08/1966 and arrived in Inverness again with a military special, whose originating station was not recorded, on 10/07/1970. I assume that these last three workings must have been manned by Perth men.

It was rather an odd decision for Hornby to market a Class 29 as well, many years after the last ones had gone. The model had some strange inaccuracies, such as the cab front retaining some Class 21 features with a headcode box superimposed over the top, and the headcodes always displayed all four figures, which the prototypes practically never did. Apparently full headcode displays weren't generally in use in Scotland until after the last 29s had gone.

Very true.....but the recent Dapol models are far better, would you not agree?

 

[Journeyman]

Very true.....but the recent Dapol models are far better, would you not agree?

Certainly, but then Hornby's quality has jumped massively upwards over the last 30 years as well. Model railways now are absolutely not what they were when I was a kid! The Hornby 29 was quite well-regarded at the time, if I remember rightly, although I never owned one myself. Their presence in the catalogue and at model shops made me curious about what they were, though, and that's when I first began finding out about their short and not-tremendously-glorious existence.

 

[Strathclyder]

Don't worry about it, @D6130. Just gives me something to look out for when pouring into it. Cheers for the info at any rate.

As for my 'pet' 21/29 locos (if I can have such a thing lol), it's a toss-up between D6109 (the only 21 in BR Blue livery) & D6123 (the prototype Class 29 and now the star of my avatar). That two-tone green livery with the white band, while a unique (?) take on two-tone green, was really rather smart and suited the 29s well.

And those Dapol models. Ooooh, if I ever start collecting, those would be high on the wishlist! Meticulous attention to detail, range of livery variations etc. Truly the last word in the model side of things.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Without wishing to spoil @Strathclyder's enjoyment in reading Mr Sayer's excellent book when it arrives, I shall just say that I've had a trawl through the book over the last couple of hours and there are quite a few recorded instances of the Kittybrewster 'blue star' class 21s visiting the Highland Capital in the early- to mid-'sixties and indeed D6146 was allocated to Inverness for a few months when new in 1960, possibly for driver training. However, no records exist of the class ever having gone North of Inverness. More interesting though was the far rarer appearance of Eastfield-based 'red circle' locos on the HML. As part of its trials after transfer to Scotland from the Eastern Region, my pet loco D6130 worked the 19 25 Glasgow Buchanan Street - Inverness express freight service on 28/12/1959; returning with the 18 05 Southbound service the following night. D6133 & D6136 were noted double-heading an Inverness - Aberdeen service on 28/05/1962 and finally re-engined class 29 no. D6121 (or was it originally D6122???!!!) seemed to have a hankering for the Highland Main Line. It worked an Inverness - Dunfermline special (possibly a military/naval service?) on 26/07/1966, the 15 40 Inverness - Glasgow Buchanan Street express on 07/08/1966 and arrived in Inverness again with a military special, whose originating station was not recorded, on 10/07/1970. I assume that these last three workings must have been manned by Perth men.

Thanks for that 'D6130', interesting stuff from what by all accounts is a very interesting book.

 

[Strathclyder]

Thanks for that 'D6130', interesting stuff from what by all accounts is a very interesting book.

Even though my copy hasn't arrived yet (ordered yesterday), I highly reccommend you pick it up (and, if you're so inclined, the same author's books on the Metro-Vicks & Claytons). By all accounts, it's a veritable bible of data/info and was clearly a labour of love on Mr. Sayer's part which may, as a result, end up being one of the last words on these somewhat enigmatic machines.

I wish him the best in all his future endeavours with the release of his latest book (on the Claytons in the same series as his publications on the NBL Type 2s & Metro-Vicks), but for now I think he's earned a wee break.

 

[d9009alycidon]

One still exists!

Well the power plant believed to be from D6332 does. I used to work for the Power Generation company Aggreko and I got a call to the managers office one day and as I was the resident railway buff was asked about something that had been donated to the SRPS. It turned out that Aggreko had bought some redundant diesel engines from BR and converted them to static generators fitted in containers. It is now at Bo'ness - see here https://realrail.smugmug.com/Trains/NBL-Type-2-Power-Unit/i-QghxLbs

As Aggreko had fitted alternative silencers etc it is unlikely that it sounds like the original

 

[Journeyman]

One still exists!

Well the power plant believed to be from D6332 does. I used to work for the Power Generation company Aggreko and I got a call to the managers office one day and as I was the resident railway buff was asked about something that had been donated to the SRPS. It turned out that Aggreko had bought some redundant diesel engines from BR and converted them to static generators fitted in containers. It is now at Bo'ness - see here https://realrail.smugmug.com/Trains/NBL-Type-2-Power-Unit/i-QghxLbs

As Aggreko had fitted alternative silencers etc it is unlikely that it sounds like the original

I see the start of a replica project!

 

[Merle Haggard]

From reading Tony Sayer's book, it would appear that - following the success of the trial re-engining of D6123 in 1963 - The BRB authorised the expenditure on a further 20 Paxman Ventura engines and it was decided to convert locos from the stored pool in order to maintain the maximum possible number of locos in traffic. Most of those chosen were stored due to fairly minor fire or collision damage and their conversion was deemed to be relatively cost-effective at the time. The 'blue star' class 21s (D6138-57) had been allocated to the Scottish Region from new, firstly at Kittybrewster depot in Aberdeen and then, after its closure at Ferryhill. They were considered to be better maintained - both internally and externally - than their Eastfield sisters and certainly suffered fewer fires and failures, so would probably have been at the end of the list for conversion. The final production series Paxman engine should have gone into D6109, which was already refurbished, repainted in 'Rail Blue' livery and given four character headcode panels at Inverurie works in late 1967; but it was found to have had earlier engine bed modifications which rendered it unsuitable to receive a Ventura. Therefore it was fitted with a refurbished NBL/MAN engine and returned to service for less than a year before withdrawal.....looking for all the world like a 29, but actually still a 21. Shortly afterwards, BR's National Traction Plan, which involved the elimination of all small, non-standard classes, was published and no more class 29 conversions were authorised.

Thank you for the elaboration, it made sense to rebuild the demecs first, if the intention was, eventually, to rebuild them all.

With regard to fairly minor fire damage as a parameter for rebuilding, I did photograph D6107; it was completely black with all glass gone, and the full-height engine access door was badly distorted by heat and hanging off. There were the signs of flames coming through the grilles and burning the bodywork. I remember. looking inside, it was completely charred. Makes major fire damage an interesting concept!

Curiously, another member of the class, D6127 caught fire (on the day NBL went into bankruptcy) and this was described as heavily fire damaged but it was also at the Works at the time, and I don't remember it being as heavily damaged.

Indeed, and as a result of this aborted conversion to a 29, D6109 was the only 21 to wear BR Blue livery (another one for the one-offs in BR Blue thread). Pictures of it in this guise are hard to come by even for a 21/29, but this is about the best of them (if anyone knows the copyright holder for the attached image, please let me know and I'll amend this post accordingly).

In the way of the forum and the emergence of parallel threads; here's my pic of D6109 after withdrawal in poor light

 

[D6130]

Curiously, another member of the class, D6127 caught fire (on the day NBL went into bankruptcy) and this was described as heavily fire damaged but it was also at the Works at the time, and I don't remember it being as heavily damaged.

D6127 caught fire at Greenloaning, between Dunblane and Gleneagles, while double-heading with an unidentified sister the 15 15 Glasgow Buchanan Street - Dundee on 29/03/1962. Engine room and bodywork damage was severe and the loco never worked again. It then spent the following five and a half years stored unserviceable at various locations in the Glasgow area, including St Rollox works, St. Rollox depot and the closed steam sheds at Kipps and Parkhead, before being officially withdrawn on 31/12/1967 and sold to Barnes & Bell of Coatbridge for scrap. It was the shortest-lived 21, having spent less than two and a half years in revenue-earning service and - along with D6125 - was one of the only two in the class never to have received the small yellow warning panels.

 

[Strathclyder]

One still exists!

Well the power plant believed to be from D6332 does. I used to work for the Power Generation company Aggreko and I got a call to the managers office one day and as I was the resident railway buff was asked about something that had been donated to the SRPS. It turned out that Aggreko had bought some redundant diesel engines from BR and converted them to static generators fitted in containers. It is now at Bo'ness - see here https://realrail.smugmug.com/Trains/NBL-Type-2-Power-Unit/i-QghxLbs

As Aggreko had fitted alternative silencers etc it is unlikely that it sounds like the original

I see the start of a replica project!

I would say 'don't go putting ideas in my head!', but if this link is anything to go by, there is a project (in it's very early stages) to create a replica of a Scottish Baby Warship. Of course, this isn't as outlandish as it would appear on the surface: just look at the Baby Deltic Project after all.

Link here - https://northbritish6332.wixsite.com/class21class29loco

In the way of the forum and the emergence of parallel threads; I posted my pic of D6109 on the 'interesting rarities that made it into BR Blue', post no 41 (don't know how to link to a particular post) though I took it under poor light conditions and after withdrawal.

You can link back to specific posts by way of hitting the post number at the top-right of the post you want to link back to. This should take you straight to your desired post in no time at all with it's own URL, which you can then hyper-link as you would any other URL. Attached image shows an example what the URL for this kinda thing would look like:



Hope that helps.

 

[Merle Haggard]

You can link back to specific posts by way of hitting the post number at the top-right of the post you want to link back to. This should take you straight to your desired post in no time at all with it's own URL, which you can then hyper-link it as you would any other URL. Attached image shows an example what the URL for this kinda thing would look like:

View attachment 93608

Hope that helps.

Thank you, I've followed your steps and edited my post.

Incidentally, the Allocation History of BR Diesels and Electrics Third and Final Edition compiled by Roger Harris (phew!) states that D6109 was withdrawn with accident damage, but I don't remember that and it doesn't seem to show in my photo.

 

[Strathclyder]

Thank you, I've followed your steps and edited my post.

Incidentally, the Allocation History of BR Diesels and Electrics Third and Final Edition compiled by Roger Harris (phew!) states that D6109 was withdrawn with accident damage, but I don't remember that and it doesn't seem to show in my photo.

Not a problem, happy to help.

Perhaps @D6130 could clear that one up? I would if I could, but my copy of Mr. Sayer's book isn't here yet lol

 

[D6130]

With regard to fairly minor fire damage as a parameter for rebuilding, I did photograph D6107; it was completely black with all glass gone, and the full-height engine access door was badly distorted by heat and hanging off. There were the signs of flames coming through the grilles and burning the bodywork. I remember. looking inside, it was completely charred. Makes major fire damage an interesting concept!

According to "the bible", D6107 was badly damaged by fire at Dullatur (between Greenhill Upper Junction and Croy) on 03/06/1971 while double-heading the 14 24 Grangemouth-Braehead power station loaded oil tanks with sister no. 6103. Afterwards she spent short spells in store first at Grangemouth, then at Eastfield - being officially withdrawn on 05/10/1971, after which she was dumped with other classmates in the sidings in the middle of the Cowlairs triangle, before being towed to Glasgow Works and meeting the cutter's torch in may 1972.

Incidentally, the Allocation History of BR Diesels and Electrics Third and Final Edition compiled by Roger Harris (phew!) states that D6109 was withdrawn with accident damage, but I don't remember that and it doesn't seem to show in my photo.

Apparently D6109 received relatively minor collision damage at the beginning of April 1968, but as the writing was already on the wall for the class 21s, repairs were not authorised and she was withdrawn on 06/04/1968. After the customary period dumped in the Cowlairs triangle sidings, she was sold for scrap to J. McWilliams of Shettleston in January 1969.