Inversnecky
Member
That’s a bit unfair on dinosaurs. They were far more successful.
By several hundred million years!
£30 on Amazon at the moment.
Are these DVDs still available?
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The North British Type 2s: Classes 21, 22 & 29
- Thread starter Strathclyder
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By several hundred million years!
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I believe the first six locos D6300-6305, which were less powerful at 1,000hp, had engines built by MAN in Nuremberg and shipped over, as patterns. It was the 1,100hp mainstream batch which were built in Glasgow. Yet I never heard of any reliability difference between them.
In any event, what they were known for on the WR was issues with all the auxiliary gear rather than the engines themselves. Fuel pumps and pipework, radiator fans, electrical switches, etc. Much of this NB had physically made themselves rather than buying standard proprietary parts, and once they went under any prospect of spares stopped. That was the reason so many were sidelined for so long - waiting for spares to be made by Swindon.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
That explains the more than passing similarity in sound
I'm surprised they managed to uprate it and at a higher max rpm too. I wonder if the uprated engines were even more unreliable.
Someone had a small album of 29s in a Flickr account I follow, if you're interested I can see if I can find it for you?
Ashley Hill
Established Member
It will be interesting to see how the Project 22 group progress on recreating one of this class.
Strathclyder
Established Member
This the one? (from JohnGreyTurner):
A shot of a 29 and 50 together in that small lot, rare as hen's teeth I should think!
This plays a part of my fascination with them. Had no idea they existed for a long time and the photos of them in Scotland I come across now are like stumbling across a chest full of diamonds; pun most certainly intended, what with the shape of their builders' plates.
Inversnecky
Member
That would be great, thanks!
Bevan Price
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I think they would have shared the relatively "short lives" fate of locos like Classes 15 and 24. The Beeching-Marples closures, the decline in freight traffic, and the spread of dmus had greatly reduced the need for locos in the 1000+ h.p. range, and anything vaguely considered "non-standard" was prone to early disposal.
Inversnecky
Member
This the one? (from JohnGreyTurner):
Where it is or not, some excellent quality photos there, considering they are 50 years old.
Strathclyder
Established Member
Indeed, especially considering the loco types featured. My personal fave 21/29 shot (of all the ones I've found so far at least!) is Michael Mensing's one of the 21 leaving Aberdeen with a Forres-bound train in July 1964 (the first attached image in my opening post, attached again below). The coaches it's hauling and the fine array of semaphore signals are jewels on the crown.
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Inversnecky
Member
Yes, it's a great shot that. I grew up on that line, but by the time I was interested in trains, it was 26/27/47s that were omnipresent on the line.
Journeyman
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Apparently the cabs of these locos were very well designed from an ergonomic perspective.
This the one? (from JohnGreyTurner):
A shot of a 29 and 50 together in that small lot, rare as hen's teeth I should think!
This plays a part of my fascination with them. Had no idea they existed for a long time and the photos of them in Scotland I come across now are like stumbling across a chest full of diamonds; pun most certainly intended, what with the shape of their builders' plates.
That one of the 29 and 50 together is amazing. Well done for finding that.
The North British pioneer Warships D600-604 were likewise well regarded by crews for cab suitability, they were liked more than the mainstream Warships, and in particular they rode much better on 6-axle bogies. But they had a lot of non-standard North British parts, even different to their production Warships which had more of the Swindon approach about them. They also, heavyweight and only 2,000 hp, did not match the main Warships for haulage capability. A lot of emphasis (possibly undue) was given by the WR that the Warships could haul two more coaches than a comparably-powered heavyweight loco like the English Electric D200.
Not always realised is there was an outline contract for a production run of them, another 33, numbered D605-637. But when the WR compared their capability with what the main Warships could do, they wanted to cancel them. North British felt they were too far down the road with them, so that's how the production run of Warships was split, both for factory and major mechanical parts, and how NB built 33 Swindon-style locos D833-865 instead, with a lot of parts intended for the original heavyweights.
Incidentally, the pioneer NB five were never called Warships by WR locomen that I recall, they were always called D600s.
It sounded like a Hymek, at least to my not very expert ear.
Maybe like a Western with one engine out? those Maybachs have the sort of "vroom" most medium-speed diesels have, only rather more harsh & a bit more put-put than a Valenta ( if you could ever hear a Valenta itself over the turbo! ). Valentas themselves remind me of aero engines somewhat.
Strathclyder
Established Member
Not a problem. The small collections always seem to contain the largest amount of gems.
Alongside JGT, Grahame Wareham & Derek J Jones have some of the best NBL Type 2 content on Flickr (gallery/search links here, here, here & here). Here's a few of my picks from both streams:
D6116 & D6109 Dundee West May 1963 Slide 1709 CTLS1314
Explore Brush Veteran's 6041 photos on Flickr!
www.flickr.com
D6103 Cambridge May 1959 Slide 1707 CTLS1320
Explore Brush Veteran's 6041 photos on Flickr!
www.flickr.com
6352 at Gloucester Horton Road MPD_MSS0259_190370
You can almost smell the paint on North British Type 2 diesel hydraulic No. 6352, in ex-works condition at Gloucester Horton Road MPD in 19th March 1970. Could this have been the last one of the Class to receive a overhaul? New from Glasgow in July 1962 and first allocated to Laira (83D), the...
www.flickr.com
D6133 at Dundee_MSS0178_210770
North British Type 2 diesel electric No. D6133 at Dundee on 21st July 1970. New from Glasgow in November 1959 and allocated to Ipswich (32B), it was withdrawn from Eastfield (65A) in December 1971 and cut-up at St Rollox Works during July 1972.
www.flickr.com
D6334 at Exeter St Davids_MSS0305_120970
North British Type 2 diesel hydraulic No. D6334 runs light through Exeter St Davids on 12th September 1970. New from Glasgow in December 1960 and first allocated to Laira (83D), it had a service life of just under 11 years, being withdrawn in October 1971. The loco met it's end at Swindon Works...
www.flickr.com
D819/6338 at Exeter MPD_MSS0560_120571
Diesel hydraulic heaven at Exeter MPD on a sunny 12th May 1971. Among the fine array of seven locomotives on show are 'Warship' Class No. D819 'Goliath' and North British Type 2 No. 6338. D819 was withdrawn from service in October of that year and cut up at Swindon Works during March 1972.
www.flickr.com
Almost a totally different era. What I'd give to be able to experience either on that line, particularly the NBLs.
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D6130
Established Member
The photo of D6133 at Dundee is interesting in that somebody appears to have left the boiler water tank filler cover open, which could have been slightly dodgy if the loco had been running under the wires. The following photo of D6132 clearly illustrates the non-standard number spacing (D6 132) applied to this loco, for some unknown reason, when it was re-engined at Inverurie Works in 1966. You can tell that it is an Inverurie conversion by the angled top corners of the yellow warning panel, whereas the St Rollox conversions - such as D6133 above - had rounded corners.
Royston Vasey
Established Member
This thread inspired me to do a bit more background research for interest, and from pictures I too was surprised to find that the Class 21/29 and 22 had spoked wheels, rather than discs, as I can now see others have noticed! The contemporary Class 41 (another NBL product) also had spoked wheels, at least at first.
The Class 25s and Class 24s (BR designed and built) had disc wheels but far more perforated discs which look at first sight like spokes but aren't. By the Class 26, BR were fitting what we would recognise today as a disc locomotive wheel. Presumably BR were using steel or wrought iron and NBL were still using cast iron? Swindon produced their distinctive profile of discs for the Westerns and Warships at around the same time.
I struggled to find many clear images and don't want to clutter the thread with hotlinks anyway, but this incredible resource confirms and there are a few images online that are at the right angle and with enough contrast and backlight to be able to see the spokes.
http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html
This also states the Class 41 wheels were later replaced with discs. I think there is an error here that the 83s were stated to have spoked wheels, but I think this should be Class 84.
Was there a specific reason to produce spoked wheels or it just a traditional loco builder sticking to established techniques?
Were the wheels prone to fractures and failures?
I referred to Swindon above, and of course that workshop was one of the greatest and most advanced/skilled railways works in the world at that time.
The Class 25s and Class 24s (BR designed and built) had disc wheels but far more perforated discs which look at first sight like spokes but aren't. By the Class 26, BR were fitting what we would recognise today as a disc locomotive wheel. Presumably BR were using steel or wrought iron and NBL were still using cast iron? Swindon produced their distinctive profile of discs for the Westerns and Warships at around the same time.
I struggled to find many clear images and don't want to clutter the thread with hotlinks anyway, but this incredible resource confirms and there are a few images online that are at the right angle and with enough contrast and backlight to be able to see the spokes.
http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html
This also states the Class 41 wheels were later replaced with discs. I think there is an error here that the 83s were stated to have spoked wheels, but I think this should be Class 84.
Was there a specific reason to produce spoked wheels or it just a traditional loco builder sticking to established techniques?
Were the wheels prone to fractures and failures?
You've answered one of my questions already here
I referred to Swindon above, and of course that workshop was one of the greatest and most advanced/skilled railways works in the world at that time.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Yes, that's the one.
@Strathclyder beat me to it!
Well it gives me an idea and I can relate to the Hymek sound
Strathclyder
Established Member
Is second-hand nostalgia a thing? 'Cos I just got a huge dose of it from that! The NBL & Clayton pics are standouts there, particularly the ones of the Clayton at Glasgow Central's Platform 2 and the one at the end of two on-shed with a split-headcode Peak lurking at the back.
Wonderful, wonderful stuff all round there. Music seals it for me.
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D6130
Established Member
This thread inspired me to do a bit more background research for interest, and from pictures I too was surprised to find that the Class 21/29 and 22 had spoked wheels, rather than discs, as I can now see others have noticed! The contemporary Class 41 (another NBL product) also had spoked wheels, at least at first.
The Class 25s and Class 24s (BR designed and built) had disc wheels but far more perforated discs which look at first sight like spokes but aren't. By the Class 26, BR were fitting what we would recognise today as a disc locomotive wheel. Presumably BR were using steel or wrought iron and NBL were still using cast iron? Swindon produced their distinctive profile of discs for the Westerns and Warships at around the same time.
I struggled to find many clear images and don't want to clutter the thread with hotlinks anyway, but this incredible resource confirms and there are a few images online that are at the right angle and with enough contrast and backlight to be able to see the spokes.
http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html
This also states the Class 41 wheels were later replaced with discs. I think there is an error here that the 83s were stated to have spoked wheels, but I think this should be Class 84.
Was there a specific reason to produce spoked wheels or it just a traditional loco builder sticking to established techniques?
Were the wheels prone to fractures and failures?
You've answered one of my questions already here
I referred to Swindon above, and of course that worksho
This thread inspired me to do a bit more background research for interest, and from pictures I too was surprised to find that the Class 21/29 and 22 had spoked wheels, rather than discs, as I can now see others have noticed! The contemporary Class 41 (another NBL product) also had spoked wheels, at least at first.
The Class 25s and Class 24s (BR designed and built) had disc wheels but far more perforated discs which look at first sight like spokes but aren't. By the Class 26, BR were fitting what we would recognise today as a disc locomotive wheel. Presumably BR were using steel or wrought iron and NBL were still using cast iron? Swindon produced their distinctive profile of discs for the Westerns and Warships at around the same time.
I struggled to find many clear images and don't want to clutter the thread with hotlinks anyway, but this incredible resource confirms and there are a few images online that are at the right angle and with enough contrast and backlight to be able to see the spokes.
http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html
This also states the Class 41 wheels were later replaced with discs. I think there is an error here that the 83s were stated to have spoked wheels, but I think this should be Class 84.
Was there a specific reason to produce spoked wheels or it just a traditional loco builder sticking to established techniques?
Were the wheels prone to fractures and failures?
You've answered one of my questions already here
I referred to Swindon above, and of course that workshop was one of the greatest and most advanced/skilled railways works in the world at that time.
p was one of the greatest and most advanced/skilled railways works in the world.
For those who are interested, the locations of the photos in Mr Denyer's video are as follows: Fort William old shed (x2); Glasgow Queen Street; Fort William old yard; Eastfield depot (x3); Aberdeen Ferryhill depot; Glasgow Queen Street (x3); Haymarket station; Haymarket depot; Oban (x20); Fort William old station; Thornton Junction; Garelochhead; Thornton Junction again; Glasgow Central (x2); Polmadie depot (x3); Dunfermline Lower and Polmadie depot again. (in that order)......and the music is 'Arrival' by ABBA, with Benny Andersson simulating the bagpipes on a synthesizer.Is second-hand nostalgia a thing? 'Cos I just got a huge dose of it from that! The NBL & Clayton pics are standouts there, particularly the one of the Clayton at Glasgow Central's Platform 2 and the one at the end of two on-shed with a split-headcode Peak lurking at the back.
Wonderful, wonderful stuff all round there. Music seals it for me.
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Strathclyder
Established Member
Cheers for that.
I wanted to say Polmadie for the last one, but as it didn't have any local landmarks visible for me to get my bearings (I.E the Old Rutherglen/Caledonia Rd tower blocks in nearby Hutchesontown), I thought better of guessing, as chances are I would've been way off the mark lolCheers for ID-ing the music too. Fits the subject matter really rather well, although you wouldn't think so at first. Lastly, dare I stick my neck out & say that synthesized bagpipes sound better than the real thing?
(proceeds to hide under desk)An incredible resource indeed. Cheers for the link!
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Merle Haggard
Established Member
There was one thing I didn't understand about the Paxman rebuilds, and it's this - but maybe it's covered in the new book.
Only the earlier, red circle, ones were re-engine, for some reason. On a visit to Glasgow Works in the summer of '66 stored there was D6107, clearly having been on fire (from the shape of the flame/smoke damage around the grilles, while moving) and cannibalised. It didn't have yellow panels, so presumably had been out of use since 1961-2. But it was later rebuilt, even though there were other red circle ones still in use (for instance, D6105 was a Queen St banker, an arduous duty, until 1968). Bearing in mind I don't think it was the intention to re-engine the lot, choosing one that needed a major amount of work seems eccentric.
The blue square ones seemed to be in much better condition, at least externally. On a summer 1968 visit I saw a number on their way to scrapyards and these all looked well - still with shiny paintwork. Rumour was that they'd spent years stored in sheds (Keith and Elgin were mentioned) with the doors locked and the windows bricked up. These had odometers on an axlebox and I recall the mileages indicated on some were very low (7,000 - 8,000) though this might have been since last works visit rather than whole life.
On a personal note, D6100s hauled the trains on my first trips to Mallaig and Oban, and I was despondent that I wasn't a little older, and hadn't made the journeys a few years earlier; a side window K2 with a Glen name to Fort William, or even a Black 5 to Oban, would have been so interesting, all I had was a boring D6100. I think that possibly every enthusiast wishes he'd seen the previous generation of traction, though.
Only the earlier, red circle, ones were re-engine, for some reason. On a visit to Glasgow Works in the summer of '66 stored there was D6107, clearly having been on fire (from the shape of the flame/smoke damage around the grilles, while moving) and cannibalised. It didn't have yellow panels, so presumably had been out of use since 1961-2. But it was later rebuilt, even though there were other red circle ones still in use (for instance, D6105 was a Queen St banker, an arduous duty, until 1968). Bearing in mind I don't think it was the intention to re-engine the lot, choosing one that needed a major amount of work seems eccentric.
The blue square ones seemed to be in much better condition, at least externally. On a summer 1968 visit I saw a number on their way to scrapyards and these all looked well - still with shiny paintwork. Rumour was that they'd spent years stored in sheds (Keith and Elgin were mentioned) with the doors locked and the windows bricked up. These had odometers on an axlebox and I recall the mileages indicated on some were very low (7,000 - 8,000) though this might have been since last works visit rather than whole life.
On a personal note, D6100s hauled the trains on my first trips to Mallaig and Oban, and I was despondent that I wasn't a little older, and hadn't made the journeys a few years earlier; a side window K2 with a Glen name to Fort William, or even a Black 5 to Oban, would have been so interesting, all I had was a boring D6100. I think that possibly every enthusiast wishes he'd seen the previous generation of traction, though.
Strathclyder
Established Member
@Merle Haggard As to your last point, it's all relative as you say. Given all I've really known on the WHL passenger-wise are 156s, I would've loved to have seen and ride behind 21s/29s in action up there and them accelerating away from their last stop (Dalmuir) through my local station (Singer) headed for Queen St.
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randyrippley
Established Member
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At a guess those rebuilt were the ones most likely to benefit from the work.
Given the low fleet availability taking working machines for rebuilds would have reduced the working fleet even more, besides which the surgery was so major that an extra bit of fire damage would be irrelevant.
As for not selecting the newer machines, presumably they were more reliable anyway - and being younger less in need of major overhaul.
You don't fix something that's working, you fix things that aren't. Elsewhere I've read the intention was to upgrade the lot, but that was countermanded by BRB as wasting money on a non-standard class
D6130
Established Member
From reading Tony Sayer's book, it would appear that - following the success of the trial re-engining of D6123 in 1963 - The BRB authorised the expenditure on a further 20 Paxman Ventura engines and it was decided to convert locos from the stored pool in order to maintain the maximum possible number of locos in traffic. Most of those chosen were stored due to fairly minor fire or collision damage and their conversion was deemed to be relatively cost-effective at the time. The 'blue star' class 21s (D6138-57) had been allocated to the Scottish Region from new, firstly at Kittybrewster depot in Aberdeen and then, after its closure at Ferryhill. They were considered to be better maintained - both internally and externally - than their Eastfield sisters and certainly suffered fewer fires and failures, so would probably have been at the end of the list for conversion. The final production series Paxman engine should have gone into D6109, which was already refurbished, repainted in 'Rail Blue' livery and given four character headcode panels at Inverurie works in late 1967; but it was found to have had earlier engine bed modifications which rendered it unsuitable to receive a Ventura. Therefore it was fitted with a refurbished NBL/MAN engine and returned to service for less than a year before withdrawal.....looking for all the world like a 29, but actually still a 21. Shortly afterwards, BR's National Traction Plan, which involved the elimination of all small, non-standard classes, was published and no more class 29 conversions were authorised.
Strathclyder
Established Member
Indeed, and as a result of this aborted conversion to a 29, D6109 was the only 21 to wear BR Blue livery (another one for the one-offs in BR Blue thread). Pictures of it in this guise are hard to come by even for a 21/29, but this is about the best of them (if anyone knows the copyright holder for the attached image, please let me know and I'll amend this post accordingly).
Attachments
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Strathclyder
Established Member
Found that one through the first video link you shared, was perchance hoping for sound despite knowing it was more than likely silent. Despite that, it's still a fascinating historical record with exceptionally high quality for the period in which it was shot. The 22s that appear are the main highlight for me ofc, but the whole thing is a gem. It's like I say: 'Yesterday's Mundane, Today's History'.
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