The North British Type 2s: Classes 21, 22 & 29

[Inversnecky]

It’s very impressive that Sayer has a photo of every single NBL in the book.

 

[Strathclyder]

It’s very impressive that Sayer has a photo of every single NBL in the book.

Pictures of D6127 (the 21 that caught fire at Greenloaning on 29th March 1962 after less than 2-and-a-half years' service as per post #86) must've been the most difficult by far to unearth; props to Mr. Sayer for keeping at it until he did.

 

[delt1c]

One thing that seems to be apparent is that if BR had used the knowledge from the Pilot scheme locos they should have been able to design and build several classes of loco ( each power range) using the beat points of each class. For example the NBL 21’s cabs and bogies , EE power units, Crompton Electrical. Whilst it would have taken a longer construction period it would have produced all round versatile locos and saved money.

 

[Merle Haggard]

According to "the bible", D6107 was badly damaged by fire at Dullatur (between Greenhill Upper Junction and Croy) on 03/06/1971 while double-heading the 14 24 Grangemouth-Braehead power station loaded oil tanks with sister no. 6103. Afterwards she spent short spells in store first at Grangemouth, then at Eastfield - being officially withdrawn on 05/10/1971, after which she was dumped with other classmates in the sidings in the middle of the Cowlairs triangle, before being towed to Glasgow Works and meeting the cutter's torch in may 1972.


Apparently D6109 received relatively minor collision damage at the beginning of April 1968, but as the writing was already on the wall for the class 21s, repairs were not authorised and she was withdrawn on 06/04/1968. After the customary period dumped in the Cowlairs triangle sidings, she was sold for scrap to J. McWilliams of Shettleston in January 1969.

Thank you for the information. We may be talking at cross purposes about D6107 because my description of its fire damage was when it was at Glasgow Works in the summer of 1966, before rebuilding to class 29. D6107 must be unique in being seriously damaged by fire on two occasions.

D6109 is another odd case; my photo of one end of it (on the other thread) shows no signs of collision damage and it happens that a photo I took of Hunslet shunters stored next to it shows its other end, which similarly bore no trace at all of impact.

My recollection was that I took the D6109 photos on the Eastfield shed dump; could this be regarded as 'Cowlairs Triangle'? It was over 50 years ago so my recollection isn't complete, and I sometimes tested a shed permit to the limits...

Regarding only D6125/7 never receiving yellow warning panels - I'm pretty sure that D6107 didn't have them until rebuilding, which is slightly different.

 

[hexagon789]

Here's something I was thinking about related to these classes, I believe the Hydraulics had six fixed power notches, later increased to 7 on the second batch.

Were the diesel-electrics the same or did they have fully variable control as with most diesel-electric locos of the period?

 

[D6130]

Here's something I was thinking about related to these classes, I believe the Hydraulics had six fixed power notches, later increased to 7 on the second batch.

Were the diesel-electrics the same or did they have fully variable control as with most diesel-electric locos of the period?

One aspect of these locomotives in which 'the bible' is sadly lacking is that of the controls and cab interiors, possibly because relevant diagrams and photos are hard to come by. In fact there isn't a single cab interior shot, other than a very dark rear three-quarter view of the collision-damaged driver's side of the no. 2 end cab of D6135....and there isn't a lot of detail visible.

I seem to remember many, many years ago, the late O. S. Nock, in his "Railway Practice and Performance" feature in Railway Magazine, publishing a timing record of a run from Glasgow Queen Street to Fort William in the cab of a class 29. I can't give you an exact quote after all these years, but IIRC, Mr Nock described the ascent of the Cowlairs incline as being made with the power controller in the maximum notch 8, with 1,500 amps on the meter. If anyone can find a link to that article, I would be very interested to see it again.

The one and only time I can recall visiting the cab of a 29 - 6119 in November 1971, shortly before withdrawal - I can't, unfortunately remember how many power notches were marked on the controller slot, if indeed any.

 

[36270k]

Here's something I was thinking about related to these classes, I believe the Hydraulics had six fixed power notches, later increased to 7 on the second batch.

Were the diesel-electrics the same or did they have fully variable control as with most diesel-electric locos of the period?

Early 21's ( Red Circle ) would have a notched controller
Late 21's ( Blue Star ) would have a variable controller.

 

[Journeyman]

Early 21's ( Red Circle ) would have a notched controller
Late 21's ( Blue Star ) would have a variable controller.

Interesting. Is this why only Red Circle locos were re-engined?

 

[D6130]

Thank you for the information. We may be talking at cross purposes about D6107 because my description of its fire damage was when it was at Glasgow Works in the summer of 1966, before rebuilding to class 29. D6107 must be unique in being seriously damaged by fire on two occasions.

D6109 is another odd case; my photo of one end of it (on the other thread) shows no signs of collision damage and it happens that a photo I took of Hunslet shunters stored next to it shows its other end, which similarly bore no trace at all of impact.

My recollection was that I took the D6109 photos on the Eastfield shed dump; could this be regarded as 'Cowlairs Triangle'? It was over 50 years ago so my recollection isn't complete, and I sometimes tested a shed permit to the limits...

Regarding only D6125/7 never receiving yellow warning panels - I'm pretty sure that D6107 didn't have them until rebuilding, which is slightly different.

Apologies for the misunderstanding regarding D6107. According to 'the bible', this loco sustained severe fire damage at an unknown location on 09/10/62, after which it did the usual rounds of storage at St Rollox depot, Parkhead depot and St Rollox works yard. It received it's Paxman engine on 21/04/1967 and emerged from the works, resplendent in Rail Blue, on 02/06/1967. Unfortunately its early career as a class 29 was blighted by several teething troubles. It failed at Larbert on a passenger service on 12/06/1967, again on the 17 25 Fort William - Glasgow Queen St (with through sleepers to London Kings Cross) on 29/06/1967 and then utterly disgraced itself by catching fire at Crianlarich on 05/01/1968. This resulted in a visit to Inverurie works for an unclassified repair and modifications in April 1968.

Regarding the storage of withdrawn locomotives in and around Eastfield depot, it would appear that they were dumped in the two sidings inside the Cowlairs triangle - next to Cowlairs Power Signal Box and across the main line from the South end of the depot - until they could be towed away for scrapping. If those sidings were full, other withdrawn locos would be stored on the shorter dead end roads at the North end of the depot.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Thanks for the information, D6130 (don't know how to show you in blue); I'm still finding out new stuff 50 odd years after the events! And, I'm afraid to say, in the 1960s crossing running lines for a photo was acceptable.

D6107 in 1966 did give the impression of being out of service for a very long time, a time capsule with no yellow ends.

Not sure whether this thread or the '... unusual locos to receive B.R. Blue' one is the best place to ask, but was D6109 the first withdrawal of a loco. in fully applied B.R. Blue?

As I mentioned earlier I was disappointed that I didn't get to Scotland until the diesels had taken over in the North; but, looking back, they were interesting times in themselves. Scouring the country for NBL, Barclay and Hunslet diesel shunters (who can forget "and alight from the bus at Fishwives' Causeway" in the Shed Directory? - try asking for that of a Glaswegian bus conductor) I regretted they weren't ex C.R. or N.B. 'Pugs' but looking back there was a much shorter time window to see the diesels in full use and 'clear' them. The saying 'the ordinary nowadays will be the good old days eventually' is very true.

 

[Strathclyder]

Not sure whether this thread or the '... unusual locos to receive B.R. Blue' one is the best place to ask, but was D6109 the first withdrawal of a loco. in fully applied B.R. Blue?

Metro-Vick D5701 may be the best contender as far as diesels go, barring accident/fire damage victims. But still an interesting question regardless.

 

[Highlandspring]

Scouring the country for NBL, Barclay and Hunslet diesel shunters (who can forget "and alight from the bus at Fishwives' Causeway" in the Shed Directory? - try asking for that of a Glaswegian bus conductor)

Fishwives’ Causeway is opposite Craigentinny in Edinburgh so a bus conductor in Glasgow would indeed be nonplussed by it.

 

[Taunton]

What were the causes of the multiple fires in the Scottish locos, as described above and elsewhere? The WR ones did not suffer from this.

 

[D6130]

What were the causes of the multiple fires in the Scottish locos, as described above and elsewhere? The WR ones did not suffer from this.

Apparently the majority of the fires were caused by serious engine oil and fuel leakages from the NBL/MAN engines. Sometimes the oil/fuel seeped into the generators and even the traction motors - a definite recipe for disaster!

 

[Cowley]

What were the causes of the multiple fires in the Scottish locos, as described above and elsewhere? The WR ones did not suffer from this.

Unrelated to your post @Taunton, but was it you that had quite an amusing story about a D63xx clonking into something at Taunton while you were there once?

 

[Gloster]

One thing that seems to be apparent is that if BR had used the knowledge from the Pilot scheme locos they should have been able to design and build several classes of loco ( each power range) using the beat points of each class. For example the NBL 21’s cabs and bogies , EE power units, Crompton Electrical. Whilst it would have taken a longer construction period it would have produced all round versatile locos and saved money.

As I have written in another post (which I can’t find), this was similar to what BR intended: buy small batches of each design, evaluate them and then come back with large orders for a handful of designs. There would have been some standardisation, but whether it would have gone to the extent of saying, “All locos are to be fitted with X’s generator, Y’s traction-motors, etc.”, is unclear. However, politics and lobbying got in the way of this plan, and orders for a lot of different designs were quickly placed.

 

[Journeyman]

As I have written in another post (which I can’t find), this was similar to what BR intended: buy small batches of each design, evaluate them and then come back with large orders for a handful of designs. There would have been some standardisation, but whether it would have gone to the extent of saying, “All locos are to be fitted with X’s generator, Y’s traction-motors, etc.”, is unclear. However, politics and lobbying got in the way of this plan, and orders for a lot of different designs were quickly placed.

There was also considerable pressure to speed up the replacement of steam. At the time the Modernisation Plan was published, it was fully expected that steam would survive well into the seventies, but BR's rapidly worsening financial situation made it desirable to speed things up. This resulted in some extremely dubious locos being ordered in large quantities.

 

[hexagon789]

Early 21's ( Red Circle ) would have a notched controller
Late 21's ( Blue Star ) would have a variable controller.

Due to the limitations of red circle presumably while blue star used control air so was theoretically infinitely variable.

One aspect of these locomotives in which 'the bible' is sadly lacking is that of the controls and cab interiors, possibly because relevant diagrams and photos are hard to come by. In fact there isn't a single cab interior shot, other than a very dark rear three-quarter view of the collision-damaged driver's side of the no. 2 end cab of D6135....and there isn't a lot of detail visible.

I seem to remember many, many years ago, the late O. S. Nock, in his "Railway Practice and Performance" feature in Railway Magazine, publishing a timing record of a run from Glasgow Queen Street to Fort William in the cab of a class 29. I can't give you an exact quote after all these years, but IIRC, Mr Nock described the ascent of the Cowlairs incline as being made with the power controller in the maximum notch 8, with 1,500 amps on the meter. If anyone can find a link to that article, I would be very interested to see it again.

The one and only time I can recall visiting the cab of a 29 - 6119 in November 1971, shortly before withdrawal - I can't, unfortunately remember how many power notches were marked on the controller slot, if indeed any.

Thanks anyway, I'll have a search for the article.

There was also considerable pressure to speed up the replacement of steam. At the time the Modernisation Plan was published, it was fully expected that steam would survive well into the seventies, but BR's rapidly worsening financial situation made it desirable to speed things up. This resulted in some extremely dubious locos being ordered in large quantities.

And on the Scottish Region they were ironically replaced by steam locomotives which covered for them for 4 years until more reliable classes were available in sufficient numbers to finally replace steam

 

[Strathclyder]

And on the Scottish Region they were ironically replaced by steam locomotives which covered for them for 4 years until more reliable classes were available in sufficient numbers to finally replace steam

Directly related to this, the last A4s in BR service were the ones that were parachuted into the Scottish Region to cover for the ailing NBLs on the Glasgow Buchanan St - Aberdeen (via Forfar) express services. Last out-and-back run was on 3rd Sep. 1966 behind 60019 Bittern.

Link to the Eastbank Model Railway Club site's page on the A4's swansong/indian summer - http://www.eastbank.org.uk/a4.htm

 

[hexagon789]

Directly related to this, the last A4s in BR service were the ones that were parachuted into the Scottish Region to cover for the ailing NBLs on the Glasgow Buchanan St - Aberdeen (via Forfar) express services. Last out-and-back run was on 3rd Sep. 1966.

That's precisely what I was thinking of, though I believe they had an allocation of A1s/A2s as well? Though I think they were more common on Edinburgh-Aberdeen.

 

[Strathclyder]

I seem to remember many, many years ago, the late O. S. Nock, in his "Railway Practice and Performance" feature in Railway Magazine, publishing a timing record of a run from Glasgow Queen Street to Fort William in the cab of a class 29. I can't give you an exact quote after all these years, but IIRC, Mr Nock described the ascent of the Cowlairs incline as being made with the power controller in the maximum notch 8, with 1,500 amps on the meter. If anyone can find a link to that article, I would be very interested to see it again.

What I'd give to hear a 29 flat out climbing Cowlairs now!

 

[Taunton]

Unrelated to your post @Taunton, but was it you that had quite an amusing story about a D63xx clonking into something at Taunton while you were there once?

It's here :

Delays due to train failures in the BR era. | Page 2 | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

 

[Strathclyder]

That's precisely what I was thinking of, though I believe they had an allocation of A1s/A2s as well? Though I think they were more common on Edinburgh-Aberdeen.

No idea: not my area of expertise (kinda drifting off-topic here anyway lol). A subject perhaps worthy of it's own thread.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Fishwives’ Causeway is opposite Craigentinny in Edinburgh so a bus conductor in Glasgow would indeed be nonplussed by it.

Sorry, I realised that afterwards. In those days, I think it was to get to either South Leith or Seafield (can't remember which) - just the tongue twisting name stuck in my mind.
Certainly on buses in Glasgow, coming back into the city from a shed visit and specifying Sauchiehall Street as the destination was a challenge for an Englishman to pronounce to the satisfaction of the conductor - and surrounding passengers!

 

[Cowley]

It's here :

Delays due to train failures in the BR era. | Page 2 | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

Ah yes.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

That's precisely what I was thinking of, though I believe they had an allocation of A1s/A2s as well? Though I think they were more common on Edinburgh-Aberdeen.

I recall Dundee had an allocation of A2s.
A3s would very occasionally appear in an A4 diagram but I am not sure where these, or any A1s were allocated.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Metro-Vick D5701 may be the best contender as far as diesels go, barring accident/fire damage victims. But still an interesting question regardless.

I've looked at the S.L.S. Journals for 1968, which often give exact dates for withdrawals, and D6109 (along with D6126) was withdrawn 6/4/68. D5701 was withdrawn by the L.M., along with D5702/05/06/07/08/11/12/14/16/17/19, on 7/9/68 (rendering the class extinct). Quite likely, though, that the L.M.R. withdrawal date may have been some time after D5701 (and at least some of the others) last ran.

In the summer of '68, the focus of attention of most enthusiasts was of course not centred on the demise of short-lived diesels...

With regard to the suggestion that D6109 was withdrawn with 'severe accident damage' (the Roger Harris book) may have been based on a passing glimpse where the observer was confused by the black hole where the 4-charachter headcode panels had been ( those at both ends were removed). Does the new book give a reason for its demise?

 

[Taunton]

Sorry, I realised that afterwards. In those days, I think it was to get to either South Leith or Seafield (can't remember which) - just the tongue twisting name stuck in my mind.

When I was in Edinburgh, colleague had a grandmother who had been one of the Edinburgh fishwives, and he was proud of it. Sir Walter Scott also wrote about them in his books, which is how when the LNER named their D11s after the "Scott" characters, 62678 Luckie Mucklebackit came to be named after one of the ladies in question.

 

[Strathclyder]

I've looked at the S.L.S. Journals for 1968, which often give exact dates for withdrawals, and D6109 (along with D6126) was withdrawn 6/4/68. D5701 was withdrawn by the L.M., along with D5702/05/06/07/08/11/12/14/16/17/19, on 7/9/68 (rendering the class extinct). Quite likely, though, that the L.M.R. withdrawal date may have been some time after D5701 (and at least some of the others) last ran.

Cheers. My NBL Type 2 & Metro-Vick books arrived today (they are birthday presents tho, so won't be able to look through them 'til tomorrow lol), so will get back to you if those dates appear in them (I have no reason to doubt you ofc, am just one for double/triple-checking lol).

 

[hexagon789]

I recall Dundee had an allocation of A2s.
A3s would very occasionally appear in an A4 diagram but I am not sure where these, or any A1s were allocated.

It's probably the Dundee A2s I'm thinking of for Edinburgh-Aberdeen then, these never seemed to be booked for A4s unlike the Glasgow trains.