London to Glasgow Non-Stop

[Ianno87]

It could depart Euston 22.15/22.20 & pass the Highland sleeper around Crewe as the sleeper is at Crewe around 23.50, looking at the pathing, there's an AWC to Manchester at 22.00 next AWC is at 22.30 Wolves which use the FL, other departures are on the SL or DC, & no ECS movements timed around then either

Two track railway starts 2230.

Besides as said (a few times now), there’s lots of freight in the way, with critical journey times, and not enough places to loop it.

And another thing, why would you want to do it at night? It’s a PR thing, and PR things generally happen in the day. Today shows how you can path it as a one off (or two off).

Also, presumably timers on the train need to be able to verify timings at Mile posts etc that won't be visible in darkness.

 

[jfollows]

We used to crawl between Motherwell and Glasgow for other services, so if it stops perhaps it would have just caught them up closer to Glasgow (or totally failed as another train would be in its path instead)

1S82 16:30 Euston-Glasgow was booked 3 minutes in front of 2B09 19:54 Lanark-Glasgow which stopped at (Belshill,) Uddingston and Cambuslang so it's always possible if 1S82 was a little late that it would end up following 2B09 from Uddingston Junction.

 

[mcmad]

Carstairs is 90mph from before Carstairs South Junction (73m00ch), then 95mph past the station (73m35ch to 74m23ch) whence 100mph until past Lanark Junction.
Carstairs Station is at 73m49ch.

There is a long standing 50 TSR for a mile through Carstairs on both up and down mains which isn't going away until the renewal in a couple of years so suspect next week will be a similar result if they even bother running it.

 

[Ianno87]

There is a long standing 50 TSR for a mile through Carstairs on both up and down mains which isn't going away until the renewal in a couple of years so suspect next week will be a similar result if they even bother running it.

Logically, it would be worth going through the OTMR data from today's run to see if it realistically could be bettered next week.

 

[hexagon789]

Logically, it would be worth going through the OTMR data from today's run to see if it realistically could be bettered next week.

Ignore the Carstairs TSR. That's 60-90 seconds saved...

(And before anyone gets on on the safety point - I'm not being serious, but it would be the easiest way of bettering today's run.)

 

[ABB125]

It’s 20mph through Carlisle, so a stop with a 2 minute dwell time will cost 2’30”.

How difficult would it be to increase the speed through Carlisle?

 

[jfollows]

There is a long standing 50 TSR for a mile through Carstairs on both up and down mains which isn't going away until the renewal in a couple of years so suspect next week will be a similar result if they even bother running it.

That'd do it indeed - 50mph for 1 mile versus 90mph for 1 mile will take 32 seconds longer. Not accounting for deceleration/acceleration which will make the difference greater.

 

[zwk500]

How difficult would it be to increase the speed through Carlisle?

Very. At the south end you've got all the junctions and at the north end you've got a bridge. Between the two the station is listed, and the sidings see regular use so straightening out the lines would not be as straightforward as google might make it look. It'd also be pointless to do it for one train.

 

[Ianno87]

Ignore the Carstairs TSR. That's 60-90 seconds saved...

(And before anyone gets on on the safety point - I'm not being serious, but it would be the easiest way of bettering today's run.)

Assuming the TSR is still there next week, is there much room for improvement, or was the driver pretty much as "on the money" as was possible?

 

[David57]

How was this crewed, I assume a Preston Driver (I know one who signs the London-Glasgow route), or were two Drivers involved?

 

[yorkie]

How difficult would it be to increase the speed through Carlisle?

Just a gentle reminder for any such ideas to be posted in Speculative Ideas please

 

[ABB125]

Very. At the south end you've got all the junctions and at the north end you've got a bridge. Between the two the station is listed, and the sidings see regular use so straightening out the lines would not be as straightforward as google might make it look. It'd also be pointless to do it for one train.

Thanks.

Just a gentle reminder for any such ideas to be posted in Speculative Ideas please

Apologies - the question has been comprehensively answered as above, so hopefully no more needs to be said!

 

[hexagon789]

Assuming the TSR is still there next week, is there much room for improvement, or was the driver pretty much as "on the money" as was possible?

They were ahead by 45 seconds at one point - I suppose the issue is whether the present infrastructure allows that to be maintained TSRs and all or not.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

As far as I am aware, when going through a TSR driver has to wait until rear of the train has cleared the end of TSR before accelerating, if the guard or another driver were in back cab and on comms with driver, a good few seconds could be shaved off if informing driver exactly when clear

 

[Carlisle]

Some of the tilt speeds were higher back then and the APT-P did not really break the speed limits - it did not exceed the 125mph ceiling by much more than 5mph.

Shap was either 5 or 10 mph higher for normal services for a while

 

[Ianno87]

As far as I am aware, when going through a TSR driver has to wait until rear of the train has cleared the end of TSR before accelerating, if the guard or another driver were in back cab and on comms with driver, a good few seconds could be shaved off

Some trains (Class 66s for one) are fitted with a timer that, when pressed as the front passes the end of the TSR, will sound when the rear is clear.

 

[Dougal2345]

Unless you mean in terms of the future, possibly with different traction?

Surely the answer is to bring the surviving APT-P bits out of retirement and do another run with that?

I understand they've taken a lot of the seats out, making it lighter, and with two power cars and only a few coaches, it would go like a rocket!

 

[mmh]

Agreed. Makes you wonder how many other services have been delayed to make sure this one gets through?

Quite. I think it's notable that numerous posters in this thread are also very vocal on other threads explaining why it's completely impossible to change timetables for the benefit of intermediate passengers on end to end journeys. The paths are never available...

 

[Ianno87]

Quite. I think it's notable that numerous posters in this thread are also very vocal on other threads explaining why it's completely impossible to change timetables for the benefit of intermediate passengers on end to end journeys. The paths are never available...

It's a different kettle of fish for a one-off special run when passenger (and train) numbers are reduced, and a future timetable full of trains that has to last day in, day out for over a decade.

 

[hexagon789]

Shap was either 5 or 10 mph higher for normal services for a while

The 80 limit at the summit?

Surely the answer is to bring the surviving APT-P bits out of retirement and do another run with that?

I understand they've taken a lot of the seats out, making it lighter, and with two power cars and only a few coaches, it would go like a rocket!

Now you're talking, but they've only one power car left I believe unfortunately.

 

[nlogax]

Now you're talking, but they've only one power car left I believe unfortunately.

..which at least until 2018 resembled a crumbling iron shed on the outside. Can't imagine how the electrical gubbins inside look!

 

[hexagon789]

A quote from Avanti in the Scotsman says that they aren't trying again until next summer. It seems the path next week was only if today's run had to be cancelled not if it failed to beat the record, so that's it for now.

 

[Carlisle]

The 80 limit at the summit?

Yes, I believe it was 90 for a while

 

[cambsy]

Ive seen logs of the APT hitting 135mph plus on normal runs, and not just the inaugural run form Glasgow Central to Euston,where think it hit 138-140mph near Castlethorpe as was few mins late by then, it certainly when very well at times but mostly the 125mph range, I think if allowed run like it could the APT would have done it in just over 3hrs 30 mins.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, I believe it was 90 for a while

Thank you, I did believe it had been higher but of course you can't look up historic sectional appendices on the Network Rail websites only the current one.

That would certainly have saved some seconds and in tandem with the Carstairs TSR being removed I think you could better the record by getting on for two mins with some rough calculations.

At least next year Avanti should, all being well, have the advantage of the Carstairs TSR being removed.

 

[MadCommuter]

A quote from Avanti in the Scotsman says that they aren't trying again until next summer. It seems the path next week was only if today's run had to be cancelled not if it failed to beat the record, so that's it for now.

That's a shame, but useful info. Will Carstairs be sorted by then?

 

[WatcherZero]

On the plus side they had a higher sustained speed than the record. The APT in the record hit 140mph while this train was limited to 125mph but it still only missed the target by 21 seconds.

 

[Ianno87]

On the plus side they had a higher sustained speed than the record. The APT in the record hit 140mph while this train was limited to 125mph but it still only missed the target by 21 seconds.

I'm guessing guessing APT would have been more limited by historic speed limits through the likes of Rugby and Crewe that are now much higher.

 

[hexagon789]

That's a shame, but useful info. Will Carstairs be sorted by then?

You would hope so.

On the plus side they had a higher sustained speed than the record. The APT in the record hit 140mph while this train was limited to 125mph but it still only missed the target by 21 seconds.

The highest in the log is 129.5mph

I'm guessing guessing APT would have been more limited by historic speed limits through the likes of Rugby and Crewe that are now much higher.

Depends what the APT differentials were, given Carstairs was APT 115 in 1984.

 

[Killingworth]

If the record was being beaten by 10 minutes wouldn't it be more of an achievement, given the checks experienced previously? 10 seconds might well stand in a record book but there are so many differences in circumstances that comparisons are largely academic.

Nevertheless a good effort today.