London to Glasgow Non-Stop

[Ianno87]

Great post, and I agree it was a great thing to do.

Seconded.

 

[Railperf]

Maybe they could try it on the East Coast next time

Challenging as the East Coast records all featured high speed running well over 125mph. Unlikely to be allowed today.

 

[bramling]

As has been said upthread, the run today was probably a publicity exercise to demonstrate the time that atrain can get to Glasgow under current operating conditions. It was carried out using a train that was due to be moved as ECS, so the additional cost was minimal. The UK network is currently far safer than it was 40 years ago and this test proved that the cost in journey time was insignificant. The trains are being used to the best of their abilities, which of course include safety, in spite of any facetious comments. Just what is the problem that you have with this run.

I’d say my view largely chimes with this. The run was a good way of demonstrating what can be achieved today, albeit with quite a bit of special attention paid to regulating.

It does, however, show that despite being seen as a failed project, the ATP is still holding its own 40 years later, which is quite an achievement even if things didn’t go to plan.

I’d like to see the railway offer an express London to Glasgow and Edinburgh schedule through the day, but do realise the challenges involved in doing it.

 

[AM9]

I’d say my view largely chimes with this. The run was a good way of demonstrating what can be achieved today, albeit with quite a bit of special attention paid to regulating.

It does, however, show that despite being seen as a failed project, the ATP is still holding its own 40 years later, which is quite an achievement even if things didn’t go to plan.

I’d like to see the railway offer an express London to Glasgow and Edinburgh schedule through the day, but do realise the challenges involved in doing it.

I'm sure that a full ETCS implementation could make it viable as a regular service but I suspect that HS2 will offer a much easier solution before the WCML signalling is so equipped.

 

[sprinterguy]

Now you're talking, but they've only one power car left I believe unfortunately.

Not that it makes it any more likely to happen, but there are two surviving APT-P power cars. 49002 as part of the preserved set at Crewe Heritage Centre, and 49006 in the National Collection which was previously at Shildon but was moved to Crewe a couple of years ago.

 

[DarloRich]

I am sad that the record was missed by only 21 seconds. Very bad luck.

I assume the APT was allowed to go faster than 125mph which makes the Avanti effort even more impressive.

( still grumpy about it mind!)

 

[The Planner]

I'm not a full ETCS implementation could make it viable as a regular service but I suspect that HS2 will offer a much easier solution before the WCML signalling is so equipped.

Lots of people beavering away looking at getting Warrington and Preston over to ETCS before HS2 turns up.

 

[QueensCurve]

People are so negative on here.

It's the wrong way, the APT had a stop... this is progress. We should be encouraging more folks from London<>Glasgow to travel by train. It's also a good (very) initial buzz for the train vs HS2, which will see 20-25 mins off Glasgow times at Phase 1, with another 20-25 off at Phase 2.

Which rather illustrates the lack of ambition in "HS2" The PLM Ligne a Grande Vitesse when it opened in 1981 cut the Paris to Lyon (Part Dieu?) journey by more than half to 2h.

 

[Grumpy Git]

What a pity those in charge back in the day ultimately "lost their nerve" with the APT, we really could have had a "world beating" train. At least those in charge today are showing more patience with the 769's!

 

[Ianno87]

Which rather illustrates the lack of ambition in "HS2" The PLM Ligne a Grande Vitesse when it opened in 1981 cut the Paris to Lyon (Part Dieu?) journey by more than half to 2h.

Because the average speed of the PLM doesn't even compare to what the WCML can do today, particularly south of Crewe. A much harder bar to improve on.

 

[Skymonster]

The APT had two 20mph TSRs, two 50mph TSRs, a 65mph TSR, a signal stop of two minutes and nine seconds, and ran on infrastructure in the Rugby and Crewe areas that demanded much lower speeds than the 390 was limited to. By @Railperf’s admission the 390 was ten minutes up at Crewe, so on today’s infrastructure there’s no reason why an APT would not be that much up too and be well ahead of a 390 into Glasgow.

So the numbers suggest the APT has the moral upper hand in terms of performance as well as the record. The real improvement over the APT will come with HS2, not an artificially enhanced run over exiting metals. Avanti had its chance, gave it a great go, and it didn’t quite work. To me it now feels a bit like someone sometime in future trying to beat the Mallard’s steam record - not quite right - and the west coast record should belong to APT. So I hope it’s left alone now and not tried again.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which rather illustrates the lack of ambition in "HS2" The PLM Ligne a Grande Vitesse when it opened in 1981 cut the Paris to Lyon (Part Dieu?) journey by more than half to 2h.

Not quite. The 2h timing didn’t come about until Phase 2 of the TGV-SE opened in 1983. A bit like how the London - Manchester journey time won’t (nearly) halve until Phase 2 of HS2 opens.

The APT had two 20mph TSRs, two 50mph TSRs, a 65mph TSR, a signal stop of two minutes and nine seconds, and ran on infrastructure in the Rugby and Crewe areas that demanded much lower speeds than the 390 was limited to. By @Railperf’s admission the 390 was ten minutes up at Crewe, so on today’s infrastructure there’s no reason why an APT would not be that much up too and be well ahead of a 390 into Glasgow.

So the numbers suggest the APT has the moral upper hand in terms of performance as well as the record. The real improvement over the APT will come with HS2, not an artificially enhanced run over exiting metals. Avanti had its chance, gave it a great go, and it didn’t quite work. To me it now feels a bit like someone sometime in future trying to beat the Mallard’s steam record - not quite right - and the west coast record should belong to APT. So I hope it’s left alone now and not tried again.

I disagree. I hope Avanti do have another go. I would much rather the record belong to a train that has been a workhorse of the line for nearly two decades (and will surely make 3), rather than a prototype that had little revenue service.

 

[RailWonderer]

A railwayman needs to say if a TSR could be waived as a one off and if so, how much a time saving would there be if the Carstairs TSR was waived. It would still be cutting it thin I think. Maybe they could raise the line speed on a section or two and the record would be had easily. Doing another attampt with the current infrastructure seems futile. This run went perfectly given all the infrastructure and line speed restraints.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What a pity those in charge back in the day ultimately "lost their nerve" with the APT, we really could have had a "world beating" train. At least those in charge today are showing more patience with the 769's!

At the time of the APT record run, the WCML was beginning its slide to obsolescence and unreliability, particularly its electrical side.
I'm not sure a squadron APT service would have functioned well on that infrastructure.
Much of the pain, cost and time taken for WCRM was to remedy the failing infrastructure and fit it out for regular 125mph running (originally aiming at 140mph).
The fast line OHLE had to be completely replaced for regular 125mph use, together with the entire electrical supply feed.
I suspect the service would have endured a "saw tooth" speed profile, high speed one minute but crippled soon after as route restrictions began to bite.
HSE rules would also have eventually played a part in limiting speed and tilt, and mixing APT and slower services would have been a nightmare.
APT would also eventually have had to adopt some ATP controls (like today's TASS).
I think BR were still a long way from a sustainable service introduction for APT.

 

[hexagon789]

Not that it makes it any more likely to happen, but there are two surviving APT-P power cars. 49002 as part of the preserved set at Crewe Heritage Centre, and 49006 in the National Collection which was previously at Shildon but was moved to Crewe a couple of years ago.

Didn't realise the NRM had one, I only really thought of the one at Crewe.

I assume the APT was allowed to go faster than 125mph which makes the Avanti effort even more impressive.

The log isn't conclusive but the highest sectional average is only 129.5mph over 4.75mi.

 

[Statto]

Any other record attempt the train would need to be at least 2 early going through Carlisle, simply because of Carstairs [until Carstairs is remodelled to allow higher speeds], great attempt though considering the ATP was allowed to go above 125mph when the ATP did it's record attempt..

 

[rebmcr]

A railwayman needs to say if a TSR could be waived as a one off and if so, how much a time saving would there be if the Carstairs TSR was waived. It would still be cutting it thin I think. Maybe they could raise the line speed on a section or two and the record would be had easily. Doing another attampt with the current infrastructure seems futile. This run went perfectly given all the infrastructure and line speed restraints.

Indeed. As I understand it, TSRs are designed around the cumulative effects of many trains passing at certain speeds — not around a specific threshold which one train would break.

There is also precedent in the Watford area for the ICWC TOC getting TSRs raised, and in return paying for the increased nightly maintenance, which is what a lower TSR would actually be preventing.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I disagree. I hope Avanti do have another go. I would much rather the record belong to a train that has been a workhorse of the line for nearly two decades (and will surely make 3), rather than a prototype that had little revenue service.

A rerun would seem fairly pointless. I don’t see how beating the record by a tiny margin would be a great PR boost. If, for example, they did manage to beat the record by 7 seconds on a rerun it might be considered a major story in the rail industry and amongst rail enthusiasts but it would barely get a mention on the news and wouldn’t enthuse the public who would forget it when they saw a story about a cat being stuck up a tree on the next news bulletin. If they could beat it by 10 or 15 minutes that would be a different story but beating a time set nearly 40 years ago by a few seconds and after a multi-£billion upgrade isn’t a massive achievement.

 

[HarryL]

If they got just 21 seconds behind the record while respecting a maximum of 125mph and all of the speed restrictions, it does beg the question of if they managed to get an exception to safely run a bit beyond 125 and none of the restrictions were present, how much more time could they shave off the record.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Ignoring speed restrictions would require a lot of work to ensure it was safe. Wasting man hours on a vanity project at a time of potential budget and job cuts at Network Rail could, and should, backfire. People also need to bear in mind that as this record attempt was largely a PR stunt the way PR works isn’t it is positive or it remains as now. PR stunts can backfire and if they did try, and fail, again if it was reported at all it would be negative publicity. They tried and they narrowly failed. Leave it at that.

 

[YorksLad12]

Adding in my twopenneth... it's a bit like Formula 1 track records.

APT holds the record for the WCML as it was. The Pendo holds the record for the 'new', remodelled WCML.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Adding in my twopenneth... it's a bit like Formula 1 track records.

APT holds the record for the WCML as it was. The Pendo holds the record for the 'new', remodelled WCML.

Agreed, which is why those saying "wait until the southern HS2 line is finished....." make no sense as it's basically "a different track"!

 

[Skymonster]

Agreed, which is why those saying "wait until the southern HS2 line is finished....." make no sense as it's basically "a different track"!

That’s exactly why the run of the APT needs to be left alone now - since Avanti failed yesterday and specifically because a new track is in the offing, the APT‘s record should be cherished as a part of WCML history and legend (like Mallard and Flying Scotsman on the ECML) and be preserved forever, leaving new London-Glasgow records to HS2.

 

[Ianno87]

That’s exactly why the run of the APT needs to be left alone now - it should be a part of the WCML history (like Mallard and Flying Scotsman on the ECML) that should be preserved forever, leaving new records to the new HS2.

Although yesterday's run would be "the West Coast Route Modernisation" record (given the 2006 attempt would predate the likes of Rugby and MK being upgraded).

 

[Butts]

Three hours 53 Minutes from London to Glasgow ....

Just to put it into perspective..

Wonder what the record is for an Embraer E190 as it regularly completes the journey in well under an Hour

Forget HST ...HSA is already here

 

[AM9]

Three hours 53 Minutes from London to Glasgow ....

Just to put it into perspective..

Wonder what the record is for an Embraer E190 as it regularly completes the journey in well under an Hour

Forget HST ...HSA is already here

It's not about how fast that train was or how fast this one is, - ultimately it's about how fast available modes can get passengers from where they start mtheir journey to where it ends. On a city centre to city centre trip, a sub-4 hour train time beats many of the sub hour flights when all the niff naff hassle of security, baggage and to & from airport journeys are added in. Of course not true for all those whose origins/estinations are a 10 minute bus ride from the terminal. In the more environmentally considerate future, changes are more likely to have negatibe impacts on flying than surface travel.

 

[Mag_seven]

Although yesterday's run would be "the West Coast Route Modernisation" record (given the 2006 attempt would predate the likes of Rugby and MK being upgraded).

I don't get this argument for having different records for different sets of infrastructure - at the end of the day the APT still holds the record for the fastest run between Euston and Glasgow down the WCML. It still beats yesterdays run by 21 seconds and that is all that counts.

 

[Skymonster]

If someone came along today and said they were going to try to bust Mallard’s steam speed record, people would say it was sacrilege. Likewise it’s time to leave the APT alone now as a record-breaking example of what British engineering could do.

 

[AM9]

I don't get this argument for having different records for different sets of infrastructure - at the end of the day the APT still holds the record for the fastest run between Euston and Glasgow down the WCML. It still beats yesterdays run by 21 seconds and that is all that counts.

At the end of the day, APT never achieved practicality, whereas Pendolinos do it every day. If the effective linespeed limits are different from what they were 30 years ago, there is no meaningful comparison between the two runs and the 21 seconds is irrelevant. Both did as well as they could on the day.

If someone came along today and said they were going to try to bust Mallard’s steam speed record, people would say it was sacrilege. Likewise it’s time to leave the APT alone now as a record-breaking example of what British engineering could do.

Including relaxing some maintenance and safety considerations on linespeeds. Why is everbody so precious about a record achieved in different conditions that obscure any difference in the actual performance of the trains.

 

[gallafent]

In the more environmentally considerate future, changes are more likely to have negatibe impacts on flying than surface travel.

Definitely, though it's an interesting question in this context. For these short-haul routes, it will be very interesting to watch, for example, the development of electric flight options, and of course for long haul there's always bionic duckweed (thankfully not relevant to this discussion of London<->Glasgow of course!).