Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

[Dent]

Then like shops, just boycott the ones that do. They'll soon stop when there's empty trains/buses.

It's only possible to boycott something if there is an alternative, but on most routes one bus or train company has a monopoly.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Will any TOC decide to mandate masks (looking at you, TfL and LNER!)? Even though if LNER did it, it would possibly just kick a relevant portion of its passengers to the Midland Mainline.

I would say a vanishingly small proportion of LNER's customers feel that strongly and be sufficiently route-savvy that they would shift to the MML, as all of the following would need to apply:

a) The MML as a reasonable alternative for their destination (Leeds, maybe)
b) They know the MML is even there
and either c) They feel that strongly about masks that they'll refuse to use the service
or d) They won't just travel anyway and not wear the mask unless challenged (and given how few staff interactions there seem to be at the moment, they wouldn't be)

 

[Bantamzen]

So people are already asking if TOCs are going to continue to mandate masks.

https://twitter.com/TippingsTipples/status/1414837587492196352?s=19

Its going to get messy...

 

[fraser158]

I feel very sorry for the various staff members of retail and transport who are going to be caught in the middle of this.

Either get rid of masks all-together or keep them mandatory until they are not “recommended”.

 

[43066]

I don't like the sound of this atall. Even though it will no longer be legal to have to wear face masks on public transport, the government is going to leave it to all the transport operators to decide on whether passengers are required to wear face masks on their services! So if we're not doing so, they can refuse us entry to a bus/coach/train? And in the case of trains, if a conductor finds people not wearing face masks they can demand we get off at the next station??!!

Will have to see what happens over the coming days. I do hope a load of train, bus, coach operators aren't going to insist on this face mask wearing nonsense to remain on their services.

In practice it’ll no doubt be very similar to the current situation, with broad brush “self certification” style exemptions. Staff will be required make some half hearted efforts to remind passengers of the policy (TM announcements etc.) but in practice, just as now, it’s neither practical nor reasonable to expect staff to enforce this kind of thing.

If a rogue overzealous staff member with their own agenda is encountered, a clear statement that “I’m not required to wear one according to your company’s own policy” should be sufficient, with a complaint if necessary.

 

[Class 33]

So people are already asking if TOCs are going to continue to mandate masks.

https://twitter.com/TippingsTipples/status/1414837587492196352?s=19

Its going to get messy...

On the flip side of that, I've Tweeted a couple of operators to say I'm really looking forward to the end of this face mask nonsense next Monday, and being able to enjoy some long train journeys on their services again. As wearing face masks AND seeing loads of other people wearing them makes me feel uncomfortable. So I'm so glad that this will be over. They've not replied though, a complete blank silence from them in response!

 

[Bantamzen]

On the flip side of that, I've Tweeted a couple of operators to say I'm really looking forward to the end of this face mask nonsense next Monday, and being able to enjoy some long train journeys on their services again. As wearing face masks AND seeing loads of other people wearing them makes me feel uncomfortable. So I'm so glad that this will be over. They've not replied though, a complete blank silence from them in response!

To be fair I don't think that TOCs have decided one way or another, at least most.

 

[102 fan]

It's only possible to boycott something if there is an alternative, but on most routes one bus or train company has a monopoly.

Car?

 

[big_rig]

Eurostar have already come out and said masks will be mandatory after 19 July.

 

[takno]

I would say a vanishingly small proportion of LNER's customers feel that strongly and be sufficiently route-savvy that they would shift to the MML, as all of the following would need to apply:

a) The MML as a reasonable alternative for their destination (Leeds, maybe)
b) They know the MML is even there
and either c) They feel that strongly about masks that they'll refuse to use the service
or d) They won't just travel anyway and not wear the mask unless challenged (and given how few staff interactions there seem to be at the moment, they wouldn't be)

Based on my last journey with them I'd say a small and diminishing proportion of the passengers are taking any notice of the current rules, and apart from the odd announcement there is a high level of studied indifference from staff, who appear to have been instructed not to intervene.

Much as I hate their reservations policy, they have been light-touch if anything on facemasks, and I don't see how they'd manage to do a 360 on that and suddenly start actively enforcing a not-law even if they wanted to.

 

[kristiang85]

Eurostar have already come out and said masks will be mandatory after 19 July.

Any news if they are going back to a fuller timetable? I've got some vouchers to use and will happily put up with two hours of masking for some decent Belgian beer...

 

[DustyBin]

This is another step towards the normalisation of the abnormal as far as I’m concerned. The message appears to be “we’ll remove the mandate as long as you act as if it’s still in place”. I wouldn’t be surprised if in a couple of months time the mandate is reimposed “to avoid conflict and confusion” and because “it’s what the public want”. I’m sorry but I feel like we’re being played here.

 

[richa2002]

Eurostar have already come out and said masks will be mandatory after 19 July.

That was predictable to be honest considering they need to abide by French/Belgian rules too.

 

[Dent]

Car?

I expect where a car is an option most people would be doing that anyway. I think in most cases public transport is already the options of last resort.

 

[102 fan]

I expect where a car is an option most people would be doing that anyway. I think in most cases public transport is already the options of last resort.

They won't win the traffic back then.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

This is another step towards the normalisation of the abnormal as far as I’m concerned. The message appears to be “we’ll remove the mandate as long as you act as if it’s still in place”. I wouldn’t be surprised if in a couple of months time the mandate is reimposed “to avoid conflict and confusion” and because “it’s what the public want”. I’m sorry but I feel like we’re being played here.

^^ this

 

[bramling]

In practice it’ll no doubt be very similar to the current situation, with broad brush “self certification” style exemptions. Staff will be required make some half hearted efforts to remind passengers of the policy (TM announcements etc.) but in practice, just as now, it’s neither practical nor reasonable to expect staff to enforce this kind of thing.

If a rogue overzealous staff member with their own agenda is encountered, a clear statement that “I’m not required to wear one according to your company’s own policy” should be sufficient, with a complaint if necessary.

I got shrieked at by a driver changing ends at an open-air station back in February time. This was dealt with by the operator concerned and appropriate action taken, as even allowing some allowance for the emotive nature of things it was unacceptable. The hysterical nature of it wasn’t far short of the guy buying milk in the Nisa.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The latest announcement doesn’t leave me with joy.

Masks will be enforced in some places still, possible draconian vaccine passports to have a pint, I want proper, 2019 levels of normality thanks not a normal that makes, the locktavists comfortable

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So each TOC will decide mask policy for itself?
Policy in Wales and Scotland could/will be different (certainly different dates) which will make it interesting crossing borders.
Will RDG set a policy (for all its TOC members)?
Will Merseyrail be different?
Would GBR do any differently if it existed?

I don't detect a uniform policy here, Sajid Javid has already instanced he would not wear a mask on an empty Avanti train back to Birmingham.
easyJet and Ryanair will continue to enforce mask-wearing (possibly more linked to rules across the EU rather than UK domestic traffic).

I also detect a view that forcing mask wearing makes it harder to persuade passengers to return (ie trains are still "unsafe").
From the BBC transport correspondent:

Covid: Bus and train firms must decide whether to require masks - BBC News

Transport companies have been weighing up whether to mandate masks or not. If you're flying, chances are you will still need to wear one; many airlines have decided to keep masks as a requirement for travel.
But most train, bus and coach operators in England will now decide they won't be mandatory, following the lead set by rail and passenger groups.
Companies will still ask passengers to wear masks when services are busy. But there's concern among many transport operators that a blanket requirement could make people think that public transport is more dangerous than other indoor settings, like restaurants and pubs. We haven't yet heard from the London Mayor about whether masks will be required on Transport for London-run services.
Wales and Scotland both still require anyone travelling on public transport to wear a mask by law, meaning that those taking services that cross the border from England will have notices reminding them to wear a face covering unless exempt. It is the second time this has happened during the course of the pandemic.

 

[MikeWM]

The latest announcement doesn’t leave me with joy.

Masks will be enforced in some places still, possible draconian vaccine passports to have a pint, I want proper, 2019 levels of normality thanks not a normal that makes, the locktavists comfortable

I was rather more unhappy last night than I have been for a while. It really doesn't feel like we've been set 'free', does it? And what crumbs we've just been given back will probably be removed again at the review in September.

Combine with the news from Ireland and France - both requiring vaccine passports for all manner of things going forwards - and today's vote to force care home workers in England to be vaccinated or lose their jobs - and we seem to be travelling in more the wrong direction than ever.

 

[island]

I'm sure the numerous laws on railway trespass could be wheeled out if required.

But someone with a ticket is not trespassing. They have permission to be on the railway by virtue of the contract evidenced by their ticket. The railway cannot unilaterally revoke that permission nor retrospectively make it subject to additional conditions that were not notified to the passenger at purchase.

 

[MikeWM]

But someone with a ticket is not trespassing. They have permission to be on the railway by virtue of the contract evidenced by their ticket. The railway cannot unilaterally revoke that permission nor retrospectively make it subject to additional conditions that were not notified to the passenger at purchase.

A lot of ticket machines (though not all) now have a popup message that says you are required to wear a mask on your journey, and you are required to 'agree' to that popup in order to buy a ticket Presumably that qualifies as 'notification'?

 

[quantinghome]

This is another step towards the normalisation of the abnormal as far as I’m concerned. The message appears to be “we’ll remove the mandate as long as you act as if it’s still in place”. I wouldn’t be surprised if in a couple of months time the mandate is reimposed “to avoid conflict and confusion” and because “it’s what the public want”. I’m sorry but I feel like we’re being played here.

Based on what's happened in the Netherlands I'd be surprised if some restrictions weren't reimposed after a couple of weeks.

 

[yorksrob]

Based on what's happened in the Netherlands I'd be surprised if some restrictions weren't reimposed after a couple of weeks.

I don't see why the Dutch Govement losing their nerve would automatically lead to us changing course.

 

[35B]

I don't like the sound of this atall. Even though it will no longer be legal to have to wear face masks on public transport, the government is going to leave it to all the transport operators to decide on whether passengers are required to wear face masks on their services! So if we're not doing so, they can refuse us entry to a bus/coach/train? And in the case of trains, if a conductor finds people not wearing face masks they can demand we get off at the next station??!!

Will have to see what happens over the coming days. I do hope a load of train, bus, coach operators aren't going to insist on this face mask wearing nonsense to remain on their services.

Just to be clear, the change on Monday will be that the law will no longer compel mask wearing in public transport; not that it is "no longer legal to have to wear face masks on public transport". Operators will be able to set their own policies, which are enforceable, that may go beyond what the law generally requires. There are levers within the byelaws that would provide for that - I'd have thought the general provisions about an instruction of a member of staff would be sufficient. I know that analogies with supermarkets are not generally welcome, but they have managed quite effectively to limit admission to their stores for various clothing requirements without requiring the force of law in order to do so.

As others have said, and though our views on mask wearing differ, whether that approach would be wise or effective on the part of an operator is a different question.

I don't see why the Dutch Govement losing their nerve would automatically lead to us changing course.

The Dutch experience - which came from a different starting point - does show that the desire for relaxing restrictions has limits, and that triggering large scale additional outbreaks may cross them.

 

[MrTurbostar170]

Have any bus operators announced what they're doing yet? I saw BorderBus are doing a twitter poll with 50-something % saying yes and 40-something saying no.

 

[quantinghome]

The latest announcement doesn’t leave me with joy.

Masks will be enforced in some places still, possible draconian vaccine passports to have a pint, I want proper, 2019 levels of normality thanks not a normal that makes, the locktavists comfortable

We all want 2019 normal. Unfortunately the speed at which the delta variant is spreading means that even with the very high levels of vaccine efficacy we have achieved, a complete removal of restrictions and a return to normal social interaction will produce a big exit wave of hospital admissions and deaths. Clearly some railforum members believe that's a price worth paying to return to normal. But we need to recognise that this forum is not representative of the general view of the country.

 

[yorksrob]

I've just heard the latest "rent-a-quote" on the radio news decrying the Government for allowing political decisions to influence the July 19th loosening of restrictions.

Well, fancy that - a Government taking into account political considerations as well as medical ones.

They also pointed out that scientists couldn't agree on that policy because "no one can predict what will happen". We'll be a long time waiting until all scientists agree on what will happen in the future.

 

[Ianno87]

Have any bus operators announced what they're doing yet? I saw BorderBus are doing a twitter poll with 50-something % saying yes and 40-something saying no.

1) Yes/No to what? Is that "Yes" to keeping face masks, or "Yes" to dropping them?

2) Have we not learned since 2016, that public polls don't settle anything...

 

[birchesgreen]

I am waiting for a govt minister to visit a nightclub when it reopens and try and look trendy

Maybe Johnson can wear some trendy clubber gear over his shirt and tie