Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

[DustyBin]

There's nothing quite like a Reds Under The Bed story from the Express is there? It's truly a different world.

I couldn't see anyone quoted in the article actually advocating for 'endless lockdowns'. Not that I have any time for communist academics - but it would be nice for the Express's headlines to occasionally match the article.

I could say the same about the Guardian and it's constant scaremongering, however "play the ball not the man" (or in this case newspaper) springs to mind....

Do you not agree that the pursuit of zero covid and the end of capitalism would necessitate very lengthy (if not endless) lockdowns?

 

[Freightmaster]

Except those who don’t want masks are portrayed as making a fuss, while those who do want masks are portrayed as getting on with things. Which is somewhat inaccurate to say the least.

Surely it is the other way round: people who don't wear masks after next Monday will by definition be the ones who are 'getting on with things'
while people who insist on still wearing masks after the 19th will be needlessly 'making a fuss' (largely for virtue signalling reasons, no doubt)




MARK

 

[quantinghome]

I could say the same about the Guardian and it's constant scaremongering, however "play the ball not the man" (or in this case newspaper) springs to mind....

Sure, hence why I commented that the Express headline wasn't substantiated.

Do you not agree that the pursuit of zero covid and the end of capitalism would necessitate very lengthy (if not endless) lockdowns?

Not sure what the 'end of capitalism' has to do with lockdowns tbh. Pretty tricky for the workers of the world to unite if they're all stuck at home...

And no I don't agree. Many countries have succeeded in achieving and sustaining near zero covid and seem to have had a much better time of it overall. In those cases a very hard, early, initial lockdown accompanied by a working test, trace, isolate and protect policy allowed them to reopen sooner and with far fewer restrictions than we've had to deal with over the last year.

 

[yorksrob]

And no I don't agree. Many countries have succeeded in achieving and sustaining near zero covid and seem to have had a much better time of it overall. In those cases a very hard, early, initial lockdown accompanied by a working test, trace, isolate and protect policy allowed them to reopen sooner and with far fewer restrictions than we've had to deal with over the last year.

Those weren't societies where the virus was endemic, so they're not relevant examples to our current situation.

 

[35B]

Those weren't societies where the virus was endemic, so they're not relevant examples to our current situation.

They're highly relevant to why we're where we are now, though. The government's failures last year to prevent Covid taking hold mean that it does not get the benefit of the doubt when taking liberalising measures.

However, now that we are in this situation, the role of social distancing, masks, Covid-safe cleaning regimes, vaccines, etc. is not about that utopia (now unachievable, arguments will persist about whether it ever was), but about how we best manage in the circumstances we are in today.

As regards Prof Michie, I thought her response to of all people Richard Madeley was extremely revealing about her conscious and unconscious biases. Unlike some - especially the dog whistle blowers at the Express etc. - I don't regard her Communism as the cause of her belief in masks. It's far more likely that, having chosen an ideology (and faction within that ideology) that is both authoritarian and statist (the CPB is the home of the pro-Stalin tankies following the disintegration of the Warsaw Pact), she is pre-disposed to measures that emphasise the role of government over that of individuals.

 

[yorksrob]

They're highly relevant to why we're where we are now, though. The government's failures last year to prevent Covid taking hold mean that it does not get the benefit of the doubt when taking liberalising measures.

However, now that we are in this situation, the role of social distancing, masks, Covid-safe cleaning regimes, vaccines, etc. is not about that utopia (now unachievable, arguments will persist about whether it ever was), but about how we best manage in the circumstances we are in today.

As regards Prof Michie, I thought her response to of all people Richard Madeley was extremely revealing about her conscious and unconscious biases. Unlike some - especially the dog whistle blowers at the Express etc. - I don't regard her Communism as the cause of her belief in masks. It's far more likely that, having chosen an ideology (and faction within that ideology) that is both authoritarian and statist (the CPB is the home of the pro-Stalin tankies following the disintegration of the Warsaw Pact), she is pre-disposed to measures that emphasise the role of government over that of individuals.

Ultimately once you've vaccinated everyone you can, the virus will get to society anyway, so all countries will need to face the same question i.e, are we prepared to permanently change the way society works to manage, or "live with" the virus going forward. As far as I'm concerned, that answer must be no.

 

[DustyBin]

And no I don't agree. Many countries have succeeded in achieving and sustaining near zero covid and seem to have had a much better time of it overall. In those cases a very hard, early, initial lockdown accompanied by a working test, trace, isolate and protect policy allowed them to reopen sooner and with far fewer restrictions than we've had to deal with over the last year.

So where do we find the time machine required for us to achieve this ourselves? That group of scientists are advocating the pursuit of zero covid from the present time which is unachievable. It's really not that much of a leap to suggest that lockdowns and restrictions are likely to feature heavily in their strategy, nor that they'd be in place for a very long time.

To be honest I'm pleased that at least some of those with hard left authoritarian views are actually putting their cards on the table, rather than continuing to disingenuously claim to be acting in the interests of public health....

 

[Dent]

And no I don't agree. Many countries have succeeded in achieving and sustaining near zero covid and seem to have had a much better time of it overall. In those cases a very hard, early, initial lockdown accompanied by a working test, trace, isolate and protect policy allowed them to reopen sooner and with far fewer restrictions than we've had to deal with over the last year.

What is their long-term exit plan?

 

[Darandio]

What is their long-term exit plan?

It clearly doesn't exist.

 

[GodAtum]

From the DM (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9783089/Freedom-Day-wear-mask-supermarket-July-19.html):

Trains - The Rail Delivery Group, which represents UK train operators, such as Avanti West Coast, TransPennine Express and Southeastern, told MailOnline today that rail companies 'will ask people to follow the government guidance and, out of respect for others, wear face coverings if an indoor setting is busy'. A spokesman added that train travel is 'low risk, with the majority of carriages well ventilated by air conditioning systems or by doors and windows'. She added that as restrictions lift, they will continue carrying out extra cleaning and providing better information about how busy services are, so that 'passengers can travel with confidence'.

Buses and coaches - The Confederation of Passenger Transport, which represents the bus and coach industry including National Express and Megabus, has called for clearer regulations from the Government but said in the absence of that, passengers' choices will be respected. A spokesman told MailOnline: 'We expect that many people, especially in busy places, will follow the Prime Minister's call to continue to wear a face covering as a courtesy to others.' But they added that passengers 'will find it difficult to understand why the Prime Minister has singled out public transport as somewhere to wear a face covering when a range of other activities share its characteristics'. A spokesman continued: 'We now need to see clear guidance for operators and customers but, in the absence of regulations, it is important that we respect everyone's right to choose whether to wear a face covering. The industry is doing everything it can to ensure people can travel with confidence. Operators will continue to deliver enhanced cleaning regimes, ensure buses are well ventilated and provide tools such as apps to allow customers to see how busy their bus is and help plan their journey in advance.'

National Express - A spokesman told MailOnline: 'We are all responsible for keeping each other safe. We are advising customers to follow the guidance for the relevant country they are travelling in. We will ask them to continue to be considerate of others and respect their personal choices.'

Transport for London - No decision announced yet for mask wearing on the Overground, Underground or bus services in London. TfL has not responded. Mayor Sadiq Khan has been considering a bid to force passengers to keep wearing masks.

Free Now - A spokesman for the car ride-hailing app told MailOnline: 'We are working with regulators to understand if there will still be industry-wide requirements on mask-wearing from Jul 19. Whilst we await this, we will recommend face masks to customers and drivers but give them both the choice on what to do, leaving them with the freedom to agree what is comfortable for them during a ride.'

Uber - Not yet responded.

Ola - Not yet responded.

Bolt - Not yet responded.

Licensed Taxi Drivers' Association - Not yet responded.

 

[quantinghome]

So where do we find the time machine required for us to achieve this ourselves?

It's impossible to achieve from where we are at now. That ship sailed a long time ago. But there was a time when it was achievable, and it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

What is their long-term exit plan?

You have access to the same information as I do. Why ask me?

 

[Failed Unit]

Be interesting on the Anglo Scottish / Welsh operators how they handle these services.

They can
A - Force everyone to wear masks - which isn't fair on the people making journeys completely in England
B - We are now approaching Berwick-on-Tweed (insert last stop in England here), put your masks on or Nicola / Mark will break your legs.

 

[HSTEd]

Be interesting on the Anglo Scottish / Welsh operators how they handle these services.

They can
A - Force everyone to wear masks - which isn't fair on the people making journeys completely in England
B - We are now approaching Berwick-on-Tweed (insert last stop in England here), put your masks on or Nicola / Mark will break your legs.

I'm pretty sure every operator will enforce masks regardless, so it's moot.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm pretty sure every operator will enforce masks regardless, so it's moot.

Hopefully not as I am sick of the vigilantes - but it is going against what the RDG are advising in post 1062 and also on the BBC website. They don't want to give the impression that public transport is unsafe, forcing people to wear masks is sending out exactly that message.

 

[DustyBin]

It's impossible to achieve from where we are at now. That ship sailed a long time ago. But there was a time when it was achievable, and it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

I disagree but this is ignoratio elenchi (Boris would be proud of that one!) in regard to why a group of scientists are pushing a zero covid agenda at this point....

 

[Dent]

You have access to the same information as I do. Why ask me?

Because you are the one advocating that course of action, so you should have thought it through and worked out how what you advocate ends before advocating it.

 

[NorthKent1989]

We all want 2019 normal. Unfortunately the speed at which the delta variant is spreading means that even with the very high levels of vaccine efficacy we have achieved, a complete removal of restrictions and a return to normal social interaction will produce a big exit wave of hospital admissions and deaths. Clearly some railforum members believe that's a price worth paying to return to normal. But we need to recognise that this forum is not representative of the general view of the country.

Yet more goal post moving, we have the vaccine now! There is literally no excuse to not give us back our 2019 freedoms, and no you’re completely wrong, not everyone one clearly wants a return to a 2019 normality, some are begging for vaccine passports and living in a dystopia

At this rate we will never get back all our freedoms back and quite frankly there’s far more important things than Covid cases, people die everyday of one thing or another, people have committed suicide because of these incessant lockdowns that people are so keen on having because their so scared of a respiratory virus which at this stage is minor, If the Delta variant was so scary and frightening as you claim it to be then the Euros and Wimbledon would never have taken place at all.

Maybe it’s about time the NHS did what we pay our taxes for and accept patients and get on with it, this whole protect the NHS is getting rather tiresome, how about protect people’s mental health or protect small businesses?

Just so long you know that the locktavist view isn’t the view of the

 

[Watershed]

Be interesting on the Anglo Scottish / Welsh operators how they handle these services.

They can
A - Force everyone to wear masks - which isn't fair on the people making journeys completely in England
B - We are now approaching Berwick-on-Tweed (insert last stop in England here), put your masks on or Nicola / Mark will break your legs.

I'm pretty sure it will be the latter, albeit strictly speaking they can't enforce anything until you cross the border. The Scottish Regulations don't have any jurisdiction in England so they won't be entitled to remove you (or prevent you from boarding) under the Scottish Regs. That's not to say they won't try (perhaps retrospectively 'justifying' it under Byelaw 12 or 13(1)!).

 

[trebor79]

I don't like the sound of this atall. Even though it will no longer be legal to have to wear face masks on public transport, the government is going to leave it to all the transport operators to decide on whether passengers are required to wear face masks on their services! So if we're not doing so, they can refuse us entry to a bus/coach/train? And in the case of trains, if a conductor finds people not wearing face masks they can demand we get off at the next station??!!

Will have to see what happens over the coming days. I do hope a load of train, bus, coach operators aren't going to insist on this face mask wearing nonsense to remain on their services.

I'm pretty sure every operator will enforce masks regardless, so it's moot.

The NRCoT do not require you to wear a mask. From 19th there is nothing for them to "enforce" in England. All they can do is ask nicely, and if you reply "No", or "I'd rather not, to be honest" there's nothing they can do except shrug and walk away.
The industry bodies seem to be saying that they will be advising operators to refer to the guidance - which suggests to me a few posters and perhaps some announcements asking you to consider wearing a mask at busy times and that'll be about it.
I'll be interested to see how many staff stay masked up - my guess is not many. And I expect zero attempts at pseudo-enforcement from staff who aren't themselves masked.

 

[43066]

I'll be interested to see how many staff stay masked up - my guess is not many. And I expect zero attempts at pseudo-enforcement from staff who aren't themselves masked.

Worth noting that many TOCs require staff to wear masks, both in public areas to model “good” behaviour, and in non public facing areas to placate the unions (the less said about the unions’ attitude to Covid, the better).

Therefore you will likely see more members of staff wearing masks than would naturally choose to.

 

[greyman42]

Vaccine Passports are to be encouraged immediately in Step 4.

Where for?

 

[NorthKent1989]

And no I don't agree. Many countries have succeeded in achieving and sustaining near zero covid and seem to have had a much better time of it overall. In those cases a very hard, early, initial lockdown accompanied by a working test, trace, isolate and protect policy allowed them to reopen sooner and with far fewer restrictions than we've had to deal with over the last year.

Zero Covid is a pipe dream and one not worth waiting for, small populations can achieve but never in the U.K., and countries with a zero Covid policy have no exit strategy in place and seem to be in a perpetual cycle of locking down over one case over and over, that’s not a good example to follow

 

[greyman42]

I feel very sorry for the various staff members of retail and transport who are going to be caught in the middle of this.

Either get rid of masks all-together or keep them mandatory until they are not “recommended”.

I don't see why there will be any problems. The law allows you to wear a mask if you wish or not wear one if you don't. What is the problem with that?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yet more goal post moving, we have the vaccine now! There is literally no excuse to not give us back our 2019 freedoms, and no you’re completely wrong, not everyone one clearly wants a return to a 2019 normality, some are begging for vaccine passports and living in a dystopia

At this rate we will never get back all our freedoms back and quite frankly there’s far more important things than Covid cases, people die everyday of one thing or another, people have committed suicide because of these incessant lockdowns that people are so keen on having because their so scared of a respiratory virus which at this stage is minor, If the Delta variant was so scary and frightening as you claim it to be then the Euros and Wimbledon would never have taken place at all.

Maybe it’s about time the NHS did what we pay our taxes for and accept patients and get on with it, this whole protect the NHS is getting rather tiresome, how about protect people’s mental health or protect small businesses?

Just so long you know that the locktavist view isn’t the view of the

I now know 10 people double vaccinated who have tested positive for covid ok none are hospitalised yet and only one is poorly but all now isolating along with other family members. The few ive spoken to directly were reasonable compliant with the rules and aren't sure where they could have caught it but two look like household transmission from children. OK ten is nothing but in my acquaintance group thats 10% already so i am in no doubt that this will spread like wildfire and the govt admit to that. Yes hospitalisations and mortality will rise but within NHS capacity but what you can't control is level of forced self isolations so I see staff shortages increasing all over the place if they don't recalibrate trace & isolate to reflect the reduced risks now associated with high levels of vaccination. Waiting till 16th August will be too late.

 

[greyman42]

So people are already asking if TOCs are going to continue to mandate masks.

https://twitter.com/TippingsTipples/status/1414837587492196352?s=19

Its going to get messy...

The law states you do not need to wear a mask. Trains will have a lot of people not wearing masks so even if a TOC wanted to enforce them, it will become unenforceable. Unless of course the YOU GOV poll that 70% of us are still going to wear a mask is correct, then we will be where we are now so everyone will be happy.

In practice it’ll no doubt be very similar to the current situation, with broad brush “self certification” style exemptions. Staff will be required make some half hearted efforts to remind passengers of the policy (TM announcements etc.) but in practice, just as now, it’s neither practical nor reasonable to expect staff to enforce this kind of thing.

If a rogue overzealous staff member with their own agenda is encountered, a clear statement that “I’m not required to wear one according to your company’s own policy” should be sufficient, with a complaint if necessary.

That pretty much covers it.

Spineless leadership as usual from this government. Either masks are required or they aren't. To leave transport workers trying to enforce unenforceable rules is just shirking responsibility.

We the glorious Tories have removed the need for masks it's these nasty train companies making you wear them not us. Vote for us, vote for us.

What a joke.

The law is very clear, masks are not required.

 

[westv]

It will be interesting to compare Scotland - mask mandate and England - no mask mandate.

 

[AlterEgo]

It will be interesting to compare Scotland - mask mandate and England - no mask mandate.

There was literally no impact on cases, admissions or deaths whatsoever when England brought them in. Have a look at a case graph and try to guess what date they were made a legal necessity. You can’t. It’s poor policy, the way most masks are worn makes not a toss of difference to health outcomes.

45 million people now have a vaccine. That’s good news and provides a good level of safety for nearly everyone.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

45 million people now have a vaccine. That’s good news and provides a good level of safety for nearly everyone.

Trouble is nearly everyone means 15million people who aren't protected so they mustn't be abandoned for the sake of the 45 million of us who are protected. Also lets not forget doesn't mean we are 100% safe as we ive posted above several people I know are double vaccinated yet have caught it so we need to a balance here so we don't end up going backwards.

 

[43066]

Trouble is nearly everyone means 15million people who aren't protected so they mustn't be abandoned for the sake of the 45 million of us who are protected. Also lets not forget doesn't mean we are 100% safe as we ive posted above several people I know are double vaccinated yet have caught it so we need to a balance here so we don't end up going backwards.

But society doesn’t operate on the basis of providing 100% protection for everyone, from everything, and neither should it. If it did, you wouldn’t be able to do anything, ever, and life basically wouldn’t be worth living.

I’m sorry to inform you of this, but you’ve got a roughly 50% chance of contracting cancer at some point, and 100% chance of dying at some point, so you might as well enjoy life while you can.

 

[greyman42]

Trouble is nearly everyone means 15million people who aren't protected so they mustn't be abandoned for the sake of the 45 million of us who are protected. Also lets not forget doesn't mean we are 100% safe as we ive posted above several people I know are double vaccinated yet have caught it so we need to a balance here so we don't end up going backwards.

Who is talking about "abandoning" anyone?
We will never be 100% safe, that is not how life works.