Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

[yorksrob]

The Dutch experience - which came from a different starting point - does show that the desire for relaxing restrictions has limits, and that triggering large scale additional outbreaks may cross them.

Well it doesn't. Temporally there will be a limit to how long restrictions apply.

 

[Ianno87]

But we need to recognise that this forum is not representative of the general view of the country.

Can this statement please be plastered at the top of every single thread on this Forum?

 

[kristiang85]

Based on what's happened in the Netherlands I'd be surprised if some restrictions weren't reimposed after a couple of weeks.

Didn't the Netherlands drop a lot more restrictions at once though?

 

[big_rig]

Have any bus operators announced what they're doing yet? I saw BorderBus are doing a twitter poll with 50-something % saying yes and 40-something saying no.

I saw something from the coach industry at least saying they weren't going to because (paraphrasing here) they didn't really want to make their vehicles feel dangerous (i.e this coach is so unsafe everyone must wear a mask in it) and scare off customers. I think they have realised that the most mask-obsessed will still find something else to complain of if masks remain and not use their offering anyway, so it's probably not much use appealing to them. Hopefully other operators take a similar view!

 

[VauxhallandI]

If it was so dangerous I'm amazed people think its all fine because of a loose dirty rag. It defies any logic whatsoever and I won't accommodate other people's illogical thoughts.

 

[brad465]

Based on what's happened in the Netherlands I'd be surprised if some restrictions weren't reimposed after a couple of weeks.

There is a difference in that in the Netherlands infections were low and shot up after easing them. For us they are already going up and have been for a while before announcing a further easement. If after 2-3 weeks they start going up even faster and hospitals look concerning then I can see re-imposing happening (if they haven't u-turned already by that point). However that would be hard to justify if by then they start levelling off and/or declining. In the last week the 7 day rate of increase has dropped from over 60% to 28%, so for now is heading that way.

 

[Failed Unit]

If it was so dangerous I'm amazed people think its all fine because of a loose dirty rag. It defies any logic whatsoever and I won't accommodate other people's illogical thoughts.

Which they then keep in their pocket, don’t wash it for weeks (if applicable). Put on the table when sat down. no-one seems to care about the noticeable amount of them lost / discarded in the street.

 

[quantinghome]

There is a difference in that in the Netherlands infections were low and shot up after easing them. For us they are already going up and have been for a while before announcing a further easement. If after 2-3 weeks they start going up even faster and hospitals look concerning then I can see re-imposing happening (if they haven't u-turned already by that point). However that would be hard to justify if by then they start levelling off and/or declining. In the last week the 7 day rate of increase has dropped from over 60% to 28%, so for now is heading that way.

Seems to be see-sawing at the moment. Hopefully the rate will come down, but who knows?

 

[DustyBin]

Based on what's happened in the Netherlands I'd be surprised if some restrictions weren't reimposed after a couple of weeks.

Neither would I, but that doesn't make it right. Restricting our freedom in order to (try to) contain an endemic virus, harmless to the overwhelming majority of people, is completely unacceptable. There's been a seismic shift in our attitude to risk and the extent to which "big government" should step in to mitigate it over the last year or so, which is what I've feared all along. The precedent is now set; what else should the government restrict and/or mandate in order to "keep us safe"? I don't consider myself to be some kind of ultra libertarian but the implications of this are deeply worrying to me. Whilst I think we generally disagree in regard to the immediate situation, can you not see the danger going forward here?

Can this statement please be plastered at the top of every single thread on this Forum?

I do however think it's safe to say that a lot of posters on here (on both sides of the debate) are considerably more knowledgeable and better read than the general public at large. There's a dogma around restrictions and masks in particular and this is what frustrates people. Too many people are willing to simply do as they're told without question or critical thought.

 

[Failed Unit]

Some good news

The Rail Delivery Group, which represents the industry, says domestic train operators, including Avanti West Coast, TransPennine Express and Southeastern, will not be taking the step, however.

“Rail companies will ask people to follow the government guidance and, out of respect for others, wear face coverings if an indoor setting is busy," a spokesman says.

“Train travel is low-risk, with the majority of carriages well ventilated by air conditioning systems or by doors and windows.”

The Confederation of Passenger Transport, which represents bus and coach companies such as National Express and Megabus, says it is important to "respect everyone’s right to choose" and questions why the prime minister has singled out public transport.

I expect the "why are you not wearing a mask - vigilante attacks will continue, but at least the response can be - non of your business it is not illegal rather than I am exempt"

It is good to see the RDG are concerned that they don't want to make train travel appear unsafe and by dictating masks they are doing exactly that.

 

[43066]

I got shrieked at by a driver changing ends at an open-air station back in February time. This was dealt with by the operator concerned and appropriate action taken, as even allowing some allowance for the emotive nature of things it was unacceptable. The hysterical nature of it wasn’t far short of the guy buying milk in the Nisa.

The mind boggles! Completely inappropriate and utterly bizarre that a driver would take it upon themselves to shriek at a passenger. Apart from anything else one of the joys of the job is not having to do the customer service bit.

We all know guards are required to make announcements and politely remind customers about face coverings as part of their job. That’s not the case at all for drivers, any more than drivers should be checking tickets or issuing penalty fares. It also shows a worrying lack of judgement from a safety point of view: getting into shouting matches with passengers is the *last* thing you should be doing before taking charge of a train…

We all want 2019 normal.

No, some people really don’t. Including the authoritarian hard left. They actively want a more restricted/cowed society.

Unfortunately the speed at which the delta variant is spreading means that even with the very high levels of vaccine efficacy we have achieved, a complete removal of restrictions and a return to normal social interaction will produce a big exit wave of hospital admissions and deaths.

But it’s established scientific consensus that an exit wave will happen *whenever* we unlock. Again, you appear to be criticising the current approach without suggesting an alternative.

If not now, when?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Some good news



I expect the "why are you not wearing a mask - vigilante attacks will continue, but at least the response can be - non of your business it is not illegal rather than I am exempt"

It is good to see the RDG are concerned that they don't want to make train travel appear unsafe and by dictating masks they are doing exactly that.

Can the TOC's go against the RDG?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Spineless leadership as usual from this government. Either masks are required or they aren't. To leave transport workers trying to enforce unenforceable rules is just shirking responsibility.

We the glorious Tories have removed the need for masks it's these nasty train companies making you wear them not us. Vote for us, vote for us.

What a joke.

 

[quantinghome]

No, some people really don’t. Including the authoritarian hard left. They actively want a more restricted/cowed society.

Can't see this as anything other than a straw man argument. I've never heard anyone express this sentiment.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Can't see this as anything other than a straw man argument. I've never heard anyone express this sentiment.

They are hardly likely to shout from the roof tops about it

 

[Ianno87]

I do however think it's safe to say that a lot of posters on here (on both sides of the debate) are considerably more knowledgeable and better read than the general public at large. There's a dogma around restrictions and masks in particular and this is what frustrates people. Too many people are willing to simply do as they're told without question or critical thought.

Or just happy to not make a fuss and get on with things.

 

[DustyBin]

Can't see this as anything other than a straw man argument. I've never heard anyone express this sentiment.

You may have missed it but....

Left-wing 'zero covid' scientists plot bid for endless lockdowns | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

The Sunday Express has learnt that members of Independent Sage are to be part of the launch of an international group called the World Health Network which will push for a “zero covid” strategy of maintaining lockdowns. The revelation came at an online meeting of the Zero Covid campaign group last week where trade union officials told attendees about how covid is a means of recruiting members and how the ultimate goal has to be “to bring down capitalism.” The news about the new international network was announced at the end of the meeting Yaneer Bar-Yam, an American physicist who is a member of the Covid Action Group which includes the members of Independent Sage including controversial behavioural scientist Professor Susan Michie, who is a member of the Communist Party. It follows MPs last month questioning why three Independent Sage members including Professor Michie, her husband Professor Robert West, and Professor Stephen Reicher, all behavioural scientists, are also official government advisors. Dr Bar-Yam, a leading member of the Covid Action Group, told the meeting of leftwing Zero Covid activists that a closed conference not open to the public will be held on 14 and 15 July to launch the World Health Network. He said: “We have a globalised team primarily of scientists called the Covid Action Group. [This is] morphing into the World Health Network [with] very enthusiastic participation from Indy Sage, ISAG (Independent Scientific Advocacy Group), Covid Germany, and reaching out to parents groups and others. “The purpose of the network is to facilitate the interaction of the teams. Give it some global infrastructure thinking about opportunities. He said the purpose was to “shift the pandemic response” adding “I think you all know the values we share and the work we are doing on that.” Earlier in the meeting Kathy Jenkins from Scottish Hazards, which was set up to provide free and confidential information, advice, support and training to workers on workplace health and safety issues, discussed how she was being funded with taxpayers’ money from the Scottish government to go to non-union members and using covid to encourage them to join trade unions. The other speaker Tracy Edwards from the Public and Commercial Services Union also discussed how they were using air quality, long covid and other issues to restructure the workplace and add regulation. Near the end of the meeting a Zero Covid activist Steve Ballard said that work on health and safety needed to be “combined with transforming the nature of work. He said: “The rich have always said you have got to work to make us rich. That’s got to stop. Otherwise we are all going to fry. Got to change the agenda pretty damn quick.” At a previous meeting he suggested that the Soviet Union style of Communism needed to be brought into Britain. Responding to his comments, Ms Edwards said: “I agree with Steve there. Capitalism makes its own. “The people who are in charge cannot be trusted to protect our health and safety. What we have got to do as a movement is not just control our working lives but society as a whole has pointed out. “We have got to urgently think about who is running society and shift the balance in favour of the many not the few.” Ms Jenkins added: “[Covid] hasn’t created problems, it has exposed them. Not only health and safety ones. “Loads of smaller things need changing, not just capitalism [but] I completely agree we have got to get rid of it.​

This is just one group, there's no straw man here it's very real.

 

[Failed Unit]

Can the TOC's go against the RDG?

I guess they can, but it would be an interesting debate to watch if they do. Let say LNER enforced it and TPE didn't, it would send a very odd message out considering that between say Edinburgh and York it is the same train type. As many have said we don't have any choice (apart from to drive) on most routes so I guess they can do what they like, but the rail industry in my opinion should really put up a united front.

 

[Watershed]

Can the TOC's go against the RDG?

Legally, yes. But in practice they're not going to.

Hopefully this will set the 'wheels in motion' for TfL, TfGM et al to pipe down and accept that masks should be, at most, advisory.

 

[Ianno87]

You may have missed it but....

Left-wing 'zero covid' scientists plot bid for endless lockdowns | Politics | News | Express.co.uk



This is just one group, there's no straw man here it's very real.

I honestly would not get too hung up on one article. It's the Express for crying out loud....

 

[Cdd89]

Or just happy to not make a fuss and get on with things.

Except those who don’t want masks are portrayed as making a fuss, while those who do want masks are portrayed as getting on with things. Which is somewhat inaccurate to say the least.

 

[DustyBin]

Or just happy to not make a fuss and get on with things.

You could apply that to all kinds of issues though. At some point not making a fuss, blissful ignorance, turning a blind eye (call it what you will) is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Apathy can be very dangerous.

 

[island]

A lot of ticket machines (though not all) now have a popup message that says you are required to wear a mask on your journey, and you are required to 'agree' to that popup in order to buy a ticket Presumably that qualifies as 'notification'?

It would need to be in every single sales channel.

 

[yorksrob]

Interesting quote from a proffessor of child health and outbreak medicine basically expecting a big "bump" in cases, but confirming that many being treated at the moment are unvaccinated. It suggests to me that getting the vaccination programme rolled out is key as that is doing the heavy lifting, rather than restrictions:

Prof Calum Semple, professor of child health and outbreak medicine at the University of Liverpool, says he expects there to be a “bump” in the winter from cases of Covid and other respiratory diseases.

Prof Semple tells BBC Breakfast the country is currently in a third wave of the pandemic and he expects a “miserable winter”.

He says many of those being treated in hospital for Covid at the moment are between the ages of 20 and 50, and unvaccinated.

“What’s surprising is that although they are not dying they are suffering quite a lot of injuries, so kidney injuries and lung injuries. My concern now is not so much about death, although every death is a tragedy, my concern now is about otherwise healthy people who would otherwise be economically important working and going about their daily lives and they are going to get damaged and get lung scarring and kidney disease.”

 

[DustyBin]

I honestly would not get too hung up on one article. It's the Express for crying out loud....

It is indeed the Express but it was published elsewhere and I don't think it's credible to say they simply made that lot up.

 

[43066]

Can't see this as anything other than a straw man argument. I've never heard anyone express this sentiment.

Susan Michie, SAGE member, is a member of the Communist party, who is also on record as saying she thinks masks and social distancing should remain forever. If you think communists are all about small government and personal freedom you might just be in for a shock. Another of the twelve (Costello) has described himself as: “to the left of Jeremy Corbyn”.

This is what I find so worrying about the current situation, and unforgivable of the government to have allowed themselves to have been put into this position. The “independent” advisors responsible for shaping government policy have a very clear political agenda of their own!

I honestly would not get too hung up on one article. It's the Express for crying out loud....

So what in that article is untrue?

 

[quantinghome]

You may have missed it but....

Left-wing 'zero covid' scientists plot bid for endless lockdowns | Politics | News | Express.co.uk



This is just one group, there's no straw man here it's very real.

There's nothing quite like a Reds Under The Bed story from the Express is there? It's truly a different world.

I couldn't see anyone quoted in the article actually advocating for 'endless lockdowns'. Not that I have any time for communist academics - but it would be nice for the Express's headlines to occasionally match the article.

 

[HS2isgood]

Can the TOC's go against the RDG?

Yes, they can. It wouldn't be a good look, but it is possible at least one TOC does it.

 

[johncrossley]

That is not a source for the claim "the majority of the population do not use Public transport whatsoever in the average week", and it is off-topic.

If by 'majority' we mean 'over 50%', it would be remarkable if more than 50% use public transport in the average week, given the modal share for public transport, which is something like 10-15%. With the exception of London and a few other places, the vast majority of people have access to cars and use them for virtually all trips. They may use trains a few times a year, for example if they are going to London. Even quite a few people without cars get by on foot. I believe modal share for walking is higher than for public transport.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Interesting quote from a proffessor of child health and outbreak medicine basically expecting a big "bump" in cases, but confirming that many being treated at the moment are unvaccinated. It suggests to me that getting the vaccination programme rolled out is key as that is doing the heavy lifting, rather than restrictions:

And what the zero Covid lobby don't seem to realise is indefinite restrictions would just destroy confidence in the vaccine. People simply wouldn't bother, meaning we'd be in a worse place than if we reopened.