Most DMUs replaced per mile of electrification?

[tbtc]

Which electrification would release the largest number of DMUs per mile (based on current service provision)?

For example, Walsall to Rugeley Trent Valley is fifteen miles, but would release five DMUs (London Midland 170s, based on current provision)

Are there any that give a better "miles electrified" to "DMUs saved" ratio?

 

[142094]

Morpeth - Metrocentre, probably not as good as yours.

 

[tbtc]

Morpeth - Metrocentre, probably not as good as yours.

That's about three miles of additional electrification required to save a unit or two (possibly shorter, considering the line over the Tyne is already wired) - good choice

 

[Old Timer]

Presuming you mean route mileage.

The Bedford to St Pancras electrification scheme released 30 four-car Class 127 DMUs.

Working on the basis of 53.5 miles (50 St Pancras to Bedford + 3.5 Kentish Town to Moorgate) that works out at 0.56 DMU per mile

 

[12CSVT]

Crewe to Chester would enable VWC to dispense with class 221 DEMUs on Euston - Chester services. And we have the farcical situation with 221s working Birmingham - Glasgow / Edinburgh services which is 25kv for the entire route.

 

[tbtc]

Crewe to Chester would enable VWC to dispense with class 221 DEMUs on Euston - Chester services. And we have the farcical situation with 221s working Birmingham - Glasgow / Edinburgh services which is 25kv for the entire route.

Euston - Holyhead used to only be a couple of services a day. If you can arrange for 57s to drag a couple of Euston - Chester services then get rid of 21 Voyagers (since Virgin wouldn't need them for the Scottish services too), plus one ATW 153 (for their Chester - Crewe "shuttle").

That works out at about one DMU saved per mile of electrification - that's got to be top of the list for the next bit of wiring, surely?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Euston - Holyhead used to only be a couple of services a day. If you can arrange for 57s to drag a couple of Euston - Chester services then get rid of 21 Voyagers (since Virgin wouldn't need them for the Scottish services too), plus one ATW 153 (for their Chester - Crewe "shuttle").

That works out at about one DMU saved per mile of electrification - that's got to be top of the list for the next bit of wiring, surely?

That would severly help XC too so i can see ltos of merits with allowing virgin to become more electric

 

[tbtc]

That would severly help XC too so i can see ltos of merits with allowing virgin to become more electric

If these twenty five (ish) miles were electrified we'd have about a hundred Voyager coaches which would be perfect for doubling the "core" XC route (e.g. single unit runs from Plymouth to Bristol, gets coupled to a second unit at Bristol, nine coach train runs from Bristol to Newcastle, one unit left at Newcastle (ready to head back down to Bristol) and the other continues to Edinburgh.

Yes, you need a second Conductor, but think of the thousands of people who'd use XC if they thought there was a chance of a seat!

 

[jopsuk]

How long are the Uckfield and Marshlink lines (in terms of electrification needed)? 10 2-car and 6 4-car would be freed by those.

What's the DMU/mile benifit of the Edinburgh-Falkirk-Glasgow-Stirling-Dunblane-Alloa project?

 

[ajdunlop]

If these twenty five (ish) miles were electrified we'd have about a hundred Voyager coaches which would be perfect for doubling the "core" XC route (e.g. single unit runs from Plymouth to Bristol, gets coupled to a second unit at Bristol, nine coach train runs from Bristol to Newcastle, one unit left at Newcastle (ready to head back down to Bristol) and the other continues to Edinburgh.

Yes, you need a second Conductor, but think of the thousands of people who'd use XC if they thought there was a chance of a seat!

And any spares could be given to TransPennine for Manc-Edin.

As Birmingham to Glasgow is already electrified there would be no expense in infrastructure upgrades for this but where would the trains come from? I assume building more Pendolinos is out of the question, would a set of class 350s cut it (with a bit of Virginification) or would that be like TPEs class 185s all over again?

Another slightly related thought, when franchises get redealt for the next while what are the chances of TPE still having the Manc-Scotland routes or are these likely to be given to someone else and who?

 

[rail-britain]

Which electrification would release the largest number of DMUs per mile (based on current service provision)?

Glasgow QS - Edinburgh
16 units, 50 miles; 0.32 units per mile
Glasgow QS - Alloa / Dunblane
5 units, 42 miles; 0.12 units per mile
Edinburgh - Dunblane
5 units, 35 miles; 0.14 units per miles
Complete scheme 26 units, 77 miles; 0.34 units per mile

Paisley - Ayr / Largs / Ardrossan
26 units, 50 miles; 0.52 units per mile

 

[tbtc]

And any spares could be given to TransPennine for Manc-Edin.

As Birmingham to Glasgow is already electrified there would be no expense in infrastructure upgrades for this but where would the trains come from? I assume building more Pendolinos is out of the question, would a set of class 350s cut it (with a bit of Virginification) or would that be like TPEs class 185s all over again?

Another slightly related thought, when franchises get redealt for the next while what are the chances of TPE still having the Manc-Scotland routes or are these likely to be given to someone else and who?

Good questions.

The 350s can match the 100mph speed of the 185s north of Preston; the question is whether the 221s reach over 125 on the Birmingham to Preston stretch.

If they don't have tilt then they could only do 110 on the "tilting" sections of the line as far as I understand.

Talking of 110mph, maybe an order for 100+ EMUs for the Birmingham/ Manchester to Glasgow/ Edinburgh service could include units for London - Norwich too? Plus maybe the new Edinburgh - Glasgow units too? Knowing the railways, they'll procure different types of new units for each route, of course!

Logically, I can't see TPE continuing their Preston routes once the lines are electrified. If the Scottish service is given to surplus 319s then Northern are the logical operator. If the Scottish services get bigger/ faster EMUs then West Coast are the logical operator (with some more of those EMUs for the Birmingham route)

Getting back on track, I think the Uckfield and Marshlink lines are about fifty miles, but a bit of those are single track (which would obviously be a good bit cheaper), so that's a DMU saved for three or four miles of track. And those four car 171s would be very welcome on routes elsewhere!

 

[Fred26]

Would it be better for smaller 'diesel' routes within wholly electrified areas, to be electrified, before going for electrification of the MML or the GWR?
By that I mean, would it be better to stop some instances of diesel under wires and cascade a small number rolling stock elsewhere, before undertaking a massive electrification project and cascading a large number of stock?

 

[rail-britain]

the question is whether the 221s reach over 125 on the Birmingham to Preston stretch

No is the answer to that, they are limited to 125 so should never be over
The 221 units with West Coast as permitted to operate at the EPS line speed as indicated and with the TASS in operation, otherwise normal line speed applies

 

[tbtc]

No is the answer to that, they are limited to 125 so should never be over
The 221 units with West Coast as permitted to operate at the EPS line speed as indicated and with the TASS in operation, otherwise normal line speed applies

Sorry, I meant to type "up to 125", my apologies
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would it be better for smaller 'diesel' routes within wholly electrified areas, to be electrified, before going for electrification of the MML or the GWR?
By that I mean, would it be better to stop some instances of diesel under wires and cascade a small number rolling stock elsewhere, before undertaking a massive electrification project and cascading a large number of stock?

To me, yes, this is exactly what we should be doing.

Nobody wants to build more DMUs (given the limited shelf life), so the best way to improve DMU routes is to increase capacity by releasing DMUs from elsewhere.

Lines like Walsall - Rugeley, Marks Tey - Sudbury, Coventry - Nuneaton, Doncaster - Hull, Crewe - Chester, Greenford to West Ealing and the Uckfield/ Marshlink lines would be better to do than a whole new massive project.

 

[Fred26]

Just have to build more EMU's then!

 

[swt_passenger]

As we've discussed before, SWT could release about half a dozen DMUs just as soon as they were allowed an equivalent number of extra EMUs, without any electrification being needed.

 

[bluenoxid]

To me, yes, this is exactly what we should be doing.

Nobody wants to build more DMUs (given the limited shelf life), so the best way to improve DMU routes is to increase capacity by releasing DMUs from elsewhere.

Lines like Walsall - Rugeley, Marks Tey - Sudbury, Coventry - Nuneaton, Doncaster - Hull, Crewe - Chester, Greenford to West Ealing and the Uckfield/ Marshlink lines would be better to do than a whole new massive project.

WTF???

Doncaster to Hull would only suit HT and EC for five trains per day. Might as well do other lines first.

 

[tbtc]

WTF???

Doncaster to Hull would only suit HT and EC for five trains per day. Might as well do other lines first.

True, its not the most effective one on the list, but forty miles would release four 180s (currently five are with HT, but one is "on loan" IIRC) plus one HST plus two or three Northern DMUs on the "stopper" (the Scarborough/ Bridlington - Hull - Doncaster - Sheffield route obviously wouldn't be able to convert)

 

[ainsworth74]

plus two or three Northern DMUs on the "stopper"

If you were to electrify the link out from Selby to the ECML you could free up some more Northern DMUs that run between York and Selby/Hull. (Unless those are the stoppers you are referring to ) It would also make a start on Transpennine electrification.

 

[jopsuk]

GOBLIN? How long is it, and how long are the short stretches with wires? Eight units would be released- but also it would be key for allowing electric freight more routes across London

 

[starrymarkb]

11 miles or 0.72 units per mile

 

[tbtc]

GOBLIN? How long is it, and how long are the short stretches with wires? Eight units would be released- but also it would be key for allowing electric freight more routes across London

Brilliant!

Twelve and a quarter miles (according to the timetable), but Woodrange Park to Barking is already electrified (for the C2C Liverpool Street services) and a little stretch at South Tottenham is already electrified (used by the Stratford - Stansted NXEA service)...

...so, for under ten miles of wiring you release eight DMUs - that ought to be top of the list (as well as the benefit of diverting freight, encouraging more interworking with London Overground services... you could even consider routes like Southend/ Kent - Leyton - Stansted/ Cambridge whilst avoiding central London)

 

[Fred26]

Brilliant!

Twelve and a quarter miles (according to the timetable), but Woodrange Park to Barking is already electrified (for the C2C Liverpool Street services) and a little stretch at South Tottenham is already electrified (used by the Stratford - Stansted NXEA service)...

...so, for under ten miles of wiring you release eight DMUs - that ought to be top of the list (as well as the benefit of diverting freight, encouraging more interworking with London Overground services... you could even consider routes like Southend/ Kent - Leyton - Stansted/ Cambridge whilst avoiding central London)

It would be great to electrify that stretch, but you'd struggle with extra capacity. It's already used to it's capacity as a lot of freight uses the line. To get anymore trains on that line I think freight would have to leave it completely.
For the money though, the GOBLIN has got to be a good bet. A line that close to central London shouldn't be diesel at all. Hopefully one day they'll get round to electrifying it.

 

[jopsuk]

Hmm, according to wikipedia, Chiltern operate 336.4km of passenger routes. That's 209 miles. I think this includes the through services to kidderminster They have 59 units (including their bubble car)- 0.28 units per mile- though they're also due to expand the fleet with short LHCS and new 172 units.

As an extension to a Chiltern electrification scheme- how many more miles would it be to electrify the rest of the Snow Hill lines routes?

 

[tbtc]

Hmm, according to wikipedia, Chiltern operate 336.4km of passenger routes. That's 209 miles. I think this includes the through services to kidderminster They have 59 units (including their bubble car)- 0.28 units per mile- though they're also due to expand the fleet with short LHCS and new 172 units.

As an extension to a Chiltern electrification scheme- how many more miles would it be to electrify the rest of the Snow Hill lines routes?

Another fifteen miles Kidderminster - Worcester, plus the Leamington branch (twenty) and you have converted all of Chiltern plus approx 27 London Midland units... that's almost ninety DMUs saved for 250 miles (?)

A much better cost/benefit ratio than wiring to Bristol!

 

[Failed Unit]

Reading - Gatwick Airport? Many sections of this route are already done. Reading to Bassingstoke as well would be good to get rid of some Dmu running.

In the north Manchester / Liverpool - Blackpool will hopefully happen. A big scheme in the North would be TPE north look at the number of DMUs that line. Some services would need to be altered to make best use of it. I would alter the EMT service but maybe send the selby stopper to an electric destination.

That is the problem with TPE north York - Liverpool would have the best impact but splitting the scarborough and middleburgh services would upset too many. Tpe north would as remove Ht from the dmu world (or would it you can't force open access to change stock) and York - hull. May even get open access to middlesburgh.

 

[route:oxford]

Another fifteen miles Kidderminster - Worcester, plus the Leamington branch (twenty) and you have converted all of Chiltern plus approx 27 London Midland units... that's almost ninety DMUs saved for 250 miles (?)

A much better cost/benefit ratio than wiring to Bristol!

Some of the units could go to FGW to replace 14x series and improve capacity, the 168s would be ideal for the North too.

Of course, Chiltern run one train a day to Oxford - so that'll add another 15 miles or so to the mileage.

But then XC Manchester-Reading Services could aways be turned around at Oxford instead, Southampton turns switched to the Newcastle routes using released 22X series and tag on to the Transport Scotland order for 125mph 38X series units...

(This also has the benefit of providing an electrified diversionary route into London if there are works being done on the WC mainline.)

 

[jopsuk]

the whole lot? 6775 route miles.
2 class 121
2 class 139
94 class 142
23 class 143
23 class 144
137 class 150
70 class 153
7 class 155
144 class 156
170 class 158 (in current formations)
30 class 159
76 class 165
21 class 166
19 class 168
132 (?) class 170
16 class 171
39 class 172 (including those on order not yet finished/built)
27 class 175
14 class 180
51 class 185
34 class 220
44 class 221
27 class 222

1202 DMUs (including 105 DEMUs that can potentially be turned into EMUs)

a total of 0.177 DMUs per mile.

Didn't consider the HSTs or the WSMR 67+stock sets, though they operate in a similar fashion to MUs, as those should be rather easier to convert to electric if those in charge ordered many, many thousands of miles of wire tomorrow.

 

[tbtc]

Some of the units could go to FGW to replace 14x series and improve capacity, the 168s would be ideal for the North too.

Of course, Chiltern run one train a day to Oxford - so that'll add another 15 miles or so to the mileage.

But then XC Manchester-Reading Services could aways be turned around at Oxford instead, Southampton turns switched to the Newcastle routes using released 22X series and tag on to the Transport Scotland order for 125mph 38X series units...

(This also has the benefit of providing an electrified diversionary route into London if there are works being done on the WC mainline.)

Interesting idea

If an order of "fast" EMUs is ever made for Birmingham/ Manchester to Glasgow/ Edinburgh (and maybe London - Norwich, London - Newark/York) I wonder whether it'd be worth converting the Birmingham - Manchester route to (mainly) a stand-alone EMU operation. Manchester would lose its links to south/ south west England but they need capacity between two of the biggest cities in England. Extending the two Euston - Birmingham 390s to Manchester each hour (and the Euston - Wolves to Glasgow/Edinburgh) is probably slightly over the top, but it seems strange that Manchester has a better rail service to York than it does to Birmingham...