• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Current events in Afghanistan

Status
Not open for further replies.

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
2,959
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
I agree, can’t see Biden’s credibility emerging from this in any form other than entirely shot to pieces, unless he can pull off some kind of master stroke in the next few weeks .
Don't blame Biden - he just inherited the situation; the blame should be laid at the foot of Blair and Bush junior for having invaded Afghanistan in 2001.

Conquest by the Taliban of so many Afghan provincial capitals with little or no fighting makes it clear that the Kabul regime has now lost so much public support that Afghan forces no longer want to sacrifice themselves for its survival.

Trump, to his credit, recognised that the existing Afghan administration was unsustainable and endeavoured to negotiate with the Taliban. The best thing that can be done now is to come to terms with the Taliban, but make it clear to them that recognition/co-operation is dependent on them not supporting or facilitating aggressive actions outwith the Muslim world.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,677
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
The speed with which the Taliban have taken control is frightening, and we can only despair and fear for the future of ordinary Afghans, girls and women in particular. But given that they are so strong after 20 years of Western intervention, would further sacrifice of our soldiers' and other lives really make any difference, and how long would it take for the fundamentalists to be permanently defeated - If that is even possible ?
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,947
Location
Nottingham
Don't blame Biden - he just inherited the situation; the blame should be laid at the foot of Blair and Bush junior for having invaded Afghanistan in 2001.

Conquest by the Taliban of so many Afghan provincial capitals with little or no fighting makes it clear that the Kabul regime has now lost so much public support that Afghan forces no longer want to sacrifice themselves for its survival.

Trump, to his credit, recognised that the existing Afghan administration was unsustainable and endeavoured to negotiate with the Taliban. The best thing that can be done now is to come to terms with the Taliban, but make it clear to them that recognition/co-operation is dependent on them not supporting or facilitating aggressive actions outwith the Muslim world.
I'm not sure the last part would be credible if the first hadn't happened.
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,755
Location
York
The speed with which the Taliban have taken control is frightening, and we can only despair and fear for the future of ordinary Afghans, girls and women in particular. But given that they are so strong after 20 years of Western intervention, would further sacrifice of our soldiers' and other lives really make any difference, and how long would it take for the fundamentalists to be permanently defeated - If that is even possible ?
I saw somewhere that the Afghan army was supposed to be about 300,000 strong, Western trained and pretty well equipped, whilst the Taliban had only some 75,000 fighters with nothing like the same quality of equipment. But doesn't the speed with which resistance to the Taliban has apparently collapsed shew that there must have been massive popular support for them (at least among the men) that was hopelessly underestimated by western commentators? Doesn't it seem fairly clear that a substantial proportion of the population of that country actually do want an extreme form of religious state?
 

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2020
Messages
5,191
Location
Birmingham
Doesn't it seem fairly clear that a substantial proportion of the population of that country actually do want an extreme form of religious state?
Time and time again the West doesn't get that not everyone wants the same as them.
 

67thave

Member
Joined
9 Nov 2020
Messages
100
Location
Long Island
Between this debacle, what occurred on January 6th, and the USA's highly incompetent COVID response, every nation on Earth should be asking themselves if America is truly the global superpower it claims to be.
If anything, the United States of 2021 is more similar to Argentina than it is to the United States of 1991 - a laughingstock of a nation with increasingly questionable stability, a gradually declining quality of life, astonishing gaps between the haves and have-nots, and delusions of being a developed nation.
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,136
The problem is that too large a proportion of the population in the place support Taliban style government. If it didn't, they wouldn't make the headway.
Yes, also we continually hear what overcrowded, poverty stricken & isolated, states like Gaza are , but no serious uprising’s taken place against Hamas
 
Last edited:

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
2,959
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
Yes, also we continually hear what overcrowded, poverty stricken & isolated, states like Gaza are , but no serious uprising’s taken place against Hamas.

Many Muslims are sympathetic to Hamas and probably wish the following: "This year in Kabul, next year in Jerusalem Al Quds."
 
Last edited:

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
960
Location
The North
Don't blame Biden - he just inherited the situation; the blame should be laid at the foot of Blair and Bush junior for having invaded Afghanistan in 2001.
Why should their be any singular blame. Afghanistan and the "war on terror" was justified . Too many people seem to want to blame Tony Blair for everything, wrongly.

The situation is far too complicated for simple arguments. I just fear for the women of Afghanistan and those who are deemed to have helped the west. The floggings and murders will begin again and the suppression of women in education will happen once more.
 

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
2,959
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
Why should there be any singular blame. Afghanistan and the "war on terror" was justified. Too many people seem to want to blame Tony Blair for everything, wrongly.
I blame Tony Blair, and also David Cameron, for their ignorance of history, and thus making huge mistakes in foreign policy. Anyone with knowledge of the several Anglo-Afghan wars (1839-1919), yet alone the ignominious outcome of the Russian occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s, would have steered clear of invading Afghanistan with a barge pole. "Wars on terror" are rarely successful, where the "terrorist" groups have significant support. Those perceived as terrorists to some are perceived as freedom fighters to others. This includes the Taliban and the IRA; Tony Blair took a very different approach to the latter.
 
Last edited:

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2020
Messages
5,191
Location
Birmingham
Hey just think of all those trained soldiers and modern military equipment, i'm sure the Taliban and their mates will make better use of them.

What a colossal failure of Western military power and intelligence, biggest disaster since Saigon... though interestingly one of the helicopters used in the evacuation of Saigon has apparently been spotted (by now in "civilian contractor" get-up) flying over Kabul!
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,325
Location
Fenny Stratford
I blame Tony Blair, and also David Cameron, for their ignorance of history, and thus making huge mistakes in foreign policy. Anyone with knowledge of the Anglo-Afghan (1839-1919), yet alone the ignominious outcome of the Russian occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s, would have steered clear of invading Afghanistan with a barge pole. "Wars on terror" are rarely successful, where the "terrorist" groups have significant support. Those perceived as terrorists to some are perceived as freedom fighters to others. This includes the Taliban and the IRA; Tony Blair took a very different approach to the latter.

Shall we try and keep a grip here? Terrorist regime flies planes into office blocks killing many. Lets punish them for murdering our people! oh hang on the Anglo Afgham war of 1839 to 1919 didn't go well. Yeah, just send out a strongly worded statement. That will learn them.

BTW: OF COURSE you blame Tony Blair. :rolleyes:
 

SynthD

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2020
Messages
1,168
Location
UK
You don't punish one terrorist group by invading the country where another is hiding in public.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,677
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
What a colossal failure of Western military power and intelligence, biggest disaster since Saigon

Is the colossal failure not actually the Afghan Government and security forces, who presumably have been trained and equipped at great expense by us, the US and others, but have utterly capitulated in the face of the Taliban ? Which is also why, tragically for those innocent citizens in Afghanistan, we cannot contemplate going back in.
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,374
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
While this turn of events was eminently predictable, I've been taken aback at the utter speed of capitulation. Mercifully it's happened with relatively little bloodshed so far. This wasn't Biden's doing but the continuation of a policy stretching back to Trump, Obama and maybe even GWB. Treating Afghanistan as some sort of fixer-upper project was never going to work, even after pumping in billions of dollars for infrastructure and security.
 

Geezertronic

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2009
Messages
4,093
Location
Birmingham
Between this debacle, what occurred on January 6th, and the USA's highly incompetent COVID response, every nation on Earth should be asking themselves if America is truly the global superpower it claims to be.

January 6th was a drop in the ocean compared to what was allowed to happen throughout 2020 in the US. Left-leaning Politicians would like you to believe that it was a bigger deal that it actually was without considering any of the death & destruction that came before it, and I am sure they will reflect that in their Democrat-led Select Committee on the subject.

The fact that the Afgans appear to have been left in the lurch with what seems to have been the immediate and unexpected withdrawal of US troops under the Biden administration is not lost on anyone
 

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2020
Messages
5,191
Location
Birmingham
Is the colossal failure not actually the Afghan Government and security forces, who presumably have been trained and equipped at great expense by us, the US and others, but have utterly capitulated in the face of the Taliban ? Which is also why, tragically for those innocent citizens in Afghanistan, we cannot contemplate going back in.
Where do you think the failure in intelligence comes in?
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,736
Location
Redcar
Shall we try and keep a grip here? Terrorist regime flies planes into office blocks killing many. Lets punish them for murdering our people! oh hang on the Anglo Afgham war of 1839 to 1919 didn't go well. Yeah, just send out a strongly worded statement. That will learn them.

Quite. You don't get to kill 3,000 people and get away with a stern telling off. Launching airstrikes and using special forces to attack Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan for launching such an attack and then turning fire on the Taliban for sheltering such an organisation was a legitimate response. We can certainly argue about whether an "eye for an eye" is a sensible foreign policy strategy overall but if that had been the limit of Western involvement (a month or so of airstrikes and special forces operations) then it would be hard to argue that it would have been anything other than a successful mission. Al-Qaeda have, after all, never really recovered from the pasting they got in late 2001 and the Taliban regime fell only a few months after 9/11.

Of course Bush, Blair and, perhaps more importantly, their advisers (for these were not men who acted entirely on their own initiative) decided for, whatever reason, that we could actually build something in Afghanistan. Now, I was only very young when this was all going off, but in the years since I cannot recall a politician ever being honest and admitting that, whilst this is certainly a noble goal, it is one that would have taken generations to achieve. To do it would have meant Western soldiers being in Afghanistan and Western aid money being spent for maybe fifty years. Maybe even a bit more. As soon as we decided that we wanted to build a Western style democracy in Afghanistan that meant we began a multi-generational project from which there could be no swift exit without scenes like we've seen.

Admitting that, however, I don't think was ever high on the agenda.

Perhaps there was some third path between a month of airstrikes and then leave them to their own devices and twenty years of blood and treasure spilled to end up back where we began. Perhaps something funky with restoring the monarchy or perhaps something more akin to a Tribal council (my understanding remains that Afghanistan remains very rooted in tribal politics and people feel more kinship to their Tribe than to Afghanistan, at least outside of somewhere like Kabul). Or heck, maybe we could have done something novel like asked some regular Afghans for their thoughts...

But in any event we are where we are. The main thing that angers and upsets me now (apart from the waste of lives be they British, American, Canadian, New Zealander or, lets not forget who has lost the most, Afghani) is the way that we seem to be leaving behind those who helped us and took us at our word to die. Often, it appears, for want of the correct paperwork. A noble exception to the British Ambassador to Afghanistan who appears to have remained behind at the airport in order to personally process as many applications as possible. In some respects it's this which probably has the longest term implications. Next time we need someone's help in some far away country are they really going to trust us again? After seeing what we did to so many Afghani's who did help us?

You don't punish one terrorist group by invading the country where another is hiding in public.

I think you'll have to expand that slightly but I believe it's pretty settled that Al-Qaeda absolutely were in Afghanistan and that the Taliban did allow them to base and operate in Afghanistan. So attacking Afghanistan was a perfectly rational response to the attack on the World Trade Centre.

I've been taken aback at the utter speed of capitulation

It will be interesting to find out how that happened. There's plenty of rumour and speculation swirling online at the moment from stuff alleging that various Afghan government officials were paid off or secretly cut deals to claims that the security situation has clearly been far worse for far longer and it was not being made public. But whatever the cause of the collapse it has been spectacularly swift. Was it really only the middle of last week people were talking about how Kabul would only likely be under threat, under threat not fallen, in ninety days?
 

wireforever

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2019
Messages
125
Tobias Elwood talking some sense on Sky news this morning about Afghanistan .The foreign secretary in on holiday the defence secretary sounds clueless and what will recalling Parliament achieve
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,374
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
Was it really only the middle of last week people were talking about how Kabul would only likely be under threat, under threat not fallen, in ninety days?

It was indeed only last week. Many diplomatic eyes have been taken off many diplomatic balls, almost outright denial that this chain of events was even a possibility.

Tobias Elwood talking some sense on Sky news this morning about Afghanistan .The foreign secretary in on holiday the defence secretary sounds clueless and what will recalling Parliament achieve

As ever it's about being seen to do the right thing. Some harrumphing across the Commons floor, plenty of hand-wringing, vague murmurings in order to confirm agreement that the UK refuses to acknowledge the new Taliban government. Usual inconsequential stuff. What should or could have been an emergency effort to prevent the patient from expiring is now just an extended wake for the loss of the patient twenty years of investment and good intentions.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,736
Location
Redcar
and what will recalling Parliament achieve

Practically? Not much. We'd have needed Parliament to have sat this time last week, at the absolute latest, if we were actually going to do something.

But I do think it's important that we try and get back to Parliament actually scrutinising the Government of the day and asking questions of ministers. During the pandemic Parliament has been rendered nearly totally supine either not being consulted at all or just being consulted long after incredibly important regulations with huge consequences have been passed. So Parliament being recalled to ask questions of the Government and its ministers, to me, is an important sign of trying to get back to Parliament actually doing its job.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,325
Location
Fenny Stratford
A noble exception to the British Ambassador to Afghanistan who appears to have remained behind at the airport in order to personally process as many applications as possible.
The French and Canadian ambassadors also doing the same thing I understand. Should have all been dealt with as part of an orderly withdrawal.

Worse still we are leaving behind local people who have helped us achieve our national goals and leaving them to god knows what fate.
Now, I was only very young when this was all going off, but in the years since I cannot recall a politician ever being honest and admitting that, whilst this is certainly a noble goal, it is one that would have taken generations to achieve. To do it would have meant Western soldiers being in Afghanistan and Western aid money being spent for maybe fifty years. Maybe even a bit more. As soon as we decided that we wanted to build a Western style democracy in Afghanistan that meant we began a multi-generational project from which there could be no swift exit without scenes like we've seen.
I wasn't very young. It was clearly a mistake to try and impose our system BUT that system does seem to have provided better "life opportunities" for women especially in relation to education and status. That will be gone now.
Tobias Elwood talking some sense on Sky news this morning about Afghanistan
He needs to do something about his boss otherwise it is just noise, right as he may be.

So Parliament being recalled to ask questions of the Government and its ministers, to me, is an important sign of trying to get back to Parliament actually doing its job.
Single line whip, no vote: talking shop. I will be surprised if Johnson and/or Raab actually turn up!
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
8,208
Location
SE London
Sadly they have died for nothing.

Except... they wouldn't have died for nothing if we hadn't suddenly pulled out. After all the terrible fighting of the first years after we went into Afghanistan, the country had become stable-ish, with people able to go about their lives, at least in cities and Government-controlled areas. And there's no way to tell how many deaths from terrorist attacks in the West have been avoided because the Taliban was no longer able to shelter/train Al Qaeda/etc., but it's probably substantial.

And now all thrown away because in Trump/Biden (and much of the left's) eagerness to have no troops on foreign soil, we blinded ourselves to that Afghan stability depended on there being some continuing presence of Western troops.

Imagine if - say - in the 1960's, America had taken the same attitude in Europe, and said 'OK, we've had soldiers in Europe for 20 years, and the USSR are still threatening them. We've obviously failed. If the UK, France and Germany etc. can't defend themselves from the Soviets without our support by now, they're never going to be able to do it. Let's just pull all our troops out overnight and tell European Governments to defend themselves'.... (Yeah, not a perfect analogy I know, but similar in some ways)
 
Last edited:

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,102
Location
Yorks
Except... they wouldn't have died for nothing if we hadn't suddenly pulled out. After all the terrible fighting of the first years after we went into Afghanistan, the country had become stable-ish, with people able to go about their lives, at least in cities and Government-controlled areas. And there's no way to tell how many deaths from terrorist attacks in the West have been avoided because the Taliban was no longer able to shelter/train Al Qaeda/etc., but it's probably substantial.

And now all thrown away because in Trump/Biden (and much of the left's) eagerness to have no troops on foreign soil, we blinded ourselves to that Afghan stability depended on there being some continuing presence of Western troops.

Imagine if - say - in the 1960's, America had taken the same attitude in Europe, and said 'OK, we've had soldiers in Europe for 20 years, and the USSR are still threatening them. We've obviously failed. If the UK, France and Germany etc. can't defend themselves from the Soviets without our support by now, they're never going to be able to do it. Let's just pull all our troops out overnight and tell European Governments to defend themselves'.... (Yeah, not a perfect analogy I know, but similar in some ways)

I suppose the difference is that there wasn't a grass roots support for soviet communism in Britain, France and Germany at that time. Yes, there were student movements and minor political parties in the three, but the populations by and large remained and remain of a "western" values system.

Plus France and Britain in particular were able to bring more to the table generally in terms of defence capability.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,699
The videos coming from the airport are absolutely terrifying to witness. Videos of people clinging onto planes and running Infront of planes in runway. Unverified reports and videos of people falling off in the air.

American helicopters hovering Infront of planes taking off to try clear runway of pedestrians. It is not a good image for the US this at all and sense things for Biden will get worse as the US wakes up.
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,282
Location
No longer here
The videos coming from the airport are absolutely terrifying to witness. Videos of people clinging onto planes and running Infront of planes in runway. Unverified reports and videos of people falling off in the air.

American helicopters hovering Infront of planes taking off to try clear runway of pedestrians. It is not a good image for the US this at all and sense things for Biden will get worse as the US wakes up.
Just saw this. Dreadful. What a catastrophe.
 

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
4,311
Location
County Durham
I feel ashamed to be British right now. To leave the people of Afghanistan to suffer like this is utterly appaling. Sadly, not very surprising it's happened given we have Boris as PM, and Biden has turned out to be about as much use as a chocolate teapot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top