Government set to go ahead with Labour Thameslink and NW plans

[northwichcat]

An order for Thameslink stock is set to be announced on Tuesday, which will see 319s cascaded to North West routes as new routes see overhead wires. (source: Financial Times.)

While extra carriages are needed and more than welcome in the North West the 319s are hardly ideal. Most local stations in the North West have up to 6 carriage platform lengths meaning the 319s can't work in multiple. Even if platforms are lengthened the lack of corridor connectors creates bigger much bigger revenue collection problems than on Thameslink. The 319s also have less capacity than a pair of 156s. The DC shoes will also be wasted.

Refurbishing 319s and keeping them on Thameslink alongside additional new trains is a more sensible option.

The ideal EMUs for the North West would be 75% 3 car and 25% 2 car with corridor connectors which will allow most off peak services to be 3 cars and peak services to be 4, 5 or 6 cars as demand dedicates.

 

[b0b]

Refurbishing 319s and keeping them on Thameslink alongside additional new trains is a more sensible option.

Wouldn't the 319 stock require to get ATC so that the full 24tph service can run through the core? I doubt that retrofitting ATC to the 319 stock will be cheap, if even technically possible.

 

[PhilipW]

I think that the North West should be extremely pleased that the 4 Lancashire Electrifications are going ahead. Therefore it is hardly the right time to start whinging about rolling stock.

I would have thought that 4-car refurbished 319s are an awful lot better that what they have at the moment.

Cheer up.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....While extra carriages are needed and more than welcome in the North West the 319s are hardly ideal.... Even if platforms are lengthened the lack of corridor connectors creates bigger much bigger revenue collection problems than on Thameslink. The 319s also have less capacity than a pair of 156s....

Refurbishing 319s and keeping them on Thameslink alongside additional new trains is a more sensible option....

Only if they are compatible with the new trains, in any case, 12 car 319s are restricted to 75mph on OLE and to 10mph between Farringdon and City Thameslink. The lack of connections is no more of an issue than with 142s and 150/1s. Pairs of 156s are rare on the Chat Moss sevices, with 4 car services usually formed of 142s and 150s.

....The ideal EMUs for the North West would be 75% 3 car and 25% 2 car with corridor connectors....

And where would they get those from?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wouldn't the 319 stock require to get ATC so that the full 24tph service can run through the core? I doubt that retrofitting ATC to the 319 stock will be cheap, if even technically possible.

It has already been noted in some places that automatic control is prohibitively expensive for the new stock to use, nevermind fitting it to trains that are nearly a quarter of a century old.

 

[b0b]

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/n...k-project/article-2910211-detail/article.html

 

[LE Greys]

The ideal EMUs for the North West would be 75% 3 car and 25% 2 car with corridor connectors which will allow most off peak services to be 3 cars and peak services to be 4, 5 or 6 cars as demand dedicates.

I'd say 100% 3-car with the option of extending to 4-car later (or 100% 4-car from the off if they are 319s). Allow for the "sparks effect" and a bit of growth, and lengthen all the platforms while the line is closed for wiring (assuming you have room). Chances are the lines will go over to DOO anyway when electrification happens, so there's going to be a lot of platform-level work anyway.

 

[ukrob]

I'd say 100% 3-car with the option of extending to 4-car later (or 100% 4-car from the off if they are 319s). Allow for the "sparks effect" and a bit of growth, and lengthen all the platforms while the line is closed for wiring (assuming you have room). Chances are the lines will go over to DOO anyway when electrification happens, so there's going to be a lot of platform-level work anyway.

Anything to back that up?

 

[LE Greys]

Anything to back that up?

It's pure speculation (that's why I said "chances are"). However, I'm assuming that they will look at cutting costs by reducing on-board staff, and Thameslink already uses DOO throughout. Lines closed for electrification would be fairly easy to adapt for other things as well (I also expect signalling renewals). It's happened before many times, so I expect it to happen again.

 

[ukrob]

It's pure speculation (that's why I said "chances are"). However, I'm assuming that they will look at cutting costs by reducing on-board staff, and Thameslink already uses DOO throughout. Lines closed for electrification would be fairly easy to adapt for other things as well (I also expect signalling renewals). It's happened before many times, so I expect it to happen again.

I don't disagree it has been done before

Northern will seriously need to look at their staffing at stations if this is the case though, a large number of stations on the routes to be electrified are single manned with a period of closure in the middle of the day for a changeover. There might be some unstaffed stations too, I can't think of any off the top of my head though. They should be looking at adding door controls to every carriage and banning guards from the rear cabs rather than going the DOO route in my opinion. Lost revenue is a serious problem.

I should also add that people who say platforms need extending are living in a dreamworld if they think the 319s would run in multiple in passenger service in the north west. A single 319 is more than doubling the passenger capacity of almost all Northerns current DMU routes.

 

[westcoaster]

Thameslink already uses DOO throughout.

the door system on 319's has only just had door control moved to the master controller, and the door key switch plated over not much work to change it back.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Only if they are compatible with the new trains, in any case, 12 car 319s are restricted to 75mph on OLE and to 10mph between Farringdon and City Thameslink.

only if there is a stones faiveley fitted to any one unit, if all 3 units are brecknel willis fitted then they are ok for 100mph, now 15mph through snow hill due to power upgrades.

 

[driver9000]

I don't disagree it has been done before

Northern will seriously need to look at their staffing at stations if this is the case though, a large number of stations on the routes to be electrified are single manned with a period of closure in the middle of the day for a changeover. There might be some unstaffed stations too, I can't think of any off the top of my head though

Layton,Salwick,Blackrod,Moses Gate,Farnworth,Kearsley and Clifton are all unstaffed stations within the 'electrification zone'. There are probably a few more at the Manchester end of the Chat Moss but I don't sign that route so I'm not sure.

 

[Aictos]

One question though with regards to the North West, now say the majority of the platforms take 6 cars already, what would stop the platforms being extended to 8 cars while the line though that station is being electrified?

I can't comment on usage there BUT surely it would be better with hindsight to roll out a platform lengthening programme at stations to lengthen them to 8 cars which would simulate growth by being able to run 8 car trains.

I'm sure there must be some services which could do with being a 4 or a 8 car service, take the current FTPE services between Manchester and Edinburgh which I know are either 3 or 6 car services which could easily be 4 or 8 car trains especially if the WCML InterCity operator is speeding up their various services between Glasgow and Euston.

Now to the actual 319s, I think we will be all pleasantly surprised when they get refurbished with Air Conditioning etc....

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Layton,Salwick,Blackrod,Moses Gate,Farnworth,Kearsley and Clifton are all unstaffed stations within the 'electrification zone'. There are probably a few more at the Manchester end of the Chat Moss but I don't sign that route so I'm not sure.

Farnworth is staffed from about 0630-1200 M-F only. Patricroft is on Chat Moss and unstaffed, that's it I think. Strangely, electrification seems to unstaff some stations, Barrassie on the Ayr-Glasgow being an example. I think Blackrod would warrant staffing regardless; it can be fairly busy in the morning!

 

[asylumxl]

I like our 319s on TL, they are quite nice units, certainly better than the diesel equivalents in my opinion.

 

[scotsman]

Nice to see that this scheme is being kept by the ConDems. However, I would point out that the new trains are going to the areas where the Tories hold the majority of seats.

 

[ukrob]

Nice to see that this scheme is being kept by the ConDems. However, I would point out that the new trains are going to the areas where the Tories hold the majority of seats.

Pretty irrelevant as Labour announced it.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Sorry to ask the most stupid question ever, but is the North West Electrification scheme just:
Manchester Piccadilly/Victoria-Bolton-Chorley-Preston-Blackpool; and
Manchester Piccadilly/Victoria-Eccles-Rainhill-Wavertree TP-Liverpool L St (the Chat Moss Line)

Sorry to ask such a stupid question, but with all the speculation around it (i.e. electrifying TransPennine etc too), I've gotten really confused with it...

About DOO/station staffing etc:
The Blackpool line:
All have sufficient staffing (from before 0700 to well after 1700) to 'cope' with the need for tickets in DOO: Blackpool N, Poulton-le-Fylde, Kirkham & Wesham, Preston, Chorley, Horwich Pkwy, Lostock, Bolton, Salford Crescent, Salford Central, Manchester Victoria, Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Rd and Manchester Piccadilly

Only staffed stations for short periods (from 0700 to roughly 1330), and may not have the staffing level suitable for DOO: Adlington (Lancs) and Farnworth

Unstaffed: Layton, Blackrod, Moses Gate and Kearsley: it'll be interesting to see what happens here, Blackrod has 100,000+ passengers a year, with the other three closer to 30,000

NB - Salwick and Clifton (both unstaffed) are not served by any trains currently on the proposed DOO routes)

For the Chat Moss Line:
All have sufficient staffing (from before 0700 to well after 1700) to 'cope' with the need for tickets in DOO: All stations from Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool Lime St

Only staffed stations for short periods (from 0700 to roughly 1330), and may not have the staffing level suitable for DOO: Eccles

Unstaffed: Patricroft

Hope the above helps whatever people think about DOO and staffing.

 

[YorkshireBear]

4 lancashire electrifications? i only thought there was man vic - liverpool and manchester - blackpool?

 

[asylumxl]

Nice to see that this scheme is being kept by the ConDems. However, I would point out that the new trains are going to the areas where the Tories hold the majority of seats.

Elstree & Borehamwood, Radlett, Harpenden are all Conservative

Luton is entirely Labour.

Harlington, Flitwick and Bedford are Conservatives.

Not really surprising considering most of the places along the line are inhabited mainly by Chelsea tractor driving middle-class folk...

 

[ukrob]

4 lancashire electrifications? i only thought there was man vic - liverpool and manchester - blackpool?

It is MANCHESTER to Liverpool via Chat Moss route, not just Victoria

Huyton - Wigan too. I think Preston - Blackpool was counted as a separate project, making up the four.

 

[YorkshireBear]

k so blackpool liverpool trains will they become electric?

 

[Aictos]

4 lancashire electrifications? i only thought there was man vic - liverpool and manchester - blackpool?

So did I unless we're also seeing Barrow -in- Furness and Windermere being done which would mean EMUs on the FTPE WCML route instead of the 185s.

Still, I can think of a number of infill schemes in the North which would deliver much needed economic and social benefits, being able to have longer trains with more seats must surely be preferable to short trains with no seats being available.

 

[Old Timer]

Pretty irrelevant as Labour announced it.

It doesn't matter, we are back to days of "damned when they do, and double damned when they dont".

Didn't take long :roll:

 

[PhilipW]

k so blackpool liverpool trains will they become electric?

Yes.

For clarity the 4 schemes are
1) Liverpool Edge Hill to Manchester Victoria and Deansgate (via Chat Moss)
2) Manchester to Preston (via Chorley)
3) Preston to Blackpool
4) Huyton to Wigan (via St Helens)

 

[scotsman]

Pretty irrelevant as Labour announced it.

No, probably the reason why it wasn't axed!

 

[northwichcat]

Layton,Salwick,Blackrod,Moses Gate,Farnworth,Kearsley and Clifton are all unstaffed stations within the 'electrification zone'. There are probably a few more at the Manchester end of the Chat Moss but I don't sign that route so I'm not sure.

You also need to consider understaffed stations and stations with unreliable ticket machines. As many Northern ticket offices only have one person on duty at a time it means during staff sickness ticket offices which should be open are closed.

Pairs of 156s are rare on the Chat Moss sevices, with 4 car services usually formed of 142s and 150s.

However, pairs of 156s and 5 car 180s are not rare on Manchester-Preston/Blackpools so a single 319 will be a drop in capacity unless 319s are put on to Manchester to Crewe/Stokes and doubled up 323s are put on Manchester to Preston/Blackpools.

 

[driver9000]

From what I can find a single class 319 is an increase in current capacity even when comparing double sets. 2x156s have seating for around 300 passengers (approximately 75 per vehicle), a 5 car 180 has seating for 287 (inc. wheelchair spaces) and a 4 car 319 has around 316 seats (depending on refurbishment configuration). Add standing room and they will be able to carry more passengers.

 

[northwichcat]

I would have thought that 4-car refurbished 319s are an awful lot better that what they have at the moment.

319s will be better than Pacers but by the time they arrive it will be approaching Pacer scrapping time (2019 was agreed in the mid-1990s under DDA) so I can see 319s been seen partly as a 14x replacement opposed to lots of extra carriages.

Incidentally GMITA are pushing for tram-trains as Pacer replacements so we could see new units that have disadvantages over Pacers!

 

[ukrob]

However, pairs of 156s and 5 car 180s are not rare on Manchester-Preston/Blackpools so a single 319 will be a drop in capacity unless 319s are put on to Manchester to Crewe/Stokes and doubled up 323s are put on Manchester to Preston/Blackpools.

A single 319 has a greater seated capacity than both your examples. You just seem to be dead-set against the idea.

 

[northwichcat]

From what I can find a single class 319 is an increase in current capacity even when comparing double sets. 2x156s have seating for around 300 passengers (approximately 75 per vehicle), a 5 car 180 has seating for 287 (inc. wheelchair spaces) and a 4 car 319 has around 316 seats (depending on refurbishment configuration). Add standing room and they will be able to carry more passengers.

Northern's 156s have 163 seats per unit, which makes 326 seats on a doubled up service.

When electrification was first announced the expectation was that the 319s would be refurbished to be of 158/9 standard with 2+2 seating throughout, air conditioning and retention toilets. This would make the new 319 capacity slightly higher than a pair of Wessex 150s, which would be around 260.