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They did use driver open and guard close on the 170s originally but there was an argument with the RMT when the 222s were introduced and the current setup of the driver selecting the SDO and releasing the doors to the train manager was agreed upon. The MML 170/1s originally had a non standard deselect system whereby the driver would deselect the front coach and run that off the platform, as per HSTs at various short platform stations. They could be worked with guard door release (and were by Central Trains) but only by releasing the full train, until they were standardised by Cross Country in about 2013 or so, they now work in the same way as their 170/3/6 units.
The EMR 170s are fully guard operated doors - they have a manual selective door opening system that works by using the push button in each coach to select that vehicle as the last one that is released.
There are SDO buttons in the cabs (used by the guard if that vehicle happens to be the last one they want to use, running in multi for example) but if used in the active cab they will only release the doors on the front coach.
I have always found it very strange how the 375s and 377s are Driver Open Guard Close from the saloon but ten bell despatch from the cab. It makes no sense as the Guards panels in the cabs on these trains are even more advanced than the saloon panels and have door release buttons and door close buttons. So it makes no sense why they use the ten bell despatch method instead of just pressing the door close buttons.
On 375s, the Guard CAN close the doors from both the Saloon and the Cab with no problem.
With 377s, the door buttons in the cab are only livened with a Driver’s key active in the leading cab, so in a non-active cab, the only button that works with the Guard’s key active is the Signal Bell Button! Believe it was a ploy to try and discourage Guards from working trains from the cab, as it was preferred for them to be working from inside the train so as to be more visible to the travelling public! At peak times when the trains were busy (or other situations where the Guard felt personal safety was being compromised)…the train could be worked from the cab, the Guard being expected to contact the Driver to advise them they’ll be doing 10 Bell Dispatch and how many Stations they expect to be doing it for. Not just to be polite, but so as to reach a clear understanding between one another!
They’re unhappy with any unit not having a guard on it, albeit 8 car 360s have been running since May so to some extent the argument has already been lost!
The driver doesn’t actually count as a staff member for these purposes as they are perfectly within their rights to not leave their cab and ask for a line block for the TM to move between units via the ballast to deal with passcoms and egresses.
I’m sure a sensible compromise will be reached eventually. 180s no longer operate in multiple and again drivers don’t touch the door controls is my understanding.
That explains it. I remember at AGA they used to run entirely DOO as twelve coach units but i suppose they have different arrangements in place. It is a shame that they did not build the 360s like the 350s and 450s with end corridor connections like they had originally planned to do. Do the 222s run in multiple at all? Or do EMR not allow this?
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Regarding the Stourbridge Shuttle, I believe all the traincrew are trained to both drive and guard. However when I've used it one has been acting in one role and one in the other, sometimes swapping over at the other end. One DOOing and one sat there doing nowt is a new one on me, I suspect that was an unofficial arrangement between them.
I must admit I don't get why it has two crew at all, to be honest. It's shorter than your average bus, and like a bus has only one set of doors. Of all the trains that could be alleged to be less safe if they were DOO that isn't one of them. If it was in an airport it wouldn't have *any* crew!
Indeed. I have always found it very strange the 139s are not DOO. Considering it is such a tiny train and operates a tiny distance on a self contained branch line you would think it would be DOO. I am guessing it is probably due to some agreement with the unions that DOO was not allowed anywhere on the London Midland network.
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I believe at the same time the saloon panels were installed a modification was made to the door controls on the bulkhead adjacent to the cab door so that they were useable by the guard without a drivers’ key in the desk (similarly to how 365s were dispatched when being guard operated)
GWR Turbos are no longer 10 bell dispatch. The driver releases (boo) but the guard shuts the doors from either the rear cab or saloon controls, whichever convenient and then gives 2 to go.
As built, 180s were designed so that only the driver could release the doors. When Northern briefly had a few units, some kind of bodge job was arranged so that the guards could release the doors but I believe the leasing company that owned the fleet wasn't too impressed and those mods were removed after Northern finished with them.
It matches up with the 390s from the same manufacturer and era that has no way for the guard to give door release either.
Just curious why was the leasing company not happy with the modifications on them? What exactly were the modifications? Like did they just do a bad job of sticking some new buttons on the panel and connecting them to the electrics? Just curious what the modifications looked like?
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When they worked on FGW metals, the 180s had one of the most unusual door release procedures of them all; it might even have been unique? The driver would stop the train, and send a buzzer code to the guard. If the guard was happy that the train had stopped in the correct position they would return the code, and the driver would release the doors. Supposedly this kept the unions happy that the guard was still effectively in charge of door release. I'd be interested to know if that has ever been used elsewhere?
That sounds ridiculously complicating. Surely it would have been better to just modify them so that the Guard was able to open the doors himself. Have the GC and FHT units used this method? Or is it just normal Driver Open and Guard Close on these?
The Stourbridge shuttle is operated by Pre Metro Operations and the only connection it has with WMT network is that it operates under contract to them (with their branding).
On 375s, the Guard CAN close the doors from both the Saloon and the Cab with no problem.
With 377s, the door buttons in the cab are only livened with a Driver’s key active in the leading cab, so in a non-active cab, the only button that works with the Guard’s key active is the Signal Bell Button! Believe it was a ploy to try and discourage Guards from working trains from the cab, as it was preferred for them to be working from inside the train so as to be more visible to the travelling public! At peak times when the trains were busy (or other situations where the Guard felt personal safety was being compromised)…the train could be worked from the cab, the Guard being expected to contact the Driver to advise them they’ll be doing 10 Bell Dispatch and how many Stations they expect to be doing it for. Not just to be polite, but so as to reach a clear understanding between one another!
Many thanks for the information. I had always thought the 375s were ten bell despatch from the cab too. Can the Guard close the doors from the cab on the 377/5 loaned to SE? Or are these still ten bell despatch from the cab?
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The Stourbridge shuttle is operated by Pre Metro Operations and the only connection it has with WMT network is that it operates under contract to them (with their branding).
Legally it's a Pre Metro Operations Ltd service operating under contract to West Midlands Trains Ltd. But it's branded as part of West Midlands Railway.
They did use driver open and guard close on the 170s originally but there was an argument with the RMT when the 222s were introduced and the current setup of the driver selecting the SDO and releasing the doors to the train manager was agreed upon. The MML 170/1s originally had a non standard deselect system whereby the driver would deselect the front coach and run that off the platform, as per HSTs at various short platform stations. They could be worked with guard door release (and were by Central Trains) but only by releasing the full train, until they were standardised by Cross Country in about 2013 or so, they now work in the same way as their 170/3/6 units.
The EMR 170s are fully guard operated doors - they have a manual selective door opening system that works by using the push button in each coach to select that vehicle as the last one that is released.
There are SDO buttons in the cabs (used by the guard if that vehicle happens to be the last one they want to use, running in multi for example) but if used in the active cab they will only release the doors on the front coach.
Hmm, I might be wrong on this, but I was under the impression that 171s used door deselect instead of SDO. Door deselect requires the Guard to release the doors.
However, this may have changed so you could very well be right.
I suppose you are right that the correct term is "door deselect" rather than SDO.
The way that i thought it worked is that when the train arrives at Doleham or Three Oaks the Driver presses the "door deselect" button in the cab and then presses the door release buttons. This then only releases the doors in the front carriage only. I believe that when the "door deselect" button in the cab is pressed only the doors in the front carriage are released.
Obviously when at Normans Bay and Pevensey Bay and Winchelsea it is the front three coaches which is why the Guard has to go to the panel in the third coach and press the "door deselect" button and then release all the doors themselves.
But i am happy to be corrected if it is done differently now.
Legally it's a Pre Metro Operations Ltd service operating under contract to West Midlands Trains Ltd. But it's branded as part of West Midlands Railway.
I suspect as it's operated in that manner the contract would preclude DOO, but it is really strange. It's basically an Optare Solo (other low floor* minibuses are available) on rails, and nobody would be expecting to double-crew an Optare Solo bus. The driver is even inside the passenger compartment very similar to a bus, the cab isn't separated other than by a "no entry" bar.
* When talking about which TOCs have level boarding...I always forget to mention that this one was for the UK the first!
Many thanks for the information. I had always thought the 375s were ten bell despatch from the cab too. Can the Guard close the doors from the cab on the 377/5 loaned to SE? Or are these still ten bell despatch from the cab?
I believe so. Remember hearing about Conductors on 377/5s at SE during the first Lockdown being told that so they could work safely, to lock the rear carriage out of passenger use, and dispatch from the Saloon instead of working from the cab, due to having to use the 10 bell Procedure!
Which shows the illogicality of the present situation: You can travel from Glasgow Central to Bellhill, or vice versa, on a Class 385 Edinburgh service which must have a Guard, or on an identical unit on a Lanark service which is DOO !
Which shows the illogicality of the present situation: You can travel from Glasgow Central to Bellhill, or vice versa, on a Class 385 Edinburgh service which must have a Guard, or on an identical unit on a Lanark service which is DOO !
Correct. An in the same vein a Glasgow Central - Edinburgh via Carstairs runs over the exact same route to Lanark Jn but must have a Guard.
On the one occasion a Carstairs service ran from Glasgow to Motherwell via Cathcart due to a problem on the WCML all hell broke loose!
I suspect as it's operated in that manner the contract would preclude DOO, but it is really strange. It's basically an Optare Solo (other low floor* minibuses are available) on rails, and nobody would be expecting to double-crew an Optare Solo bus. The driver is even inside the passenger compartment very similar to a bus, the cab isn't separated other than by a "no entry" bar.
* When talking about which TOCs have level boarding...I always forget to mention that this one was for the UK the first!
I never realised the 139s had level boarding. I suppose it is only two stations and one type of train so that makes sense and is easy to achieve.
If i remember correctly i think that British Rail had a bunch of one coach units similar to the 139s (i think they may have been Pacer trains)? Does anyone know if these ran DOO or if they still had a Guard onboard?
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I believe so. Remember hearing about Conductors on 377/5s at SE during the first Lockdown being told that so they could work safely, to lock the rear carriage out of passenger use, and dispatch from the Saloon instead of working from the cab, due to having to use the 10 bell Procedure!
Many thanks. I suppose that Southeastern have just not bothered to modify their 377/5s then. I presume it is the same with their 377/1s too.
Any idea what happened on the Redhill to Tonbridge line 377/3s at the beginning of the corona virus that are operated by Southeastern Guards? Did they use ten bell despatch from the cab on these? Or did they lock the entire rear coach out of use? Just wondering as if so 1/3 of the train is surely a huge percentage to lock out of use?
Also i do not suppose you know if Guards are currently trained on 376s too? I know their allocated routes are all DOO but just wondering as i am sure i have heard of the 376s being used to Tonbridge in the past?
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Which shows the illogicality of the present situation: You can travel from Glasgow Central to Bellhill, or vice versa, on a Class 385 Edinburgh service which must have a Guard, or on an identical unit on a Lanark service which is DOO !
Correct. An in the same vein a Glasgow Central - Edinburgh via Carstairs runs over the exact same route to Lanark Jn but must have a Guard.
On the one occasion a Carstairs service ran from Glasgow to Motherwell via Cathcart due to a problem on the WCML all hell broke loose!
There is quite a few examples of this happening around the railway network. It makes no sense. You would think if it is the same stock and same route then both services can run DOO between these points.
As i mentioned above there was also a similar situation before Southern got rid of Guards where the 377s had to have a Guard all along the BML to and from London if they had originated from any East Coastway or West Coastway stations but if they originated from Brighton they could run DOO.
Also if i remember correctly i think the 465s and 466s can run DOO between Rochester - Chatham - Gillingham - Rainham if they have come from London via Dartford but must have a Guard if they have come from London via Swanley instead.
Then there is the odd situation where some of the GWR 165s and 166s journeys between Gatwick Airport and Redhill operate DOO but yet others do have a Guard onboard.
Also if i remember correctly i think the 465s and 466s can run DOO between Rochester - Chatham - Gillingham - Rainham if they have come from London via Dartford but must have a Guard if they have come from London via Swanley instead.
At a pinch, 465/6s don’t have in cab monitors, and stations on the Chatham mainline beyond Swanley don’t have platform dispatch equipment. So that’s a fairly straightforward reason why DOO isn’t possible on that route, but would be via the north Kent line where all stations have platform monitors.
Also i do not suppose you know if Guards are currently trained on 376s too? I know their allocated routes are all DOO but just wondering as i am sure i have heard of the 376s being used to Tonbridge in the past?
No idea on that one! I can’t remember ever seeing a 376 that far south (unless going ECS to Ramsgate for maintenance, but that move was almost always via the North Kent).
Also if i remember correctly i think the 465s and 466s can run DOO between Rochester - Chatham - Gillingham - Rainham if they have come from London via Dartford but must have a Guard if they have come from London via Swanley instead.
Southeastern run DOO within a specified area rather than by unit; with just a couple of exceptions. You can indeed run DOO down to Gillingham. Tonbridge is another location with unique local instructions.
Southeastern run DOO within a specified area rather than by unit; with just a couple of exceptions. You can indeed run DOO down to Gillingham. Tonbridge is another location with unique local instructions.
One thing I have never understood is why Tonbridge guards are rostered for the Sevenoaks - Orpy - London “flyers” which operate to replace mainline services during engineering when the line is shut between Sevenoaks and Tonbridge. That journey is entirely within the metro DOO area (which IIRC officially ends at Sevenoaks in that direction).
As i mentioned above there was also a similar situation before Southern got rid of Guards where the 377s had to have a Guard all along the BML to and from London if they had originated from any East Coastway or West Coastway stations but if they originated from Brighton they could run DOO.
Also if i remember correctly i think the 465s and 466s can run DOO between Rochester - Chatham - Gillingham - Rainham if they have come from London via Dartford but must have a Guard if they have come from London via Swanley instead.
Then there is the odd situation where some of the GWR 165s and 166s journeys between Gatwick Airport and Redhill operate DOO but yet others do have a Guard onboard.
Most of these oddities arise from historic DOO agreements, and their reinterpretation in the face of changing service patterns.
For example, Thames Trains (and NSE before that) used to operate Paddington-Oxford (semi)fast services using Turbos. These were DOO, as with the majority of their services. First Great Western operated most of the services beyond Oxford to Worcester and Hereford, using HSTs (so therefore not DOO).
When GWR introduced class 80x trains on the route, they were designed to have DOO capability. But suddenly these were operating both the Oxford terminators as well as the Worcester/Hereford services, so it was a mixture of the above two service groups. The RMT weren't happy about the proposals to run the Worcester/Hereford services DOO between London and Oxford.
Therefore I believe the agreement that was reached was that the 80x trains can run DOO, but only with a driver on an ex-TT (or more modern GWR) contract, and only if the service terminates at Oxford - it being deemed the successor to the Turbo service. Whereas if the train runs beyond Oxford, it's deemed an ex-HST service and therefore needs a guard throughout.
Many thanks. Irish Rail seem to like DOO operation. They even have DOO locomotive hauled trains on the Dublin to Cork route. Yes that would certainly be interesting to know what happens when they are on the enterprise especially as the 22000/29000 (along with 3000/4000 too) have been turning up on enterprise services a lot in recent years. I am presuming the Guard must have some sort of involvement in despatch in NI as none of the NI stations have any mirrors or CCTV monitors that the ROI stations have. As you say hopefully someone else can confirm.
I've spoken to a friend of a friend about this to find it how it works.
Irish Rail is DOO everywhere else, but on Cross Border services they must carry a guard. On the 201 / De Dietrich sets and on the 22000 the driver operates the doors to the guards instructions using the 10 bells method, and on the rare occasions the 29000 needs to be used, they use flags.
Southeastern run DOO within a specified area rather than by unit; with just a couple of exceptions. You can indeed run DOO down to Gillingham. Tonbridge is another location with unique local instructions.
I never realised that any DOO was allowed to Tonbridge. I always thought Sevenoaks was the limit. When the new Thameslink services to Maidstone finally start (which should have started years ago) will they need a Guard between Otford and Maidstone East stations? Or will DOO be agreed for these trains?
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Most of these oddities arise from historic DOO agreements, and their reinterpretation in the face of changing service patterns.
For example, Thames Trains (and NSE before that) used to operate Paddington-Oxford (semi)fast services using Turbos. These were DOO, as with the majority of their services. First Great Western operated most of the services beyond Oxford to Worcester and Hereford, using HSTs (so therefore not DOO).
When GWR introduced class 80x trains on the route, they were designed to have DOO capability. But suddenly these were operating both the Oxford terminators as well as the Worcester/Hereford services, so it was a mixture of the above two service groups. The RMT weren't happy about the proposals to run the Worcester/Hereford services DOO between London and Oxford.
Therefore I believe the agreement that was reached was that the 80x trains can run DOO, but only with a driver on an ex-TT (or more modern GWR) contract, and only if the service terminates at Oxford - it being deemed the successor to the Turbo service. Whereas if the train runs beyond Oxford, it's deemed an ex-HST service and therefore needs a guard throughout.
Thank you for the information. That does make sense. Although it is certainly confusing for passengers who will not have a clue whether or not a Guard is on their train.
If i remember correctly i think the 165s and 166s that run DOO between Gatwick Airport and Redhill are the ones that are driven by Southern drivers where as the ones that are driven by GWR drivers require Guards between these stations.
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I've spoken to a friend of a friend about this to find it how it works.
Irish Rail is DOO everywhere else, but on Cross Border services they must carry a guard. On the 201 / De Dietrich sets and on the 22000 the driver operates the doors to the guards instructions using the 10 bells method, and on the rare occasions the 29000 needs to be used, they use flags.
Thank you for finding out. Much appreciated. That is really interesting to hear. I had always wondered how they did this.
How odd that the Loco Hauled Sets and the 22000 were built with bells but the 29000 were not so have to use flags. There are not many examples of flags still being used nowadays. Do you know how exactly the flags work? For example are there two different colours and one is used to tell the driver to close the doors and another is used to tell the driver to depart? Or do they do it a different way? I would be interested to know as when flags are used here in the UK (such as on the GWR sleeper trains) the Guard still controls the doors?
I remember that Irish Rail also operate a once a day in each direction all stations stopper from Newry to Dublin in the morning and then back from Dublin to Newry in the evening. This is considered to be solely an Irish Rail service rather than an Enterprise service and is operated by 29000 trains. So would i be correct to assume this service has a Guard and uses flags between Dundalk and Newry stations? Or is it allowed to run DOO to and from NI as it only goes one station just over the border?
When the new Thameslink services to Maidstone finally start (which should have started years ago) will they need a Guard between Otford and Maidstone East stations? Or will DOO be agreed for these trains?
Do the drivers open the doors on the New Caledonian Sleeper MK5s? When I saw a rake in Euston a few months back, one of the GOPs was left open, and I could only see the blue ‘door close’ and signal bell buttons.
Sorry i will update my list. It should say anything beyond Sevenoaks/Shoreham/Swanley instead. I think there are some Southeastern services that run DOO past Dartford actually. Also i am still not 100% sure if it is Otford or Shoreham or Swanley where trains change from DOO to Guard operated on the Maidstone East line services as i have heard different things.
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Do the drivers open the doors on the New Caledonian Sleeper MK5s? When I saw a rake in Euston a few months back, one of the GOPs was left open, and I could only see the blue ‘door close’ and signal bell buttons.
Maybe they do. I am not sure. I can not find any evidence to show whether or not the Guards release the doors on these trains. But considering the Drivers do release the doors on the FTPE MK5 trains it is a possibility that they do on the Caledonian Sleeper too.
Having the Guard release the doors certainly makes more sense especially as the Caledonian Sleeper does a lot of dividing and attaching and changing locomotives. So getting the Driver to release the doors would seem to make it more complicating especially during all of the dividing and attaching and changing locomotives.
Have the 73s and 92s that work the Caledonian Sleeper been fitted with door controls? Hopefully someone else on this forum may be able to confirm which door control method that Caledonian Sleeper use?
Thank you for finding out. Much appreciated. That is really interesting to hear. I had always wondered how they did this.
How odd that the Loco Hauled Sets and the 22000 were built with bells but the 29000 were not so have to use flags. There are not many examples of flags still being used nowadays. Do you know how exactly the flags work? For example are there two different colours and one is used to tell the driver to close the doors and another is used to tell the driver to depart? Or do they do it a different way? I would be interested to know as when flags are used here in the UK (such as on the GWR sleeper trains) the Guard still controls the doors?
I remember that Irish Rail also operate a once a day in each direction all stations stopper from Newry to Dublin in the morning and then back from Dublin to Newry in the evening. This is considered to be solely an Irish Rail service rather than an Enterprise service and is operated by 29000 trains. So would i be correct to assume this service has a Guard and uses flags between Dundalk and Newry stations? Or is it allowed to run DOO to and from NI as it only goes one station just over the border?
That's all the info I have I'm afraid. I can only surmise that given the 29000 class were never intended to be used on anything other than Dublin suburban services they weren't equipped for guard working. To the best of my knowledge none of the units have TPWS or AWS fitted either meaning they need two drivers onboard North of the border
I also assume that both the regulations around NIR signalling equipment and having a guard onboard don't apply to the Newry services.
Sorry i will update my list. It should say anything beyond Sevenoaks/Shoreham/Swanley instead. I think there are some Southeastern services that run DOO past Dartford actually.
Also i am still not 100% sure if it is Otford or Shoreham or Swanley where trains change from DOO to Guard operated on the Maidstone East line services as i have heard different things.
That's all the info I have I'm afraid. I can only surmise that given the 29000 class were never intended to be used on anything other than Dublin suburban services they weren't equipped for guard working. To the best of my knowledge none of the units have TPWS or AWS fitted either meaning they need two drivers onboard North of the border
I also assume that both the regulations around NIR signalling equipment and having a guard onboard don't apply to the Newry services.
No worries. Thank you for the information. I shall keep an eye out next time i am over there and see how things operate. Especially as it does seem incredibly common these days for 3000/4000/22000/29000 to be on the Enterprise services.
In my entire life i have been on nine Enterprise trains with three being 3000s and three being 22000s and three being 29000s so i am not sure if i have just had bad luck and it is coincidence that every time i go they are using a DMU or if all their Locomotive Hauled trains are actually extremely unreliable.
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So just to clarify and make sure i have understood it correctly Southeastern are DOO on:
• London to Gillingham (for trains that have come from London via Dartford but NOT for trains that have come from London via Swanley)
• London to Otford (for trains that have come from London and are heading towards Maidstone / Ashford / Folkestone / Dover etc)
• London to Sevenoaks (for trains that have come from London and are heading towards Tonbridge / Ashford / Folkestone / Dover etc)
• London to Swanley (for trains that have come from London and are heading towards Medway / Canterbury / Margate / Ramsgate etc)
• Everywhere on the Class 395 trains.
So is DOO to Rainham only for Thameslink services? So all Southeastern services must have a Guard between Gillingham and Rainham stations?
• London to Sevenoaks (for trains that have come from London and are heading towards Tonbridge / Ashford / Folkestone / Dover etc)
• London to Swanley (for trains that have come from London and are heading towards Medway / Canterbury / Margate / Ramsgate etc)
All SE mainline services have guards for their entire journeys, who will do ticket checks/announcements, but not door/dispatch duties, in the DOO metro zone.
No, prior to 2018 SE ran metro services Charing + - Gillingham via the North Kent line which were DOO throughout. These were replaced by the present Thameslink Rainham service.
There were still some SE peak metro (DOO) services to Strood up until Covid, but I’m unsure whether these have been reinstated.
EDIT: sorry I misread your last. You’re correct that non HS DOO ends at Gillingham, again due to the lack of platform equipment. Other than the 395s, which as you correctly state are DOO everywhere, SE don’t have any stock with in-cab monitors
(to be pedantic their ex GTR 377s retain in-cab monitors, but they aren’t used on SE infrastructure).
• London to Gillingham (for trains that have come from London via Dartford but NOT for trains that have come from London via Swanley)
• London to Otford (for trains that have come from London and are heading towards Maidstone / Ashford / Folkestone / Dover etc)
• London to Sevenoaks (for trains that have come from London and are heading towards Tonbridge / Ashford / Folkestone / Dover etc)
• London to Swanley (for trains that have come from London and are heading towards Medway / Canterbury / Margate / Ramsgate etc)
All SE mainline services have guards for their entire journeys, who will do ticket checks/announcements, but not door/dispatch duties, in the DOO metro zone.
No, prior to 2018 SE ran metro services Charing + - Gillingham via the North Kent line which were DOO throughout. These were replaced by the present Thameslink Rainham service.
There were still some SE peak metro (DOO) services to Strood up until Covid, but I’m unsure whether these have been reinstated.
But the Guards are not guaranteed in the Metro area are they? I thought it worked similar to Southern OBS where Guards are suppose to be onboard but the train can still run without Guards to Otford/Sevenoaks/Swanley if it is necessary? Or is it actually guaranteed? So a mainline train can not run at all in the Metro area without a Guard onboard?
For your second point i should have been more clear. I was referring solely to DOO between Gillingham and Rainham stations. I am aware that Southeastern have always run DOO to Gillingham via Dartford but not on the short one stop section just from Gillingham to Rainham like the Thameslink services do.
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Thank you very much for confirming. That is very helpful. So on the 395s is an OBM guaranteed onboard all 395s on both the high speed lines and on the normal lines? Or does it work like Southern OBS where the train can run without one if it is necessary to?
Thank you very much for confirming. That is very helpful. So on the 395s is an OBM guaranteed onboard all 395s on both the high speed lines and on the normal lines? Or does it work like Southern OBS where the train can run without one if it is necessary to?
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