Government set to go ahead with Labour Thameslink and NW plans

[ukrob]

Northern's 156s have 163 seats per unit, which makes 326 seats on a doubled up service.

When electrification was first announced the expectation was that the 319s would be refurbished to be of 158/9 standard with 2+2 seating throughout, air conditioning and retention toilets. This would make the new 319 capacity slightly higher than a pair of Wessex 150s, which would be around 260.

I have never seen that before. You said it yourself - it was expectation.

Only air conditioning, DDA compliance and retention toilets were ever mentioned as far as I am aware.

 

[northwichcat]

A single 319 has a greater seated capacity than both your examples. You just seem to be dead-set against the idea.

No a 319 currently has less seats than a pair of Northern 156s if you check the facts before posting.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....There are probably a few more at the Manchester end of the Chat Moss but I don't sign that route so I'm not sure.

Eccles is 'part time', Patricroft is unmanned, the rest of the stations on the line (all in Merseyside) are 2 shifts I think.

 

[northwichcat]

I have never seen that before. You said it yourself - it was expectation.

Only air conditioning, DDA compliance and retention toilets were ever mentioned as far as I am aware.

It was Sadiq Kahn who appeared on TV on a visit to Liverpool shortly after the electrification announcement who said the 319s would be completely refurbished to almost intercity standard. This was before Blackpool electrification had been confirmed and as 156s are currently the usual traction on Liverpool-Manchester Airports it would have seen as an improvement to have 4 cars of 2+2 seating even if the 4 cars are not 23m long as with the 156s.

 

[TheBigD]

Northern's 156s have 163 seats per unit, which makes 326 seats on a doubled up service...

No they don't.

The 156's as built has 150 seats.

Some have had extra luggage racks installed reducing capacity to either 146 or 148. Some have a couple of extra tip up seats in the cycle area but NONE have 163 seats.

 

[ukrob]

It was Sadiq Kahn who appeared on TV on a visit to Liverpool shortly after the electrification announcement who said the 319s would be completely refurbished to almost intercity standard.

Right, so you are basing this argument on guesswork from something an MP said to try and win votes rather than the documents which were released containing the facts.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Northern's 156s have 163 seats per unit, which makes 326 seats on a doubled up service.

if you check the facts before posting.

Pot. Kettle.

 

[northwichcat]

but NONE have 163 seats.

You better tell Angel Trains that then: http://www.angeltrains.co.uk/fleet/detail.aspx?ID=7

 

[driver9000]

The DMSL of a class 156 has seats for 74. The DMS has seats for 76. This gives a total of 150 seats for as single set, or 300 for a pair. The former ATN sets within Northern retain the original number of seats, with the addition of 3 tip up seats in the former parcels compartment at the leading end of the DMS. A few of the former FNW sets actually lost a couple of seats when they had extra luggage space added for working Manchester Airport services. The former FNW sets are quoted as having 146 seats per set with the loss of 4 seats from the DMSL, and the ATN sets are quoted as having 152 seats per set. Given these figures (and a near certainty that the 319s will not have their interiors changed) a single 319 does have a higher seating capacity than a pair of 156s.

My source for the class 156 seating is the 'madasafish' class 156 website and Northern traction school handouts which correspond with the website.

http://members.madasafish.com/~dysgraphyk/156/class156_contents.htm

 

[TheBigD]

You better tell Angel Trains that then: http://www.angeltrains.co.uk/fleet/detail.aspx?ID=7

Count them yourself...

http://members.madasafish.com/~dysgraphyk/156/class156_interior.htm

 

[ukrob]

You better tell Angel Trains that then: http://www.angeltrains.co.uk/fleet/detail.aspx?ID=7

Maybe someone will, because they are wrong.

It is all pretty academic anyway as none of us know what the service patterns will be by the time this happens.

 

[driver9000]

The figure of 163 seats was quoted when the 156s were being built. This took into account tip up seats that were never fitted, I think someone at Angel has somehow used the wrong figure when writing the website.

 

[Crossforth]

Does this mean that GMPTE will not get our 333s?

 

[northwichcat]

and a near certainty that the 319s will not have their interiors changed

Apart from the electrification announcement did state the cascaded Thameslink units will be fully refurbished. Full refurbishment suggests stripping out interiors and fitting new ones like what Merseyrail have done with 507s and 508s. I agree with other people that the exact arrangement of seating is open to interpretation. However, it's an almost certainty that if you get a completely new type of seat to replace BR ones that there will have to be at least slight changes to the arrangement and number of seats but whether it's 5 less seats or 50 less seats isn't known for certain.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does this mean that GMPTE will not get our 333s?

When it was suggested that the North West 323s would go to London Midland and be replaced by new EMUs, Metro demanded to have new EMUs as well which could have resulted in the 321s and 333s being cascaded. Now it looks overy likely only 1980s EMUs are coming to the North West I doubt Metro will want something like 24 319s to replace the 321s and 333s.

 

[Crossforth]

When it was suggested that the North West 323s would go to London Midland and be replaced by new EMUs, Metro demanded to have new EMUs as well which could have resulted in the 321s and 333s being cascaded. Now it looks overy likely only 1980s EMUs are coming to the North West I doubt Metro will want something like 24 319s to replace the 321s and 333s.

As long as we keep our 333s I don't mind as I like them very much

 

[YorkshireBear]

Are LM in need of any more 323's i thought they had anough for their routes?

And yes you are argueing about whether they are less capacity than a 4 car 156? but how many 4 car 156's operate? its not a fantastic amound... and also the serviece frequency will go up after electrification that much has been said so..... capacity will improve as ALL services will be 4 car and there will be more

(service increase is just for manchester liverpool that i have read) maybe an increase for others too

 

[northwichcat]

maybe an increase for others too

Doubtful as paths around Deansgate and Preston are very limited.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Back to the actual 319 cascade. The original intention was 319s would go to North West and Great Western electrified routes. Great Western electification is currently not on the cards and it's four services that'll switch to EMUs in the North West and as mentioned a lot of platforms can't take 8 cars so 86 319s can't all go to the North West unless some go to Merseyrail as 507/8 replacement. However, there would then not be enough for all Merseyrail services and the 2028 expiration date for the Merseyrail franchise was decided on the basis that Merseyrail themselves would buy new trains as 507/8 replacement.

Anyway, they'll be a surplus of 319s so I would think the new rolling stock order would allow for some 319s staying in London, whether or not the routes they are used on get switched.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

As a scheme such as electrification seems to bring along, can we expect any new platforms, remodelled junctions, station improvemnets etc as part of the North West's electrification?

 

[ukrob]

Who said GWML electrification is currently not on the cards? If anything, it will be announced as going ahead within a few days.

It isn't four services that will switch to EMUs in the NW anyway - there are four alone out of Lime Street (Wigans, Blackpools, Victorias and Picc/Airports).

Are you deliberately spreading misinformation on this thread? It has been on several occasions now.

 

[northwichcat]

Are you deliberately spreading misinformation on this thread? It has been on several occasions now.

The Coalition effectively said that all rail projects aren't going forward unless we announce otherwise. So far ONLY North West electrification has been confirmed, so ANY information on Crossrail, IEP or GW that isn't part of a government announcement is effectively misinformation.

I hadn't heard anything about GW electrification and after searching the Internet just now all I can find is that the government may announce a scaled back GW electrification scheme this week.

As for me deliberately spreading misinformation. Some of this information you are so calling 'misinformation' has come from what should be reliable sources. Earlier in the thread you were saying that something Sadiq Kahn said couldn't be taken seriously as it wasn't printed in the official document, even though he specifically came to the North West to answer rail users and local media questions on the electrification program.

 

[ukrob]

As for me deliberately spreading misinformation. Some of this information you are so calling 'misinformation' has come from what should be reliable sources. Earlier in the thread you were saying that something Sadiq Kahn said couldn't be taken seriously as it wasn't printed in the official document,

No. I said you were basing your argument on something an MP said at election time over the actual documentation with the facts in it. Quite naive to think the MP on this occasion was a reliable source (which party the MP is from is irrelevant of course).

I will say though that the Angel Trains website should be accurate and a reliable source.

 

[duffman82]

Is the North West Routes being electrified only the Chat Moss, or are the blackpool/Bolton routes getting done as well ?

 

[ukrob]

Is the North West Routes being electrified only the Chat Moss, or are the blackpool/Bolton routes getting done as well ?

Has been answered several times in this thread

 

[PhilipW]

Is the North West Routes being electrified only the Chat Moss, or are the blackpool/Bolton routes getting done as well ?

The 4 schemes are:
1) Liverpool Edge Hill to Manchester Victoria and Deansgate (via Chat Moss)
2) Manchester to Euxton Junction Preston (via Bolton)
3) Huyton to Wigan (via St Helens)
4) Preston to Blackpool North.

The Blackpool South branch is not included.

 

[duffman82]

The 4 schemes are:
1) Liverpool Edge Hill to Manchester Victoria and Deansgate (via Chat Moss)
2) Manchester to Euxton Junction Preston (via Bolton)
3) Huyton to Wigan (via St Helens)
4) Preston to Blackpool North.

The Blackpool South branch is not included.

Thanks Buddy.

 

[tbtc]

I can't believe we are arguing about this already, and saying it'll be a bad thing

Okay, a few facts. Based on *current* service provision, the Lancashire electrification will release about 30 DMUs. Half of these are Transpennine (Manchester Airport - Blackpool North/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh), half of these are Northern...

...of the Northern ones there are two 180s used each day, but the rest are mainly individual Pacers/ individual 150/156s. There are a couple of Pacers coupled to Sprinters, and a couple of doubled Pacers, but really not *that* large a proportion.

Bear in mind that a Pacer coach is about fifteen (?) metres, compared to the normal twenty/twenty three metre coaches for other units, and you have a significant increase in capacity.

Also, its worth remembering that the sucessful Shipley electrification was initially with cascaded units from the London area (the 308s), then replaced with new three car EMUs, then extended to four car EMUs (when the 333s had an additional carriage inserted). There's nothing "set in stone" here.

Also, the age of the 319s isn't a major issue. EMUs are designed to last a lot lot longer than DMUs - there are fewer working parts to "age" for a start.

I can't see any reason for complaining about what will be a massive increase in capacity. Look at the line through Manchester Oxford Road/ Deansgate. Dozens of services and almost all are three coaches or shorter. A real waste of capacity.

 

[ainsworth74]

I can't believe we are arguing about this already, and saying it'll be a bad thing

Indeed if the North West isn't happy then I'm sure there are routes in Yorkshire that will quite happily take them and inherent electrification on

 

[YorkshireBear]

Indeed if the North West isn't happy then I'm sure there are routes in Yorkshire that will quite happily take them and inherent electrification on

most certainly ! i have lists prepared for that day!

 

[ukrob]

Indeed if the North West isn't happy then I'm sure there are routes in Yorkshire that will quite happily take them and inherent electrification on

It seems only one person is unhappy - the vast vast majority of people are VERY happy with the proposals!

 

[YorkshireBear]

I can't believe we are arguing about this already, and saying it'll be a bad thing

Okay, a few facts. Based on *current* service provision, the Lancashire electrification will release about 30 DMUs. Half of these are Transpennine (Manchester Airport - Blackpool North/ Glasgow/ Edinburgh), half of these are Northern...

...of the Northern ones there are two 180s used each day, but the rest are mainly individual Pacers/ individual 150/156s. There are a couple of Pacers coupled to Sprinters, and a couple of doubled Pacers, but really not *that* large a proportion.

Bear in mind that a Pacer coach is about fifteen (?) metres, compared to the normal twenty/twenty three metre coaches for other units, and you have a significant increase in capacity.

Also, its worth remembering that the sucessful Shipley electrification was initially with cascaded units from the London area (the 308s), then replaced with new three car EMUs, then extended to four car EMUs (when the 333s had an additional carriage inserted). There's nothing "set in stone" here.

Also, the age of the 319s isn't a major issue. EMUs are designed to last a lot lot longer than DMUs - there are fewer working parts to "age" for a start.

I can't see any reason for complaining about what will be a massive increase in capacity. Look at the line through Manchester Oxford Road/ Deansgate. Dozens of services and almost all are three coaches or shorter. A real waste of capacity.

thats the same roundabout point i tried to make earlier youve done it much better though

 

[tbtc]

Indeed if the North West isn't happy then I'm sure there are routes in Yorkshire that will quite happily take them and inherent electrification on

Precisely!

We have plenty two car Pacers running around here. If you want to replace them with four car 100mph EMUs then I doubt we'll complain