BBC News Article - Rail industry urges workers not to spurn the train

[Robertj21a]

With the Green agenda coming to the fore of Government policy and action, the UK railway HAS to perform and deliver. I see no way round the Government having to support and enhance the offering.

Domestic air travel will be coming under increasing scrutiny as will the roads in and around cities. The Green push can only be of future benefit to the Industry as a whole. I do however see a shake up in the short term to at least appear to be doing something. Unions will have to make allowances for the current financial situation we‘re in and relinquish some control.

Interesting times ahead!

When will we have lost all the diesel trains ?

 

[Ianno87]

........but still a decidedly minute risk. Massively overridden by the convenience.

You should see some of the driving I've experienced. Slightly different circumstances by another driver and I'd be in a morgue.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A someone who is/was a rail commuter, and also someone with an interest in the rail industry, I thought I would throw my tuppence in this discussion for a change.

I would summerise the issue in that the "off peak is the new peak".

I have observed that trains are generally quiet until 9.30 - at which point they are getting busier (and more so each week). I used to be in the office for 8 every day, I now work from home a couple of hours, and catch the first offpeak trains whenever I can - its cheaper to do this than an 8 in 28 ticket which is priced between the Anytime day, and Off peak day return (and feels like a rip off to me, and many others - and also commented on by quite a few in the article).

Surely this just boils down to Supply/Demand. Demand is there before 9.30, but the price of anytime tickets mean is prohibitive for all but those who need to travel at that time (which is now, hardly anyone). The easy answer is to get rid of the Anytime fares and make the CDR/SVR valid all day - not sure who's going to pay for it though.

I have also noticed that people who have a car, and now choosing to drive all the way, rather than park and use the train. Could removing parking fee's from some stations help make the train more attractive again? Take Retford to Sheffield commuter, It would cost £10 to park at Retford for the day, plus the train fare. It would cost my £7 to park in Sheffield city centre for 10 hours (or £4.50 at a park and ride site near by), plus around £5 for petrol, including a bit for wear and tear. All things considered, if you have a car, its probably cheaper to drive (London excluded) - and thats before you start comparing a door to door drive, or every 10 minutes park and ride service with the hourly northern service on that route.

A lot of truth in that - £26 "peak" return , contraflow from Hemel Hempstead to Milton Keynes , plus parking. Person did it a couple of times this week and what do you get - not much really and certainly not a pristine station or any added value. You can see why people drive and pay to park , even if it means coping with the M1 delays.

Another example - a monthly trip from St Albans to Westminster - certainly not on a busy train at 0750 (but busier than before) - £30+. Her job means a monthly trip , added in coming down from Merseyside the night befoer and back the next day. Just not worth it for a new graduate job.

The monopoly of peak fares , paid for by the passenger is a model long gone I reckon. Especially with car parking taken as an unregulated bonus to TOC's. If the industry wants people back on trains , then there has to be some changes.

 

[bramling]

Or not waste time (precious hours of one's finite life span) commuting every single day when it is simply not necessary to perform one's job effectively.

Keep repeating this is a complete irrelevance for those who cannot or do not want to work from home.

The fact we keep hearing people bleating on about it suggests in many cases they cannot effectively work from home, but want to continue being able to do so by simply not carrying out elements of their work, which is how some (not all) people have been able to work from home over the last 18 months. All good things come to an end and all that.

Clearly some people genuinely thought they would be able to work from home forever - perhaps this is why many of the dogs bought during lockdown are now being got rid of?!

I'd hope you are right
Now should be the time that rail is really pushed forward with electrification, modernisation and decarbonising not pricing more and more traffic to less clean modes of transport on roads and in the air.

I think theres a real opportunity to 'move the market' somewhat onto the regional lines but this needs attractive fares and offers to get people to try the train, pushing what's currently a non existent commuter market isn't particularly going to get results.

The demographic now travelling does seem to skew towards the younger generation which is promising, as much as the environmental reasons its also much easier to keep on phones, tablets, social media etc than driving or flying.

Much could be done and needs to be but sticking with anytime fares, poor value seasons and expensive parking isn't doing anyone any favours.
The mask "dilemma" doesn't seem to help looking at the comments on the BBC site, a fair amount wont travel with a mask on whilst a seemingly not far off equal amount wont travel while theres no enforcement, both sides seem to be under the impression its still mandatory to a degree

Most of the current bout of mask moaning seems to centre around those who have returned to the office over the last week or two. No doubt in many cases accompanied by “it’s terrible, there were people on the train without a mask, I shouldn’t be being dragged kicking and screaming back to the office”.

What’s the betting these self-same people have been more than happy to spend copious amounts of time in restaurants and the like over the summer?

 

[Peter Sarf]

An extremely good point.

There are so many circumstances where the rail industry doesn't even to attempt to provide good value for money, or forces people to pre plan the minutae of every aspect of their journey just to get a decent fare (even I can't be bothered with it a lot of the time). People want consistently competitive pricing that doesn't restrict them too much and that isn't going to disappear at the drop of a hat when they want to travel, just for the convenience of the railway.

In short, the industry is too dependant on AP tickets and walk on fares are often uncompetitive.

In terms of my commute though, it's the most relaxing it's ever been, due to ease of finding a seat !

I have found many trains for leisure are much less crowded, thankfully.

The panic is starting to sink in. Like many I used to buy a four figure season ticket and now I commute by car only. Where’s the incentive to go back?

I think as crowding on trains got steadily worse and worse over decades people got used to it. Now having had a long break from that routine I cannot blame people for dragging their heels to pay for an ordeal.

I used to be the railway's greatest cheerleader and would use the train wherever possible. It now comes a distant second compared to driving due to comfort (more specifically 800s), prices, lack of connections and what feels like near constant cancellations/delays/short-forms.

Primarily though, I'm frankly not interesed in long distance travel until someone sorts out this god awful trend for ironing board seats & 10 car 'InterCity' EMUs which routinely get cut down to 5. I wonder how many others feel the same?

Three easy things the railways can do to improve.
1) Improving seat comfort that was unecessarily poor (too many complaints to ignore).
2) Improve information to passengers (maybe difficult to achieve in the past but this is the digital age).
3) Availability of alterntive routes, I mean where another TOC can be used as an alternative (I know the blame for that one lies with the Tories but using buses where an alternative rail route exists is embarrasing).
These are unecessary hurdles to improving patronage.

Price is a difficult one as subsidy has long been necessary I do not see how fares can come down unless there have been large enough profits since privatisation.

A way of working for *some* people.

Those who cannot or do not want to work from home are sick of hearing about it, especially when for many it boils down to because they can’t be bothered to commute.

Yes indeed I had to go to work every day through Covid. Some days driving and other days by bus. Driving avoided the poor reliability of the bus in the early hours. I never use the bus now as it is too crowded and I started taking my partner to her place of work as well before she got long Covid. But I cannot face the bus and I guess it is the same for commuting by train for others. Years ago I used to commute into/through London - I do not know how I put up with it and I avoid those jobs now. A lot of people working from home have seen the light on public transport. Jobs closer to home have become very valuable.

I have said this previously and my thoughts are similar to yours. If the railway wants me back then it has to work for my custom. Telling me I have a duty to travel on the train certainly isn’t going to work. Neither is telling me things will be/are back to how they were pre-pandemic. They were pretty bad then and I have no desire to return to that level of poor service.

I did use the train today and unfortunately absolutely nothing has improved. There was a delay of 25 minutes to my train. A largish station with plenty of staff but no information at all regarding the delay (after departure time it just disappeared from the PIS) or whether the train would even turn up and the next one wasn’t for 2 hours. Also no explanation, apology or any announcements at all on the train.

It really depends what proportion of the working population go back to working at an office etc. How many will return to work and how many will seek employment more local to home (like I did 20 years ago).

@bramling - Sorry I am no good at avoiding two adjoining posts of my own so cannote quote you.
You mention those who do not want to stop working from home. In my workplace I would say there are those who were desparate to get back to work, those who are desparate to "work from home" and some who want a mixture. Personally I would love to have worked from home but that is because I was looking at the grass from the other side of the fence .

 

[WestRiding]

There also seems to be a worry the EV cars are going to be the death of the railway. You won't be able to charge for free, for much longer, and the government will come up with some sort of alternate road tax, to re balance the books. So, not all bad. If any one watched the most recent Guy Martin, did you see how much it cost him in electric charging points to reach Scotland?

 

[irish_rail]

I used to be the railway's greatest cheerleader and would use the train wherever possible. It now comes a distant second compared to driving due to comfort (more specifically 800s), prices, lack of connections and what feels like near constant cancellations/delays/short-forms.

Primarily though, I'm frankly not interesed in long distance travel until someone sorts out this god awful trend for ironing board seats & 10 car 'InterCity' EMUs which routinely get cut down to 5. I wonder how many others feel the same?

Here here

 

[Swanley 59]

You should see some of the driving I've experienced. Slightly different circumstances by another driver and I'd be in a morgue.

Yes, courtesy of LNER cancelling the 7:12 from Morpeth on Monday morning, I was obliged to drive. After the most outrageous undertaking manoeuvre on the A19, I very nearly had to rely upon the services of the lunatic land rover driver's more professional colleagues.

 

[sd0733]

There also seems to be a worry the EV cars are going to be the death of the railway. You won't be able to charge for free, for much longer, and the government will come up with some sort of alternate road tax, to re balance the books. So, not all bad. If any one watched the most recent Guy Martin, did you see how much it cost him in electric charging points to reach Scotland?

Theres also the congestion and parking, no way would there be enough space for everyone to drive into a lot of places.

 

[Darandio]

So, not all bad. If any one watched the most recent Guy Martin, did you see how much it cost him in electric charging points to reach Scotland?

Wasn't one something like £40 for an hour, yet it didn't even charge it to the full amount specified?

 

[WestRiding]

Theres also the congestion and parking, no way would there be enough space for everyone to drive into a lot of places.

yep, free parking for EVs will not continue. Rail will have its day again, shortly.

 

[bramling]

Here here

Agreed. We’ve read on here how people will still keep coming to the railway no matter what, so things like uncomfortable seats or crowded off-peak trains weren’t anything for the industry to be bothered about addressing.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed. We’ve read on here how people will still keep coming to the railway no matter what, so things like uncomfortable seats or crowded off-peak trains weren’t anything for the industry to be bothered about addressing.

Yes. Such things are not good enough. The industry will need to learn to attract passengers again.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Unfortunately I feel that many staff and enthusiasts are so determined that the railway is dying there is a risk of a self fulfilling prophecy. Some of the attitudes of staff I have seen recently is appalling. Putting down tools because of smaller bonuses etc. The way the voluntary severance stuff is being handled doesn't help of course.

Not of positivity wouldn't hurt anyone.

Yes. Such things are not good enough. The industry will need to learn to attract passengers again.

Absolutely, particularly seats. My wife's comment is that the azumas are amazing trains other than the seats, she said give me a mk3 seat on an azuma and she's happy.


I also think peak fares are a thing of the past.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Is it me, or I feel like a lot of posters here are almost celebrating the situation the railway industry is currently in. Just seems unsesecarily malicious. I agree the industry defintley has some big issues, mainly around ticket prices that need sorting out.

However, most people I speak to like travelling by train and would much prefer to take the train, than drive. Its mainly cost putting people off using the train more.

And where has this narrative that the roads are the way forward come from, that's not the narrative I'm getting the impression of, particularly from the younger generation of people.

Obviously a pipe dream but if the government are serious about climate commitments, banning domestic mainland flights would not harm them in any way and would get those passengers onto trains at least. Seems an easy win

Yes it stuns me that the extra (was spare) runway for Gatwick airport is even being considered.

Quite a lot of this "working from home" buzz being touted as the new way of life which for most it won't be.

An easy win for whom? banning internal flights and putting them on slow and extortionate rail services? Yes, I'm sure that's a big win. We have a poor rail infrastructure in the main in the UK so it isn't going to work, certainly not with most of the currently poor new stock that we have.

I do wonder why putting a plane up into the sky against gravity and where safety obviously has to be better (engines cannot just switch off) is so much cheaper per passenger than a train.

The obvious difference is that London commutes are, on average, considerably longer and more expensive than other cities. Therefore WFH (at least partially) is considerably more advantageous to a typical London commuter than it is to a typical commuter into other cities.

This is probably true. The size of London is unsustainable. Further evidence is from tradespersons who have to use a van to carry their tools and materials - I am getting the impression they spend around half their day driving (over a not very large area) and half actually using their trade skills.

I was talking to a plumber who uses a large trolley bag and public transport - he said it saves him a lot of time but is impossible if he needs much in the way of materials only workable for estimating and repairs but then not all of the repairs.

 

[bramling]

Yes. Such things are not good enough. The industry will need to learn to attract passengers again.

Ironically, the privatised railway was doing that rather well in the late 1990s and 2000s. It’s only since the DFT started micromanaging that things went downhill.

 

[yorksrob]

Absolutely, particularly seats. My wife's comment is that the azumas are amazing trains other than the seats, she said give me a mk3 seat on an azuma and she's happy.


I also think peak fares are a thing of the past.

Yes, peak fares and walk on in general !

Ironically, the privatised railway was doing that rather well in the late 1990s and 2000s. It’s only since the DFT started micromanaging that things

As was BR in the late 1980's !

(Yes numbers went south in the early 90's, but it was a recession).

 

[40129]

Interesting thread.

My personal experiences of rail travel post lockdown (as an employee and passenger) areas follows:

Commuting into regional cities seems to be coming back quicker than commuting into London. I took over a peak time train that had arrived into New Street for its contra-peak working and was pleasantly surprised at the number of passengers who alighted. Meanwhile, the trains I've worked into London in the morning peak have still been relatively quiet.

Having recently visited London and Liverpool recently I would say that Liverpool seems like a bustling city whilst London appears to be more of a ghost town.

As for what the railway needs to do to attract passengers, I would suggest the following:

1) Scrap the IETs. I had the misfortune to use two of them last weekend for the first time and am disappointed that the poor reception these trains have received by forum members is fully justified. The seats are woefully uncomfortable and make me thankful that I no longer live in the West Country. I was only on the IET for 25 minutes per journey and my back is still recovering. The only good thing about these trains is the traffic light system for identifying un/reserved seats. Seriously, they are the least comfortable trains I have ever been on, with the exception of the Vale of Rheiddol!

2) Replace the M-F, Saturday, and Sunday schedules with an all week Saturday frequency but with M-F start and finish times (Sunday start times might have to be later to allow for engineering works)

3) Simplify the fares structure so that split ticketing is not necessary and remove operator specific tickets for short journeys, e.g. Wolverhampton / New Street / Coventry, Liverpool - Runcorn , etc

 

[Ianno87]

Keep repeating this is a complete irrelevance for those who cannot or do not want to work from home.

Plenty of people can and do. Why stop them? Jealousy?

I had a great office day today being collaborative. But travelling every day is pointless and a waste of my time. I'd rather have more time with my wife and kids and be there for them.

 

[bramling]

Plenty of people can and do. Why stop them? Jealousy?

I had a great office day today being collaborative. But travelling every day is pointless and a waste of my time. I'd rather have more time with my wife and kids and be there for them.

Fine for those who are fully productive at home. However this clearly doesn’t apply across the board. Likewise many jobs cannot be done from home, yet the WFH crowd bleat on about it being “the future”, or that it’s “too dangerous to go to work”. I’m sure the person painting the outside my house this week would love to know how he can work at home!

 

[johncrossley]

Plenty of people can and do. Why stop them? Jealousy?

For years rail workers have accused people in other industries (so including office workers) of jealousy because of their superior union power and good wages and conditions. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

 

[Robertj21a]

Fine for those who are fully productive at home. However this clearly doesn’t apply across the board. Likewise many jobs cannot be done from home, yet the WFH crowd bleat on about it being “the future”, or that it’s “too dangerous to go to work”. I’m sure the person painting the outside my house this week would love to know how he can work at home!

I didn't know that anybody had ever suggested that professional painters would WFH. Surely, a good proportion of those who can WFH will be those in office/clerical roles?.

 

[baz962]

For years rail workers have accused people in other industries (so including office workers) of jealousy because of their superior union power and good wages and conditions. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

Ha ha ha . What a load of nonsense. I love driving train's. Wouldn't work from home or do another job/career for double the money.

 

[bramling]

I didn't know that anybody had ever suggested that professional painters would WFH. Surely, a good proportion of those who can WFH will be those in office/clerical roles?.

Exactly. So this whole notion that work from home is some great panacea is rubbish. It applies to a select group of people only.

It’s an even smaller group when one cuts out all those whose full productivity *can’t* fully be carried out at home.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Interesting thread.

My personal experiences of rail travel post lockdown (as an employee and passenger) areas follows:

Commuting into regional cities seems to be coming back quicker than commuting into London. I took over a peak time train that had arrived into New Street for its contra-peak working and was pleasantly surprised at the number of passengers who alighted. Meanwhile, the trains I've worked into London in the morning peak have still been relatively quiet.

Having recently visited London and Liverpool recently I would say that Liverpool seems like a bustling city whilst London appears to be more of a ghost town.

As for what the railway needs to do to attract passengers, I would suggest the following:

1) Scrap the IETs. I had the misfortune to use two of them last weekend for the first time and am disappointed that the poor reception these trains have received by is fully justified. The seats are woefully uncomfortable and make me thankful that I no longer live in the West Country. I was only on the IET for 25 minutes per journey and my back is still recovering. The only good thing about these trains is the traffic light system for identifying un/reserved seats. Seriously, they are the least comfortable trains I have ever been on, with the exception of the Vale of Rheiddol!

2) Replace the M-F, Saturday, and Sunday schedules with an all week Saturday frequency but with M-F start and finish times (Sunday start times might have to be later to allow for engineering works)

3) Simplify the fares structure so that split ticketing is not necessary and remove operator specific tickets for short journeys, e.g. Wolverhampton / New Street / Coventry, Liverpool - Runcorn , etc

It'd be cheaper to just refit with better interiors... Ans a better use of resources.

Agree about timetables ans ticketing though!

 

[IanXC]

I'd be very interested to see the data for commuters for routes into London vs. the other major cities. Not sure if is published anywhere in the public domain, a quick search hasn't come up with anything.

I strongly suspect the biggest loss in numbers is around the number of people on the "commuter" TOC going into London. From various friends and acquaintances who commute in different regions there certainly seems to be a much stronger return of demand for some cities e.g. Leeds than seems to be the case in London. Alternatively it might be that the trains seem busier because they were consistently running below the necessary capacity and are now merely busy rather than heavily loaded like used to occur in the past.

I'm not aware of anything broken down below "National Rail" in the DfT's pandemic transport figures.

I also think there will be a very different picture in different operators, I'm fairly certain it will be the ex Network South East area which is doing the worst.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I'm not aware of anything broken down below "National Rail" in the DfT's pandemic transport figures.

I also think there will be a very different picture in different operators, I'm fairly certain it will be the ex Network South East area which is doing the worst.

Were Anglia part of Network South East?

Apparently Greater Anglia are doing the best.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm not aware of anything broken down below "National Rail" in the DfT's pandemic transport figures.

I also think there will be a very different picture in different operators, I'm fairly certain it will be the ex Network South East area which is doing the worst.

Horrible thought. Maybe the SE is affected by another factor. How many jobs have gone in central London because of Brexit ?. Some doom mongers reckoned the financial services sector could be hit hard. But then agan I would assume those sort of jobs might be easy to do from home ?.

 

[IanXC]

Horrible thought. Maybe the SE is affected by another factor. How many jobs have gone in central London because of Brexit ?. Some doom mongers reckoned the financial services sector could be hit hard. But then agan I would assume those sort of jobs might be easy to do from home ?.

I think its probably both of these. Plus the factor mentioned earlier, that if you're doing a longer commute in the first place, the attractiveness of working from home is that much greater than if you have a short commute.

 

[bb21]

Were Anglia part of Network South East?

Apparently Greater Anglia are doing the best.

In what sense are they "doing the best"?

Commuting traffic and season ticket sales are down significantly in the South East. I find it hard to believe Anglia, who have significant commuter flows from Essex and Suffolk into Liverpool Street/Stratford, would be immune.