East Midlands Railway short formed services

[WesternLancer]

Invitations went out about a fortnight ago. It's at Trent Bridge on 9th November.

Thanks

 

[yorksrob]

As an occasional user of the Regional services in both directions through Sheffield I have first hand experience of being rammed into a 2 car 158 when fellow intending passengers were unable to get aboard. I've seen a young lady suffer a panic attack and have to leave an overcrowded train and go for a later TPE service after a time out.

However we users don't have to crew these trains. Those who do record accurate figures of how well the trains are loading. They know very well what it's like and have to live with this almost every working day. EMR's platform staff can see how hard it is to get all aboard and have to placate those who can't, sometimes requiring BTP support. Management must be accutely aware of the shortcomings.

It's not new either. Having worked in a different industry that was in a similar meltdown position it was hell! We worked massive amounts of overtime to cover inadequacies and customers still went ballistic almost every day. In our case it was new IT that didn't work. It took too much time for top management to accept the source of the problem and then a long time to put it right. Staff who could get better and less stressful jobs went elsewhere adding a further twist to the problems.

EMR can't magic up new units in days. What we all, passengers and employees, want to know is if and how all can be resolved in time for the December timetable changes. Nothing we're seeing at present suggests they can restore all the missing trains at full length by then, quite possibly not even before May. Or maybe later!

There's an EMR Stakeholder event in Nottingham next month. It will be interesting to hear honest and open explanations at that time.

It's absolutely true that EMR can't magic up new trains in days. The fundamental error by government and the industry was in not retaining old trains for long enough where necessary.

 

[londonmidland]

The fundamental error by government and the industry was in not retaining old trains for long enough where necessary.

The loss of the HSTs as well as the 153s is really taking its toll. The majority of Intercity services are now formed of 5 car 222s and a couple of 7 cars. 4 cars are quite regular on Sheffield services which is, quite obviously, inadequate.

Even with a reduced service, there still seems to be short forms between Nottingham and Liverpool.

 

[yorksrob]

The loss of the HSTs as well as the 153s is really taking its toll. The majority of Intercity services are now formed of 5 car 222s and a couple of 7 cars. 4 cars are quite regular on Sheffield services which is, quite obviously, inadequate.

Even with a reduced service, there still seems to be short forms between Nottingham and Liverpool.

Quite. They have this wonderful new bi-mode fleet coming in, in a few years. They should have retained the existing rolling stock to meet capacity up until that time, instead of trying to stretch out an inadequate fleet for political expediency.

 

[Class360/1]

Quite. They have this wonderful new bi-mode fleet coming in, in a few years. They should have retained the existing rolling stock to meet capacity up until that time, instead of trying to stretch out an inadequate fleet for political expediency.

But the hsts aren’t prm compliant

 

[DDB]

Invitations went out about a fortnight ago. It's at Trent Bridge on 9th November.

Who are the stakeholders? I assume as a member of the travelling public I can't invite myself? If any of my elected representatives are going I'd like to prime them with questions I would like answering!

 

[LowLevel]

In a way it is lucky that COVID has impacted loadings as the plan for the Intercity services wouldn't have coped otherwise. The theory was that the Connect trains would strip off some of the heaviest peak loadings, the problem of course is that particularly on Friday - Monday plenty of IC trains were already full 7 or 8 car trains with passengers to/from North of Leicester, without even factoring in the likes of Kettering and Wellingborough.

The Regional side hopefully will start to see significant improvements soon - Skegness trains should be back to 2 car for the winter which will free up a lot of units and the 156/9s coming back as fleet standard will help too. Hopefully some more 170s will also start to come online from elsewhere with the 196s and 197s to enter traffic at WMR and Wales Rail.

Some longer term information would be great but it just isn't out there yet - we don't know the fate of the 158 fleet for example though rumours abound about at least some being retained, same with re-formatting the class 222s to reduce first class accommodation, but very little concrete gen about even internally.

 

[yorksrob]

In a way it is lucky that COVID has impacted loadings as the plan for the Intercity services wouldn't have coped otherwise. The theory was that the Connect trains would strip off some of the heaviest peak loadings, the problem of course is that particularly on Friday - Monday plenty of IC trains were already full 7 or 8 car trains with passengers to/from North of Leicester, without even factoring in the likes of Kettering and Wellingborough.

The Regional side hopefully will start to see significant improvements soon - Skegness trains should be back to 2 car for the winter which will free up a lot of units and the 156/9s coming back as fleet standard will help too. Hopefully some more 170s will also start to come online from elsewhere with the 196s and 197s to enter traffic at WMR and Wales Rail.

Some longer term information would be great but it just isn't out there yet - we don't know the fate of the 158 fleet for example though rumours abound about at least some being retained, same with re-formatting the class 222s to reduce first class accommodation, but very little concrete gen about even internally.

Surely they'll be keeping all of the 158 fleet ? Yes a few 170's might replace some of the other sprinters going, but they surely couldn't hope to replace the 158 capacity as well !

 

[Bikeman78]

But the hsts aren’t prm compliant

There are plenty of non compliant trains in Belgium but they have this crazy plan of keeping them going until they have enough new trains to replace them. We really have shot ourselves in the foot in the UK.

 

[paddy1]

3 out of 7 first class cars on a 7 car 222 is disproportionate, as is 1.25 / 1.5 cars on a 4 or 5 car 222, especially with the current overcrowding on MML Intercity due to short trains replacing what used to be 7/8/9/10car 222s formations or 8 car HSTs.

With the government happy to compel first class on GWR Intercity HST's to be reduced to only 1 car prior to them being replaced , and with some Avanti West Coast services now reduced to only coach K as first class on a 9 car Pendolino and J and K on 11 car Pendolinos, then with the overcrowding now occurring on MML Intercity, I am surprised the disproportionate first to standard ratio is allowed to continue and similar conversions not taking place. In the interim, it would seem appropriate to de-classify some of the first class coaches, if not already happening.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Ticket acceptance on NET trams Hucknall to Nottingham due to short forms on the Mansfield/Worksop route today.

 

[WesternLancer]

But the hsts aren’t prm compliant

Stroke of govt pen could have soilved that. Govt chose not to do so. Passengers (or the large number of them who do not require PRM stock) pay the price. Given there were PRM compliant services every other train on the MML (ie the 222s) this could have been an adequate compromise IMHO.

3 out of 7 first class cars on a 7 car 222 is disproportionate, as is 1.25 / 1.5 cars on a 4 or 5 car 222, especially with the current overcrowding on MML Intercity due to short trains replacing what used to be 7/8/9/10car 222s formations or 8 car HSTs.

With the government happy to compel first class on GWR Intercity HST's to be reduced to only 1 car prior to them being replaced , and with some Avanti West Coast services now reduced to only coach K as first class on a 9 car Pendolino and J and K on 11 car Pendolinos, then with the overcrowding now occurring on MML Intercity, I am surprised the disproportionate first to standard ratio is allowed to continue and similar conversions not taking place. In the interim, it would seem appropriate to de-classify some of the first class coaches, if not already happening.

assume it's a legacy of the fleet intro with a number of 9 car 222s.

You can full 1st class - you just need to price it right with Advance (EMT used to manage this and from what I saw on Saturday LNER can do that on a Mk4 set - I've migrated to using the ECML whenever I can instead of MML as the stock is so poor and overcrowded on EMR.

- Incidentally - have EMR managed to refurb the interior of a single train yet? They have had since April 2019 to achieve this (apols if they have done any, I've not seen any on the regional fleet, the MML IC fleet, the ex HT fleet, or the Connect fleet......

They don't even seem to be able to keep the interior of the existing v tired fleet looking clean (they may be managing the covid wipe downs but if the stock doesn't even look clean - and it doesn't - most passengers would not be convinced of the efficacy of the covid hygeine regime. Not that it can be putting people off since crowding levels is clearly a common issue on many routes.

Who are the stakeholders? I assume as a member of the travelling public I can't invite myself? If any of my elected representatives are going I'd like to prime them with questions I would like answering!

I would expect Transport Strategy officers and / or lead councillors for the topic (eg Portfolio Holder for Transport) at your local County or Unitary Council - which is the local transport authority - to have been invited. It may well be worth e-mailing such people and asking if they are going. Quite easy to find contact details for them. If you say which council area you live in I'll try and find a link for you.

 

[paddy1]

It's a shame to see what was one of the best franchises becoming a cinderella.

It's appalling that they seem intent on baking in inadequate capacity into the new fleets.

You can full 1st class - you just need to price it right with Advance (EMT used to manage this and from what I saw on Saturday LNER can do that on a Mk4 set - I've migrated to using the ECML whenever I can instead of MML as the stock is so poor and overcrowded on EMR.

Yes, I used to get some good price 1st advances on EMT. Quiet 'ish' when I travelled off peak in the week on EMT but much busier in EMT 1st at the weekends.

 

[Toffee Apples]

Yes, I used to get some good price 1st advances on EMT. Quiet 'ish' when I travelled off peak in the week on EMT but much busier in EMT 1st at the weekends.

I remember EMT days where I would be despatching a HST on a sunday and first class was the busiest part of the service! Quite often Advanced 1st singles to London were only about £11.

 

[WesternLancer]

I remember EMT days where I would be despatching a HST on a sunday and first class was the busiest part of the service! Quite often Advanced 1st singles to London were only about £11.

yep - I noticed HST 1st class carriages pretty rapidly became fairly lightly loaded after EMR took over (or so it seemed). Get the price right and you can sell the seats, or so it seems to me.

 

[Killingworth]

yep - I noticed HST 1st class carriages pretty rapidly became fairly lightly loaded after EMR took over (or so it seemed). Get the price right and you can sell the seats, or so it seems to me.

Agree, we used first at weekends and would during the week if it wasn't so much dearer than standard. Would be nice to have the opportunity to pay extra to guarantee a seat on the Liverpool - Norwich route!

 

[WesternLancer]

Agree, we used first at weekends and would during the week if it wasn't so much dearer than standard. Would be nice to have the opportunity to pay extra to guarantee a seat on the Liverpool - Norwich route!

Good point - and it may have been that the transfer of the route to TPE / use of TPE stock might have facilitated that I suppose, tho it's all now up in the air to some degree I guess.

 

[yorksrob]

yep - I noticed HST 1st class carriages pretty rapidly became fairly lightly loaded after EMR took over (or so it seemed). Get the price right and you can sell the seats, or so it seems to me.

I agree. In EMT days I was generally paying £25 - £35 for a first class single, whereas with EMR this became £40 -£50.

 

[WesternLancer]

I agree. In EMT days I was generally paying £25 - £35 for a first class single, whereas with EMR this became £40 -£50.

Yes, £40 to £50 that resulted in an empty seat so as ticket not bought so in fact it became £0 to EMR. Makes no business sense....forced people who had the extra money back down to std where they then have to compete for seats with pax who were on tighter budgets (eg students) - end result: crowded std, emptier 1st. Daft IMHO.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, £40 to £50 that resulted in an empty seat so as ticket not bought so in fact it became £0 to EMR. Makes no business sense....forced people who had the extra money back down to std where they then have to compete for seats with pax who were on tighter budgets (eg students) - end result: crowded std, emptier 1st. Daft IMHO.

£50 quid was at the limit of what I was prepared to pay - and frankly were it not for the superior ambiance of the EMT HST, I wouldn't have been prepared to pay that.

 

[Mikey C]

Never mind stock issues, I'm in Lincoln tomorrow, and EMR have cancelled 3 of the last 4 southbound trains due to staff shortages (19:12 to Newark, 19:31 to Peterborough and 20:42 to Leicester) leaving just the 19:45 to Newark which already was a replacement bus service

 

[Killingworth]

At Sheffield it's notable that Northern, TPE and Cross Country are all making train formation data available so we can see what's supposed to be coming on the likes of RTT.

EMR's difficulties must make introducing that a nightmare to consider.

 

[LowLevel]

At Sheffield it's notable that Northern, TPE and Cross Country are all making train formation data available so we can see what's supposed to be coming on the likes of RTT.

EMR's difficulties must make introducing that a nightmare to consider.

I am sure I read somewhere that it is something in progress.

 

[londonmidland]

At Sheffield it's notable that Northern, TPE and Cross Country are all making train formation data available so we can see what's supposed to be coming on the likes of RTT.

Not even on RTT but on their own passenger information screens (PIS) at stations, they’re able to display XC train formations, but they don’t do it for their own services?

Surely they have all this information available?

 

[Killingworth]

1R68 was 2 coach through Sheffield today at 13.49, 6 or 7 minutes late after a long stop at Grantham. Couldn't see how full. TPE 6 coach 185 was 20 minutes behind . Following Northern 4 coach 150 was very well filled, standees in all 4. Situation, sadly, normal.

 

[dk1]

1R68 was 2 coach through Sheffield today at 13.49, 6 or 7 minutes late after a long stop at Grantham. Couldn't see how full. TPE 6 coach 185 was 20 minutes behind . Following Northern 4 coach 150 was very well filled, standees in all 4. Situation, sadly, normal.

1L11 & 1L13 are both F&S today so I would imagine these are the same.

 

[STINT47]

1L11 & 1L13 are both F&S today so I would imagine these are the same.

Hopefully as the goverment starts to level up the north this stop becoming the norm. Finger crossed we will start to see more six to eight car trains in the north like you encounter in and out of London. Sadly it may take some time to get the stock but investment in transport for the regions is at least now a priority.

 

[richardderby]

The majority of Intercity services are now formed of 5 car 222s and a couple of 7 cars. 4 cars are quite regular on Sheffield services which is, quite obviously, inadequate.

I have stopped using EMR on the London routes, generally travel via Tamworth on LNW as their trains are pretty much all 8 cars, its much cheaper (c.50%), electric, and the journey is not much longer (under 2 hours Euston to Derby). having a 4 car 222 turn up for a 2 hour plus journey on EMR is not acceptable, and the fares are too high on EMR too. They must be supressing an awful lot of demand...

 

[louis97]

Not even on RTT but on their own passenger information screens (PIS) at stations, they’re able to display XC train formations, but they don’t do it for their own services?

Surely they have all this information available?

The information on XC services isn't provided by EMR themselves. It comes from a system XC use, this is how the information matches across all stations. For EMR to match this for their own services they would need to manually add the information, or, as is being considered, use the same system as XC use.

 

[43055]

Not even on RTT but on their own passenger information screens (PIS) at stations, they’re able to display XC train formations, but they don’t do it for their own services?

Surely they have all this information available?

It has been done just not much detail as much detail as you can have now with the diagrams at the bottom. For double sets to London it can display 'A-G front - J-M rear' for example for the orientation of the sets. Local services use to have the number of coaches displayed but I haven't seen that recently.