Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

[geoffk]

The arrival via Castleford departs back to Knottingley via Castleford, so the majority of these services use platform 17. There is a Saturday all day diagram (the one which is partly removed come January) and a couple of afternoon services which are booked 4 carriages so use platform 15 instead


Completely agree - it's clear many industries are et for a tough tart to 2022 with staff illness and isolations, so planning on the basis of higher than usual sickness is wise. However, every effort should be maintained to keep capacity as close as possible to the planned December 2021 timetable - 2 carriage trains on a reduced timetable really need to be a last resort. Earlier this year when things started to reopen the Calder Valley route retained 1 train per hour between Leeds and Halifax and the amount of times it was a rammed 2 car 195 was unbelievable, so I have little confidence the freed up units will be redeployed

Surely if the TOCs didn't plan for large amounts of overtime and rdw just to run the timetable, the cuts they are making now would be less severe. The staff establishment should be enough to run the timetable and provide cover for planned holidays and a certain level of absence through sickness (but not pandemics).

 

[backontrack]

To be fair on Knottingley-Goole: there isn't much between Knottingley and Goole except a few villages, four stations with small car parks and level crossings. You might get some end-to-end business, especially of there are problems on the direct route to Hull (because you could change at Goole for Hull) but unless someone builds a P&R site it's never going to see much beyond commuting traffic... and there might be better bus services for that.

Snaith might generate a little traffic.

It might be that the best way to serve those stations is to divert a couple of York-Hull trains via Goole and Knottingley, perhaps?

 

[Killingworth]

Snaith might generate a little traffic.

It might be that the best way to serve those stations is to divert a couple of York-Hull trains via Goole and Knottingley, perhaps?

A couple of years ago, just before Covid, a friend and I walked the area around Snaith and Rawcliffe. The single track serves large villages and passenger numbers reflect thar. Snaith has barely recorded 2000 annual passengers in recent years and Rawcliffe hasn't topped 700.

Chickens and eggs but how many more trains woukd need to stop to make enough difference to justify the provision? This route looks destined for oblivion by stealth. Few users are likely to miss it. Deploying units from busier routes doesn't make commercial sense.

 

[Kite159]

A couple of years ago, just before Covid, a friend and I walked the area around Snaith and Rawcliffe. The single track serves large villages and passenger numbers reflect thar. Snaith has barely recorded 2000 annual passengers in recent years and Rawcliffe hasn't topped 700.

Chickens and eggs but how many more trains woukd need to stop to make enough difference to justify the provision? This route looks destined for oblivion by stealth. Few users are likely to miss it. Deploying units from busier routes doesn't make commercial sense.

If you lived in Snaith or one of the other areas served by the Knottingley - Goole train would you actually bother with the train service knowing that it's one train a day, which does restrict the timings you have. I suspect most residents in those areas when wanting Leeds, will simply drive to either a Park & Ride side or drive to Knottingley itself.

Similar to the limited served stations on the ECML north of Newcastle, probably have got untapped potential but until the rail service improves to be more usable they won't even give it a second glance

(Similar with some rural buses routes which have 2 services a day but give something stupid like 15 minutes at the main destination before the bus departs for the last time of the day, so as much use as a chocolate fireguard)

 

[Starmill]

If you lived in Snaith or one of the other areas served by the Knottingley - Goole train would you actually bother with the train service knowing that it's one train a day, which does restrict the timings you have. I suspect most residents in those areas when wanting Leeds, will simply drive to either a Park & Ride side or drive to Knottingley itself.

Similar to the limited served stations on the ECML north of Newcastle, probably have got untapped potential but until the rail service improves to be more usable they won't even give it a second glance

(Similar with some rural buses routes which have 2 services a day but give something stupid like 15 minutes at the main destination before the bus departs for the last time of the day, so as much use as a chocolate fireguard)

Only Pegswood and Widdrington really have any potential. Acklington and Chathill are really very remote stations. Pegswood is very close to Morpeth. It's easy to see why Widdrington was thus chosen for a (small) improvement in service.

 

[daodao]

But then they must be temporary until staff are available and nothing else.

Time will tell, but there is no "must" about it. Much of the old Regional Railways network (not just Northern) is heavily loss-making and many in power will wish to save money by letting it wilt and die away, a sort of Beeching mark 2 by stealth. The only routes that may have a future are some (but not all) of those shorter lines 10-15 miles in length directly into major cities that carry a reasonable number of passengers, whose survival is desirable to relieve inner city traffic congestion.

 

[Killingworth]

Only Pegswood and Widdrington really have any potential. Acklington and Chathill are really very remote stations. Pegswood is very close to Morpeth. It's easy to see why Widdrington was thus chosen for a (small) improvement in service.

And Pegswood and Widdrington have at least an hourly bus service to Morpeth and Newcastle so rail only wins on speed. Insignificant parking available at either if there were more frequent trains, but one or two in each direction is a token not a real service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only Pegswood and Widdrington really have any potential. Acklington and Chathill are really very remote stations. Pegswood is very close to Morpeth. It's easy to see why Widdrington was thus chosen for a (small) improvement in service.

Chathill is more remote than Dent, and that is saying something. Very much a terminus of convenience which would probably not be greatly missed if it closed.

Acklington - well, in a sensible world of fully integrated transport it could be well used by people from nearby Amble and other locations with a connecting bus service. Or by car. But actually has lower figures than Chathill, possibly because Chathill's usage is almost all enthusiasts who will do the full service?

 

[willgreen]

Chathill is more remote than Dent, and that is saying something. Very much a terminus of convenience which would probably not be greatly missed if it closed.

Not sure about the first line. The second may have more truth though!

 

[Killingworth]

Chathill is more remote than Dent, and that is saying something. Very much a terminus of convenience which would probably not be greatly missed if it closed.

Acklington - well, in a sensible world of fully integrated transport it could be well used by people from nearby Amble and other locations with a connecting bus service. Or by car. But actually has lower figures than Chathill, possibly because Chathill's usage is almost all enthusiasts who will do the full service?

We're digressing from the subject of the thread but Chathill is not as remote as Dent, although there are only a handful of properties within half a mile. If the short North Sunderland branch were restored to what is now known as Seahouses there's a large leisure market for a terminus there.

Empty trains on lengthy routes that use scarce resources are bound to be vulnerable, especially where alternative bus services exist.

Even in 2020/21 Edale clocked up over 45,000 passengers. It has no bus service. It's hoped there'll be an hourly stopping all stations train from December 2022 but it's not far from that now. However a cut of one return working from Piccadilly to Sheffield means there'll be a gap of three and a half hours after the westbound 12.14 from Sheffield before the 15.46 towards Manchester. The same gap will exist at Dore and Hathersage although both have alternative bus services into Sheffield, but not to Manchester.

Every one of the forrhcoming cuts will cause some inconvenience but balancing them all with the need to get best use of expected scarce human resources at short notice must be a nightmare.

 

[backontrack]

We're digressing from the subject of the thread but Chathill is not as remote as Dent, although there are only a handful of properties within half a mile. If the short North Sunderland branch were restored to what is now known as Seahouses there's a large leisure market for a terminus there.

Empty trains on lengthy routes that use scarce resources are bound to be vulnerable, especially where alternative bus services exist.

Even in 2020/21 Edale clocked up over 45,000 passengers. It has no bus service. It's hoped there'll be an hourly stopping all stations train from December 2022 but it's not far from that now. However a cut of one return working from Piccadilly to Sheffield means there'll be a gap of three and a half hours after the westbound 12.14 from Sheffield before the 15.46 towards Manchester. The same gap will exist at Dore and Hathersage although both have alternative bus services into Sheffield, but not to Manchester.

Every one of the forrhcoming cuts will cause some inconvenience but balancing them all with the need to get best use of expected scarce human resources at short notice must be a nightmare.

For what it's worth, Northern has several stations on the list of the 100 least-used this year. They are:

Stanlow & Thornton, Ince & Elton
Teesside Airport
Kirton Lindsey, Brigg
Denton, Reddish South
Rawcliffe, Whitley Bridge, Hensall, Snaith
Arram
Wressle
Clifton
Ardwick
Acklington
New Clee, Barrow Haven
Hoscar
Nethertown

 

[YorksLad12]

Chickens and eggs but how many more trains woukd need to stop to make enough difference to justify the provision? This route looks destined for oblivion by stealth. Few users are likely to miss it. Deploying units from busier routes doesn't make commercial sense.

One every two hours? Or an hourly Goole-Knottingley shuttle (as I suggested above). Worth reminding people that the *line* will stay open, even if the passengers service is pulled.

If you lived in Snaith or one of the other areas served by the Knottingley - Goole train would you actually bother with the train service knowing that it's one train a day, which does restrict the timings you have. I suspect most residents in those areas when wanting Leeds, will simply drive to either a Park & Ride side or drive to Knottingley itself.

Knottingley doesn't have a huge car park either... it's the first station in West Yorkshire from that side but doesn't seem to have become the eastern equivalent of Steeton &/and Silsden.

We're digressing from the subject of the thread

Indeed, you'll all be joining me on the naughty step!

Every one of the forrhcoming cuts will cause some inconvenience but balancing them all with the need to get best use of expected scarce human resources at short notice must be a nightmare.

Stakeholders (politicians) were informed just before Christmas, so I expect that there won't be closures-by-stealth - a fuss will be made if the closures go on longer than is reasonable (say when Covid infection levels drop throughout the country).

 

[geoffk]

Chathill is more remote than Dent, and that is saying something. Very much a terminus of convenience which would probably not be greatly missed if it closed.

Acklington - well, in a sensible world of fully integrated transport it could be well used by people from nearby Amble and other locations with a connecting bus service. Or by car. But actually has lower figures than Chathill, possibly because Chathill's usage is almost all enthusiasts who will do the full service?

In an alternative world, the terminus of this local service would have been Alnwick, with the peak Chathill calls picked up by TPE or XC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In an alternative world, the terminus of this local service would have been Alnwick, with the peak Chathill calls picked up by TPE or XC.

To be honest Chathill could just be closed, it does not really serve any useful purpose. It is a terminus of convenience for the shuttle only, having previously been a junction station not entirely unlike Dyfi but with a few railway cottages. A bit like Bedwyn but smaller.

As for Chathill vs Dent, there appear to be more population within reach of Dent, and of course there is the hillwalker demand.

There is really not a lot more point in Chathill than there is in Berney Arms. Actually, Berney Arms is probably more useful, as walkers use it.

 

[Llandudno]

For what it's worth, Northern has several stations on the list of the 100 least-used this year. They are:

Stanlow & Thornton, Ince & Elton
Teesside Airport
Kirton Lindsey, Brigg
Denton, Reddish South
Rawcliffe, Whitley Bridge, Hensall, Snaith
Arram
Wressle
Clifton
Ardwick
Acklington
New Clee, Barrow Haven
Hoscar
Nethertown

How many stations on that list have a usable service?

Hoscar and Nethertown maybe..?

 

[Ex-controller]

Not sure if this would be the right place, but ScotRail have also announced service cuts between Jan 4th and Jan 28th. Mainly these are withdrawals of peak additional working plus express services where they operate, to/from Glasgow termini.

 

[Killingworth]

In an alternative world, the terminus of this local service would have been Alnwick, with the peak Chathill calls picked up by TPE or XC.

Chathill is within 4 mikes of Seahouses which should provide custom fbut doesn't because the times of the currently stopping trains are not aimed at the potential incoming leisure market. Population of the village is less than 2000 but massively more in static caravan sites and other holiday accommodation. It might work with a connecting minibus shuttle to Seahouses and Bamburgh at Holiday periods.

 

[Starmill]

Chathill is within 4 mikes of Seahouses which should provide custom fbut doesn't because the times of the currently stopping trains are not aimed at the potential incoming leisure market. Population of the village is less than 2000 but massively more in static caravan sites and other holiday accommodation. It might work with a connecting minibus shuttle to Seahouses and Bamburgh at Holiday periods.

This is flogging a dead horse. Nobody is going to use an infrequent or inconvenient service, and it would be a waste of line capacity trying to develop this market.

If Alnmouth to Alnwick had remained open, serving Alnwick town centre with EMUs would have been a sensible way to provide a local service. Alas, it didn't remain open and there's no chance now of restoring a service there.

 

[Glenn1969]

This is flogging a dead horse. Nobody is going to use an infrequent or inconvenient service, and it would be a waste of line capacity trying to develop this market.

If Alnmouth to Alnwick had remained open, serving Alnwick town centre with EMUs would have been a sensible way to provide a local service. Alas, it didn't remain open and there's no chance now of restoring a service there.

Possibly give local stations a 2 hourly or hourly Newcastle- Berwick services and speed up long distance services by not having them stop at Morpeth and Alnmouth? I accept we are getting speculative though

 

[stew]

Have Northern announced details of these changes yet?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Have Northern announced details of these changes yet?

Nothing showing on their website yet.

 

[stew]

I couldn’t see any changes to journey planners

 

[william]

If you lived in Snaith or one of the other areas served by the Knottingley - Goole train would you actually bother with the train service knowing that it's one train a day, which does restrict the timings you have. I suspect most residents in those areas when wanting Leeds, will simply drive to either a Park & Ride side or drive to Knottingley itself.

Similar to the limited served stations on the ECML north of Newcastle, probably have got untapped potential but until the rail service improves to be more usable they won't even give it a second glance

(Similar with some rural buses routes which have 2 services a day but give something stupid like 15 minutes at the main destination before the bus departs for the last time of the day, so as much use as a chocolate fireguard)

Yes, the train was often quite full and standing when it came into Knottingley. Leeds has a big commuter market. Or had.

 

[Killingworth]

This is flogging a dead horse. Nobody is going to use an infrequent or inconvenient service, and it would be a waste of line capacity trying to develop this market.

If Alnmouth to Alnwick had remained open, serving Alnwick town centre with EMUs would have been a sensible way to provide a local service. Alas, it didn't remain open and there's no chance now of restoring a service there.

Sadly it is, but all these all but unused infrequent services are heading only one way with cancellations of those few trains. Having been out on the roads this last two days it's very clear that the vast majority of those journeys woukd not be made if they had to rely on public transport.

 

[Greybeard33]

Acklington - well, in a sensible world of fully integrated transport it could be well used by people from nearby Amble and other locations with a connecting bus service. Or by car. But actually has lower figures than Chathill, possibly because Chathill's usage is almost all enthusiasts who will do the full service?

I have relatives in Amble. They say no-one from the town uses Acklington. They railhead to Alnmouth for the more frequent service.

 

[Lytham Local]

Usually the Windermere branch is top of the list to get services cancelled along with the South Fylde branch. I wonder if someone in Northern HQ forgot about it?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Usually the Windermere branch is top of the list to get services cancelled along with the South Fylde branch. I wonder if someone in Northern HQ forgot about it?

According to post no 4 the South Fylde branch will be reduced by a third.

 

[stew]

I’ve noticed a couple of changes on journey planner for the Blackpool South to Preston line.

On Tuesday 4th Jan:
1113 removed
1713 removed

 

[scrapy]

The Morecambe branch is usually first for the chop having no train crew depot nearby. Seems unusually to be untouched this time.

 

[YorksLad12]

Still no announcement to the public? Is it supposed to be a New Year's surprise?