1992 stock Refurbishment?

[Goldfish62]

Literally sounds like someone’s cut the audio from an S Stock departing and smushed it onto this video!

Although there's still a bit of 1992 Stock lurking in there.

 

[SprattyHeath]

Sounds incredibly similar to the traction motors used on the S Stock, I presume they were provided by Bombardier?

 

[richardcoughla]

Is there any news on when the first upgraded unit will enter service?

 

[Dstock7080]

Is there any news on when the first upgraded unit will enter service?

Possibly September.
6-8 weeks of testing train 2, which has AC motors, new DTS, new cctv, LED lighting.

 

[100andthirty]

Tbf, the refurb 455 motors don't sound that different from the older set. Maybe the new ones will be similar? Then again, massive differences in some of the 465 remotorings...

I guess also after the Jubilee line cracking incidents, LU may be a bit more wary of the stress caused by acceleration/deceleration. Lower top speeds would help reduce the strain?

There will be a sound from the new ac traction package, but the noise from the motor/gearbox will be dominated by gearbox noise and the gearbox is being retained.

The 100 km/h running was thought to be a contributor to the Chancery Lane derailment but was later disproved.

Comparison of forces though the couplings on 1996 tube stock with those on 1992 tube stock is not appropriate.1995 tube stock has 4 motor cars and 3 trailer cars so there are significant pull and push loads though the couplers. 1992 tube stock loads are much smaller because every car is motored and does its fair share of the work. Anyway the root causes of the 1996 tube stock issue were a combination of failure to account for the pull /push loads, other poor design and some poor assembly.

 

[Recessio]

There will be a sound from the new ac traction package, but the noise from the motor/gearbox will be dominated by gearbox noise and the gearbox is being retained.

The 100 km/h running was thought to be a contributor to the Chancery Lane derailment but was later disproved.

Comparison of forces though the couplings on 1996 tube stock with those on 1992 tube stock is not appropriate.1995 tube stock has 4 motor cars and 3 trailer cars so there are significant pull and push loads though the couplers. 1992 tube stock loads are much smaller because every car is motored and does its fair share of the work. Anyway the root causes of the 1996 tube stock issue were a combination of failure to account for the pull /push loads, other poor design and some poor assembly.

Wasn't aware of the differences between 92 and 95/96 motoring, thank you, very informative post!

Poor assembly on the 96 doesn't surprise me, the entire stock seems to have been done on-the-cheap compared to the 95. The outdated traction equipment for starters.

 

[100andthirty]

Wasn't aware of the differences between 92 and 95/96 motoring, thank you, very informative post!

Poor assembly on the 96 doesn't surprise me, the entire stock seems to have been done on-the-cheap compared to the 95. The outdated traction equipment for starters.

The 1996 tube stock was ordered before 1995 tube stock and before the latter's traction equipment became available. 1995 tube stock traction was troublesome in the early days but the root cause was identified and fixed.

Some 1995 tube stock and 1996 tube stock were built concurrently and in the area concerned with cracks, to the same design So there's probably a risk to the former.

There are two factors that make any issues on 1995 tube stock less apparent. 1) as a 6 car train with 4 motor cars the pull/push loads are lower, and 2) unless service affecting, issues are often unreported in public as the trains are not owned by TfL and cost of rectification is covered under the contract with Alstom.

 

[Recessio]

The 1996 tube stock was ordered before 1995 tube stock and before the latter's traction equipment became available. 1995 tube stock traction was troublesome in the early days but the root cause was identified and fixed.

Some 1995 tube stock and 1996 tube stock were built concurrently and in the area concerned with cracks, to the same design So there's probably a risk to the former.

There are two factors that make any issues on 1995 tube stock less apparent. 1) as a 6 car train with 4 motor cars the pull/push loads are lower, and 2) unless service affecting, issues are often unreported in public as the trains are not owned by TfL and cost of rectification is covered under the contract with Alstom.

Ah, that makes sense, thank you.

Any insights in the 92 stock? Always thought it was a bit odd they intended to replace it as part of Deep Tube Upgrade when it's not that old... Is it just unavailability of proprietary parts nowadays, same as lot of similar era BR models?

 

[100andthirty]

1992 tube stock went into service in 1993. So next year is its 30th birthday. The plan was always to replace the train around 2033 or so, taking the opportunity to carry out a further service upgrade with new signalling. With the current troubles TfL is managing, this plan looks like pie in the sky, but if a week is a long time in politics, 11 years is aeons!

As trains age, there are lots of things that can be replaced, overhauled, or otherwise repaired. If parts are unobtainable then some other replacement might be designed and procured. The use of the trains might also change. A whole host of these are being done in the Central Line Improvement Project - new traction(obsolescence/performance) traction motors (compatibility with the traction and resolve unreliability), CCTV/PIS/wheelchair spaces (conformance with legislation), LED lights (to release auxiliary power for other systems) and new train control and monitoring (obsolescence/reliability). They've previously had new bogie frames to resolve cracking issues and the findings of the Chancery Lane derailment, and there has been work on vehicle ends to resolve a certain flimsiness. What's left? The biggest things not easily dealt with are the carbody and long term fatigue issues - aluminium is harder to repair than steel - and the wiring. Rewiring a modern tube car is a very major undertaking, and no one knows how long it will last. 1992 tube stock was the first LU fleet with modern wiring with thin insulation and excellent performance in fires. Its long term durability has het to be proved.

With the work currently being carried out I'm sure that the trains could soldier on beyond 2033 for a few years, but, in my view, they are much harder to "keep going" than the Bakerloo trains.

 

[philthetube]

With the work currently being carried out I'm sure that the trains could soldier on beyond 2033 for a few years, but, in my view, they are much harder to "keep going" than the Bakerloo trains.

Do agree and I suspect that this will be the case with all modern stocks.

 

[D365]

Motors themselves don’t sound vastly different, whether they’re DC or AC. It’s the three-phase inverter electronics which provide the sound; in recent years, this sound has become quieter…

 

[bramling]

Do agree and I suspect that this will be the case with all modern stocks.

I suspect the 95 & 96 stocks would be able to keep going fairly readily, these are much more similar to the current generation of trains than the 92 stock, and perhaps most importantly managed to avoid many of the early-1990s pitfalls - the Northern Line trains especially. The Jubilee fleet is starting to run into issues, though part of this may well be down to maintenance regimes, the Northern fleet always gives the impression of being better maintained, as one might expect when maintained by the owner.

 

[MCR247]

Interesting, from a passenger perspective the 1996 stock seems to always be a better condition to me (more etching on side panels and doors, window seals looking worn/coming up etc)

 

[Recessio]

Interesting, from a passenger perspective the 1996 stock seems to always be a better condition to me (more etching on side panels and doors, window seals looking worn/coming up etc)

They've all been refurbished within the last few years, whereas the Northern 95 were last refurbished ages ago so will look tattier.

 

[Jonah Kemp]

Will the Central or Bakerloo trains go first? It's hard to tell

 

[Lewlew]

Will the Central or Bakerloo trains go first? It's hard to tell

Bakerloo

 

[Jonah Kemp]

Bakerloo

Bakerloo trains won't go till the 30s/40s

So Piccadilly line trains will go in 2026, Bakerloo in 2033, Central and Waterloo and City late 30s is that right

 

[bramling]

They've all been refurbished within the last few years, whereas the Northern 95 were last refurbished ages ago so will look tattier.

Yes the Jubilee fleet is more recently refurbished so should be slightly better from a presentation point of view. But the Northern fleet is and always has been quite conspicuously better maintained, and without checking I’d suspect the reliability stats to bear this out. In fairness, the Jubilee fleet has tended to be sweated slightly harder, and outstable a greater proportion of the fleet total each night.

Bakerloo trains won't go till the 30s/40s

So Piccadilly line trains will go in 2026, Bakerloo in 2033, Central and Waterloo and City late 30s is that right

No one really knows, as at various times over the years the pendulum has swung in different directions on this.

TFL’s finances being shot only adds fuel to this, as it could end up being the case that the Bakerloo really does go into managed decline.

But on balance I tend to agree with the view that in practice the Bakerloo fleet will be replaced first, perhaps with excess trains off the Piccadilly. At some point 72 stock is simply going to become too much of a liability to keep going indefinitely, whilst meanwhile the Central fleet is getting investment now that should address some (but only some) of its issues.

With the political situation being as volatile as it is, I wouldn’t like to lay too much money on any bet though.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The 92 stock along with the 96 are probably my favourite fleets on the the system now. I will miss the the existing motor sounds from the 92 when they are all done one.and and I'm glad that from a technical point of view they're getting investment to rectify the issues that people see with them, but as purely a passenger, the 92 is pretty close to perfection for me in terms of tube stock of its era

 

[richardcoughla]

The 92 stock along with the 96 are probably my favourite fleets on the the system now. I will miss the the existing motor sounds from the 92 when they are all done one.and and I'm glad that from a technical point of view they're getting investment to rectify the issues that people see with them, but as purely a passenger, the 92 is pretty close to perfection for me in terms of tube stock of its era

It's strange that some people see the 92 and 96 stock as "vintage" given the fact that the 72 stock is still in service on the Bakerloo

 

[Blindtraveler]

I don't know where I said that I thought it was vintage, I just said that I really liked it.

 

[Mikey C]

The 92 stock along with the 96 are probably my favourite fleets on the the system now. I will miss the the existing motor sounds from the 92 when they are all done one.and and I'm glad that from a technical point of view they're getting investment to rectify the issues that people see with them, but as purely a passenger, the 92 is pretty close to perfection for me in terms of tube stock of its era

To me the 92 stock are
a) uncomfortable, due to the low and flat seating
b) like a greenhouse when in the open

 

[Blindtraveler]

I wonder just how much of a similar greenhouse issue you would have if they for example transferred the 95 or 96 stock to the Central Line and it's long outside running

 

[Dstock7080]

I wonder just how much of a similar greenhouse issue you would have if they for example transferred the 95 or 96 stock to the Central Line and it's long outside running

To me the 92 stock are
b) like a greenhouse when in the open

The reduced window aperture, because of the new CIS displays and eventual regenerative braking should reduce the overall internal heat.

 

[Lewlew]

The reduced window aperture, because of the new CIS displays and eventual regenerative braking should reduce the overall internal heat.

92s already have regen braking

 

[Mikey C]

I wonder just how much of a similar greenhouse issue you would have if they for example transferred the 95 or 96 stock to the Central Line and it's long outside running

They wouldn't be as bad. They have smaller windows - the curve of the 92 windows means that you are the glass is almost above your head as it meets the roof - and better ventilation too

 

[Dstock7080]

new info in update to Staff:
Almost every part of the train gets stripped down and the works completed:
- Installation of new treadplates which include a yellow strip to improve accessibility
- Fitting of new carriage lino which aides visually impaired people in finding the doorways

It is estimated that each train will take 50 days to complete with five trains in work at any one time.
The CLIP team is also supporting the Waterloo and City train intervention with phase one due to complete June 2022.”

 

[c2c]

new info in update to Staff:
Almost every part of the train gets stripped down and the works completed:
- Installation of new treadplates which include a yellow strip to improve accessibility
- Fitting of new carriage lino which aides visually impaired people in finding the doorways

It is estimated that each train will take 50 days to complete with five trains in work at any one time.
The CLIP team is also supporting the Waterloo and City train intervention with phase one due to complete June 2022.”

Will the Waterloo & City line train intervention involve the same upgrades?

 

[Dstock7080]

Will the Waterloo & City line train intervention involve the same upgrades?

Similar but not fully the same:

1992 stock Refurbishment?

I was travelling past Derby a few days ago and saw a 1992 stock car in one of the sheds at (I assume) Bombardier. It reminded me that they were supposed to be receiving modifications but I haven’t heard much of that programme. Is there any news on what’s happening with the refurbishment? Thanks :)

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[c2c]

Similar but not fully the same:

1992 stock Refurbishment?

I was travelling past Derby a few days ago and saw a 1992 stock car in one of the sheds at (I assume) Bombardier. It reminded me that they were supposed to be receiving modifications but I haven’t heard much of that programme. Is there any news on what’s happening with the refurbishment? Thanks :)

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks!