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When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

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Snow1964

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Johnson is a survivor and there is no obvious successor, he stands a very good chance of being PM till the next election.

There is no comparison to May's situation where there was no support for her policy position and she had also effectively lost a general election

Margaret Thatcher was not obvious successor to Edward Heath
John Major wasn’t obvious successor to Margaret Thatcher

If they are going to change leader (and Boris is not one to walk away even though ministerial code has been broken), then better to do it in 2022 than approaching a General Election
 
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The Ham

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Rubbish and far too simplistic, like the nauseating fool you have quoted. A lot of Tory MPs on the "payroll" will have voted against Boris.

The whips need to identify the key traitors in the government and purge them in the same way as Mr R Stewart was treated in late 2019.

Whether or not the Tories do eventually get rid of Bojo, at the next GE the English electorate will do everything to try to ensure that the Labour party can't rule the UK in league with the SNP, who [like Sinn Fein] are enemies of the state. That is what did for Red Ed in 2015.

Assuming that some with government jobs did view against Boris without resigning the pool of backbenchers who did vote for Boris will be quite small so (given it's a secret vote) there's a fairly high chance you could inadvertently promote someone who voted against to replace someone who voted against.
 

nlogax

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Speaking of Gove, his fake English accent is utterly loathesome.
Gove might be dire but he's spoken this way for as long as anyone can remember. I don't doubt the accent.

The whips need to identify the key traitors in the government and purge them in the same way as Mr R Stewart was treated in late 2019.
Why do you think they're 'traitors'? Genuinely curious.

Whether or not the Tories do eventually get rid of Bojo, at the next GE the English electorate will do everything to try to ensure that the Labour party can't rule the UK in league with the SNP, who [like Sinn Fein] are enemies of the state. That is what did for Red Ed in 2015.

And how is the 'English electorate' going to make that happen? Is there some sort of master plan you're not telling us about?
 

Falcon1200

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All Scottish Tory MPs voted 'no confidence' by their own admission.

No, 4 out of 6 voted against Boris, 2 for him.

From what I heard on STV news earlier, Douglas Ross has changed his mind (again) due to significant local sentiment.

No matter what Douglas Ross did, he would have been criticised, and changing his mind again did IMHO take some balls, knowing the flak he would receive. No doubt Saint Nicola will be on his case today.....

It shows that the majority of the Conservative party is nothing more than a bunch of brown nosers.

But it also shows that a huge number of Conservative MPs are not !

By any normal measure Boris is indeed mortally wounded, but we all know his capacity for survival - the 'greased piglet' ?
 

Typhoon

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Assuming that some with government jobs did view against Boris without resigning the pool of backbenchers who did vote for Boris will be quite small so (given it's a secret vote) there's a fairly high chance you could inadvertently promote someone who voted against to replace someone who voted against.
He may have a problem filling some of the lower (unpaid) positions with anyone approaching competent. It has been widely rumoured (including on this thread) that Johnson offered promotion for support. He will have to see (at least) some of these offers through - which means booting out some of the current Ministers. No-one in their right mind would accept anything more than minor demotion. He will probably also want to refresh the government to try to give the impression that he is in control and is moving on. As you point out the backbench pool of 'Confidence' MPs is quite small; many won't want minor government jobs - because it would interfere with their extra-parliamentary work (eg the Member for Torridge and the Virgin Islands, the GB News Two), they already have a more important parliamentary role (Committee chair), Johnson has sacked them once (eg Robert Buckland, Sir Gavin), they want an easy life prior to retirement (eg Duncan-Smith). His problem might not be promoting the disloyal but finding anyone, especially as he is clearly on borrowed time.

Interestingly, the MP who was on BBC South East Today last night encouraging a united stand, getting behind Big Dog, was Natalie Elphicke. There are quite a few south east MPs who are more capable of putting an argument across, who come across as being more sincere than her; either they were unavailable or the BBC took the easy way out and approached a Rent-a-mouth.
 

DynamicSpirit

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No matter what Douglas Ross did, he would have been criticised, and changing his mind again did IMHO take some balls, knowing the flak he would receive. No doubt Saint Nicola will be on his case today.....

Agreed. To my mind, Douglas Ross's position has been perfectly consistent. He went on record very early on as saying Boris should resign because of Partygate. He temporarily withdrew his no confidence letter when the Ukraine suddenly crisis blew up, on the basis that, although he didn't want Boris as PM, the middle of a crisis wasn't the right time to hold a no-confidence vote. That seems reasonable to me - it's perhaps easy to forget now, but back in February, Ukraine was a huge crisis dominating everything. He clearly still in principle wants Boris to go, but also still thinks that the vote shouldn't have been held now. But given that other MPs forced the no-confidence vote anyway, outside his control, he's hardly going to not vote and express his opinion in it when the vote is going to happen anyway.

But of course he's a Tory MP, and it seems that in the minds of some people that's sufficient justification to gratuitously look for the worst possible interpretation of everything he does - even if what he's doing is perfectly reasonable and consistent :(
 

jfollows

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Well, quite. Normal measures are out of the window for this PM. No sense of shame, no self-awareness, no moral leadership and precisely zero ****s given.
Precisely. We all know he's done for, the media knows it, everyone knows it, but Boris thinks he's different to normal people, so he will crash on, to the detriment of the country and to the Conservative Party (I was going to say "his party" but it isn't any more). He'll reshuffle to "impose his authority" and to fulfil promises he made to people yesterday, but the people reshuffled won't move - they're sitting quite happy thank you in a job they enjoy and they're not going to move somewhere else for just two to three months when they'll be sacked anyway, so they'll refuse to move and he'll have to sack them. He'll try and get legislation through but be blocked by his own party - better chance now that he won't be able to renege on the treaty with the EU over Northern Ireland because it's a bonkers idea anyway.
We can argue the figures but clearly anything up to 75% of the back-bench Conservative MPs want him gone, know that it's only a matter of time, see no benefit in doing what he "tells" them to do.
But it'll be messy until someone properly removes him.

William Hague: (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-should-look-for-an-honourable-exit-7fkgkl2rq)
Boris Johnson should look for an honourable exit
Last night’s revolt makes the PM’s position unsustainable — he must spare his party and the country further agonies​
William Hague

Monday June 06 2022, 10.00pm, The Times

There are two types of rebellions against party leaderships. One is the work of an organised faction or rival candidate for leader, launching a bid to dislodge the incumbent at a time of their choosing. When Michael Heseltine moved against Margaret Thatcher in 1990 it was a rebellion of this kind, as was the attempt by hardline Brexiteers to dislodge Theresa May in 2018.

The other type is more disparate, less organised but more spontaneous: a wider loss of faith that eventually brings on a crisis, but at a time no single individual or grouping chose. The only parallel in recent Conservative Party history is the toppling of Iain Duncan Smith in 2003.

The calling of a confidence vote in Boris Johnson obviously falls intothe latter category. Any rival candidate would not have chosen now to bring it on, since there is every reason to expect that the prime minister would be in a weaker position in the foreseeable future. There is no single policy that has turned much of his party against him, as the poll tax did in the case of Thatcher or a softer Brexit under May.

Instead, the most striking aspect of this revolt has been the varied, almost random, nature of the MPs involved: right, left, centre, keen Brexiteers, moderate One Nation types, hardened old-timers and even some ambitious young thrusters.

It is clear that a fair number of MPs on the ministerial “payroll” joined this rebellion in the privacy of the polling booth. Their reasons for doing so will have matched the stated concerns of those who went public: a seemingly irreparable loss of trust in Johnson among the wider electorate and despair at the lack of grip on the future direction of policy. When a respected MP such as Jesse Norman writes a letter attacking “a culture of casual law-breaking at No 10”, saying “current policy priorities are deeply questionable” and that “the government seems to lack a sense of mission”, it is clear that the disaffection within the party is deep and anguished.

Speaking to a selection of Tory MPs in recent days, I have detected none of the excitement and ferment that accompanies a planned and organised attempt at a coup. Instead, there has been anguish about what to do, a sense of tragedy about a gifted leader displaying such grievous flaws, a deep worry about how their party can coalesce after such a loss of confidence, a concern to do the right thing for party and country. Those planning to vote against Boris Johnson were conscious that he had a huge democratic mandate from the last general election and is a unique personality and leader, yet they had all come quietly, privately and separately to the conclusion that he nevertheless had to go.

This uncoordinated and tormented reaching of dozens of decisions, fortified by the forthright views of many of their constituents after the Sue Gray report, has now resulted in more than 40 per cent of Tory MPs voting that they have no confidence in the party leadership.

The nature of their revolt has an important bearing on what happens next. They are not a faction that has been seen off, or an alternative policy direction that has been defeated. They represent instead a widespread feeling, a collapse of faith, that almost certainly cannot be repaired or reversed. For Johnson, continuing to lead the party after such a revolt will prove to be unsustainable.

Any leader who wins a vote on their leadership has that moment of relief that they have technically survived and the instant conviction that they have lived to fight another day. A win is a win, a small margin in a hard fight is surely enough. That is true of being elected an MP, or becoming party leader for the first time, with all the opportunities ahead to unite disappointed voters or defeated candidates around you. But it does not hold for an incumbent leader.

While I never faced a vote of no confidence in my four years as opposition leader, I would have regarded my position as completely untenable if more than a third of my MPs had ever voted against me. John Major was entirely ready to resign in 1995 if he had not won the support of a very large majority of the party. If, with all the power of the party leadership, all the years of acquaintance with MPs, all the knowledge they have of your abilities and plans, you still cannot crush a vote of no confidence by a commanding margin, then not only is the writing on the wall but it is chiselled in stone and will not wash away.

The nature of this particular revolt makes it qualitatively as well as quantitatively devastating. A fairly narrow victory for Boris Johnson is not the defeat of a rival faction, or the squashing of an alternative candidate, but rather the fending-off of a gathering feeling of hopelessness. It is less likely to prove a turning point than a way marker on an exhausting road to further crises of confidence. That is the worst possible result from the Conservative Party’s point of view. Logically, they should either reconcile themselves to Johnson and get behind him, or decisively eject him and move on to a new leader. It does not seem they have done either.

A leader has to be able to draw on the great majority of talent in their party, to inspire MPs, members, supporters and voters to fresh efforts to win more election victories in the future. A prime minister has to feel sufficiently secure with his or her own MPs to insist on difficult policy decisions and not fear at any moment a resignation by ministers or a new declaration of opposition from MPs that makes their job impossible. With massive economic and security challenges intensifying, the job cannot be done from a position of weakness, with a sullen and disaffected party.

While Johnson has survived the night, the damage done to his premiership is severe. Words have been said that cannot be retracted, reports published that cannot be erased, and votes have been cast that show a greater level of rejection than any Tory leader has ever endured and survived. Deep inside, he should recognise that, and turn his mind to getting out in a way that spares party and country such agonies and uncertainties.

No individual in politics matters more than the health of our democracy. That health depends on voters having faith in the integrity of leaders even if they disagree with them, respect for how government is conducted, and a competitive choice at a future election. The votes just cast show that a very large part of the Conservative Party cannot see Johnson providing that.
 

Gloster

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There are quite a few south east MPs who are more capable of putting an argument across, who come across as being more sincere than her; either they were unavailable or the BBC took the easy way out and approached a Rent-a-mouth.

Or they were wiser than her and were keeping their heads down until it was clear which way the wind was blowing.

I may be old-fashioned (now, saying that is a sign of getting old), but my feeling is that an MP’s loyalty should be to his or her constituents and the country, or even to the party who they think will serve those best, but not to one individual. I suspect that there will be rolling in the aisles after that statement.
 

cjmillsnun

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Rubbish and far too simplistic, like the nauseating fool you have quoted. A lot of Tory MPs on the "payroll" will have voted against Boris.

The whips need to identify the key traitors in the government and purge them in the same way as Mr R Stewart was treated in late 2019.

Whether or not the Tories do eventually get rid of Bojo, at the next GE the English electorate will do everything to try to ensure that the Labour party can't rule the UK in league with the SNP, who [like Sinn Fein] are enemies of the state. That is what did for Red Ed in 2015.
Good god take a look at yourself. Using words like traitors and enemies of the state. We’re in a democracy. If these people are democratically elected they are no such thing.
 

Lost property

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Only Boris, and his cohort of sycophants, would claim last night vindicated him. It's probably a very sensible idea the vote is confidential because, treachery and self preservation being intrinsic to those with aspirations, it would be revealing as to who voted against him.

As it is, we're now faced with a process of attrition until the next GE..which is a shame really, because in the interim it would have been a delight to watch his ignominious and publicly humiliating eviction from No10.

That said, as it being reported elsewhere, apart from the Excess / Mail of course, last nights result has opened the doors for every opposition party to benefit
 

nw1

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Caught a bit of Radio 4 last night in which a couple of Tory MPs were discussing the result.

The first one, who might have been Raab (it's difficult to say, a lot of these new-generation right-wing MPs all sound the same - the same sort of smarmy, supercilious way of speaking) was defending the result as a great night for Boris blah blah blah.

The second one, the MP for Amber Valley, Nigel Turner-Coates I think was his name, said he voted for the no-confidence motion but said something along the lines of "Johnson has won, it's time to move on". Utterly useless, unprincipled waste of space. If he really thought Johnson was the wrong person to lead the party, he should have stuck with his guns and carried on fighting. Sadly this appears to be a true-blue constituency with a huge majority, so zero chance of him receiving the boot he so richly deserves from his electorate for his U-turn.
 

nw1

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The joy of Gove is that there is an archive of evidence of his accent.

A Stab in the Dark is on All 4.

Gove? I would have loved to have been the DJ at that nightclub he visited last year and played "White Lines (Don't Do It)", just to see what the reaction was.

Only Boris, and his cohort of sycophants, would claim last night vindicated him. It's probably a very sensible idea the vote is confidential because, treachery and self preservation being intrinsic to those with aspirations, it would be revealing as to who voted against him.

As it is, we're now faced with a process of attrition until the next GE..which is a shame really, because in the interim it would have been a delight to watch his ignominious and publicly humiliating eviction from No10.

That said, as it being reported elsewhere, apart from the Excess / Mail of course, last nights result has opened the doors for every opposition party to benefit

That's the thing. Do Johnson's 211 fawning acolytes (the 210 who voted with him, plus Nigel U-Turn of Amber Valley) really think he is the best person to lead them into the next general election?

Even if they don't give a damn about the country, one would think they would give a damn about the electoral successes of their own party.

I really hope they lose spectacularly badly in both Wakefield and Tiverton and Honiton. Perhaps then, this ridiculous cult of personality so evidently endemic within the parliamentary Conservative Party will finally be blown apart.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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The second one, the MP for Amber Valley, Nigel Turner-Coates I think was his name, said he voted for the no-confidence motion but said something along the lines of "Johnson has won, it's time to move on". Utterly useless, unprincipled waste of space. If he really thought Johnson was the wrong person to lead the party, he should have stuck with his guns and carried on fighting. Sadly this appears to be a true-blue constituency with a huge majority, so zero chance of him receiving the boot he so richly deserves from his electorate for his U-turn.

So you don't believe that, once you'd lost an election, the right thing to do is to accept the result?

(Don't get me wrong, As a Tory supporter, I'm disappointed that Boris won, and I do hope that moves will carry on to persuade him to resign. But I can also see an argument that the worst thing for a Governing party to do is to continue in-fighting, and thereby hand a guaranteed victory at the next election to the other side. I don't think it's at all reasonable to accuse someone of being an 'unprincipled waste of space' because they've taken that attitude. And by the way, that was equally true of Labour in Corbyn's day - once Owen Smith had lost his leadership challenge, the best thing (from Labour's point of view) was arguably for those who supported him to accept the result, at least for the time being, rather than destroy Labour by continued in-fighting).
 

nw1

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Rubbish and far too simplistic, like the nauseating fool you have quoted. A lot of Tory MPs on the "payroll" will have voted against Boris.

The whips need to identify the key "traitors" (from Bojo's perespective) in the government and purge them in the same way as Mr R Stewart was treated in late 2019.

Whether or not the Tories do eventually get rid of Bojo, at the next GE the English electorate will do everything to try to ensure that the Labour party can't rule the UK in league with the SNP, who [like Sinn Fein] are enemies of the state. That is what did for Red Ed in 2015.

Do you really think the "English electorate", as a whole, consider the Scottish question so very important that they cannot let Labour in under any circumstances?

What about 2017 when Corbyn, a much more divisive and strident figure than Starmer, got pretty close to winning? Didn't stop people voting Labour then. That could easily have involved a Corbyn-SNP coalition.

Unless Scottish independence (if it happens, which is questionable given it would AFAIK require a clear referendum mandate of >60% for) involves a hard border and Brexit-like restrictions on freedom of movement to and from Scotland, I doubt many people care that much, certainly not enough to make it their number one priority at election time.

I would stick my neck out and say that if Johnson leads the party into the next election, he will certainly lose and we will have a Labour-led coalition of some sort, most likely Lab-Lib Dem. If Johnson is replaced, it's even chances between a Tory-led and Labour-led coalition I suspect - but I would now say a Tory majority in 2024 is very unlikely. Even with a new leader, people will blame the incumbents for the cost-of-living crisis, and the next election is close enough for that to be a still current issue.

So you don't believe that, once you'd lost an election, the right thing to do is to accept the result?
No, firstly because accepting the result (in the sense of not complaining about it) is betraying your principles, and secondly (just like the Brexit referendum, as it happens) because the actual result is more nuanced than that. I see it as more of an opinion poll and a significant minority of Tory MPs are unhappy (even though way too many, in my opinion, voted for him).

Thus, it suggests there is disquiet which cannot be ignored. And as I said in another post, in my view the Tories will do better at the next election if they replace Johnson with someone else. I hope they see that soon (even though I don't want the Tories to win the next election, I believe the "cult of Boris" really needs to end now). I suspect now that the by-election results might give them food for thought.

And by the way, that was equally true of Labour in Corbyn's day - once Owen Smith had lost his leadership challenge, the best thing (from Labour's point of view) was arguably for those who supported him to accept the result, at least for the time being, rather than destroy Labour by continued in-fighting).

I would apply the same logic here too: there was disquiet about Corbyn, and people should have sought to replace him earlier. Perhaps they could have been the largest party after the election in 2017 if that had occurred.
 
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geoffk

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Rubbish and far too simplistic, like the nauseating fool you have quoted. A lot of Tory MPs on the "payroll" will have voted against Boris.

The whips need to identify the key "traitors" (from Bojo's perspective) in the government and purge them in the same way as Mr R Stewart was treated in late 2019.

Whether or not the Tories do eventually get rid of Bojo, at the next GE the English electorate will do everything to try to ensure that the Labour party can't rule the UK in league with the SNP, who [like Sinn Fein] are enemies of the state. That is what did for Red Ed in 2015.
Wow, enemies of the state.........If the UK breaks up it will be because Brexit was "won" by and on behalf of the English. A united Ireland will happen when the majority in NI want it. Scottish independence I still think is less likely. Purging the "one-nation" Tories like Rory Stewart and Dominic Grieve has left us with what we have now - a populist English nationalist party with a leader desperate to cling on to power no matter what. Unfortunately there are several million who think he's like Billy Bunter - a great bloke, a bit disorganised but a "good laugh".
 

nw1

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Wow, enemies of the state.........If the UK breaks up it will be because Brexit was "won" by and on behalf of the English. A united Ireland will happen when the majority in NI want it. Scottish independence I still think is less likely. Purging the "one-nation" Tories like Rory Stewart and Dominic Grieve has left us with what we have now - a populist English nationalist party with a leader desperate to cling on to power no matter what. Unfortunately there are several million who think he's like Billy Bunter - a great bloke, a bit disorganised but a "good laugh".

Also, from the same post you were quoting, "the whips need to identify the key 'traitors' and purge them"? Is that a serious comment? We can't have independent thought in Parliament now, can we? :(
 

Typhoon

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Or they were wiser than her and were keeping their heads down until it was clear which way the wind was blowing.
Sorry - I should have put 'unavailable' in quotes (as in hiding under the table in the constituency office with the lights off)


William Hague
I reckon he would have made a good PM - 1997 was too early for him, too many gaffs (a bit like Milliband). He could have learnt the job as a shadow to one of the 'Great Offices of State'.
Where did it go wrong for the Conservatives? Hague opposition leader in 1997. Should have been Michael Howard for Blair's first term. There was no way the Conservatives would win in 2001, Howard would have kept the pressure on Blair. Hague might have don't OK in 2005 and, if kept on, would have been a better shot than 'Call me Dave' in 2010.
 

najaB

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Unfortunately there are several million who think he's like Billy Bunter - a great bloke, a bit disorganised but a "good laugh".
Which is fine if you're organising a piss-up, but less so if you're trying to run the brewery.
 

GS250

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Wow, enemies of the state.........If the UK breaks up it will be because Brexit was "won" by and on behalf of the English. A united Ireland will happen when the majority in NI want it. Scottish independence I still think is less likely. Purging the "one-nation" Tories like Rory Stewart and Dominic Grieve has left us with what we have now - a populist English nationalist party with a leader desperate to cling on to power no matter what. Unfortunately there are several million who think he's like Billy Bunter - a great bloke, a bit disorganised but a "good laugh".
I'm not sure they've remotely delivered on any of their 'populist' policies though? I suppose Brexit did get done...although our Political Class have shown a lack of ability to secure the big global trade deals that were promised. However, a complete failure to deal with (especially illegal) immigration and law and order are obvious weak points. Both of these are probably allowed to remain an issue as part of the 'divide and conquer' ploy mind.

I do actually think...a Lib-Lab-SNP coalition would be great fun for the UK for a few years. Lets see how things would unfold with a different set of individuals at the helm. The political landscape may look totally different after their first term.
 

jfollows

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The other thing that's doing neither Boris Johnson nor the Conservative Party any favours is this obsession with blaming the media, because what starts as some kind of useful trope invented as an excuse for poor behaviour and incompetence turns worse because they start believing it as well - a bit like Home Secretaries who end up believe lots of nonsense (along with lots of sense) pushed their way by the police and security services. So they're rabbiting on now and blaming the media, who are in fact the people who are asking them the questions they don't want to answer.
 

Yew

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Rubbish and far too simplistic, like the nauseating fool you have quoted. A lot of Tory MPs on the "payroll" will have voted against Boris.

The whips need to identify the key "traitors" (from Bojo's perespective) in the government and purge them in the same way as Mr R Stewart was treated in late 2019.

Whether or not the Tories do eventually get rid of Bojo, at the next GE the English electorate will do everything to try to ensure that the Labour party can't rule the UK in league with the SNP, who [like Sinn Fein] are enemies of the state. That is what did for Red Ed in 2015.
Traitors? How can that word be justified for members of a pert engaging in due process?

Agreed. To my mind, Douglas Ross's position has been perfectly consistent. He went on record very early on as saying Boris should resign because of Partygate. He temporarily withdrew his no confidence letter when the Ukraine suddenly crisis blew up, on the basis that, although he didn't want Boris as PM, the middle of a crisis wasn't the right time to hold a no-confidence vote. That seems reasonable to me - it's perhaps easy to forget now, but back in February, Ukraine was a huge crisis dominating everything. He clearly still in principle wants Boris to go, but also still thinks that the vote shouldn't have been held now. But given that other MPs forced the no-confidence vote anyway, outside his control, he's hardly going to not vote and express his opinion in it when the vote is going to happen anyway.

But of course he's a Tory MP, and it seems that in the minds of some people that's sufficient justification to gratuitously look for the worst possible interpretation of everything he does - even if what he's doing is perfectly reasonable and consistent :(
We can’t let things like facts get in the way of the Tabloid glee at screaming about U-Turns. It’s almost like they want us to be ruled by pig headed opinionated oafs
 
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43096

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Wow, enemies of the state.........If the UK breaks up it will be because Brexit was "won" by and on behalf of the English. A united Ireland will happen when the majority in NI want it. Scottish independence I still think is less likely. Purging the "one-nation" Tories like Rory Stewart and Dominic Grieve has left us with what we have now - a populist English nationalist party with a leader desperate to cling on to power no matter what. Unfortunately there are several million who think he's like Billy Bunter - a great bloke, a bit disorganised but a "good laugh".
Also, from the same post you were quoting, "the whips need to identify the key 'traitors' and purge them"? Is that a serious comment? We can't have independent thought in Parliament now, can we? :(

The Putin love-in by “daodao” on the Ukraine thread is making an awful lot more sense now.
 
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