Rail strikes discussion

[GB]

Entirely possible but also unlikely - why would a non-union signaller who does the job every day suddenly make that many mistakes, on a day where far fewer trains are running?

What do you mean "that many mistakes"? How many incidents from the same panel/signaller are we talking?

 

[Wolfie]

I explained further upthread (I know it's easy to lose stuff in a busy discussion like this) that I'm aware of the rules regarding the maximum size of picket and I believe them to be wrong. It's the right (and I would argue duty) of those on strike to picket, and restrictions on numbers is an underhand way of the government trying to quieten the unions. I say this as someone who sits centre right, politically.

It was done because of allegations, whether correct or otherwise, of intimidation by massed pickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2022 ==

I refer you to my later post.
(Hint: I was being sarcastic)
But while on the subject you agree to a barrister getting 15% but railway workers………….

I hadn't seen your later post when l posted, sorry. I didn't say that l agreed with barristers getting 15% but l fully understand what the issue is.

 

[Efini92]

What do you mean "that many mistakes"? How many incidents from the same panel/signaller are we talking?

Looking at that Twitter link there was 2 trains at selhurst station within 3 hours of each other.

 

[D1537]

ComRes poll: 58% of the public believe strikes justified, 34% don't.

18-34s: 72%-22%
35-54s: 62%-30%
55 and over:44%-48%

2019 Tory voters: 37% - 55%
2019 Labour voters: 79% - 17%

2,336 adults stratified by location and demographic, 20 June

 

[PupCuff]

https://twitter.com/nicholasdhair?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

This is one particular grump I have - imagine the furore (rightfully) if a manager leaked incident log details of incidents involving say, RMT conductors on an average day. Yet, when it's non-union members and management working panels, trains, etc, it's seen as fair game.

It seeks to imply that there is some safety issue in order to intentionally shock and cause concern, when in fact anyone who actually knows what they're looking at can see it's a fairly tame list of incidents compared to some days.

 

[SignallerJohn]

This is one particular grump I have - imagine the furore (rightfully) if a manager leaked incident log details of incidents involving say, RMT conductors on an average day. Yet, when it's non-union members and management working panels, trains, etc, it's seen as fair game.

It seeks to imply that there is some safety issue in order to intentionally shock and cause concern, when in fact anyone who actually knows what they're looking at can see it's a fairly tame list of incidents compared to some days.

????

Incident logs get leaked every time there is an incident. Look at any thread in this forum and you can guarantee someone will leak what has happened within a few minutes of someone asking “How come all trains were at a stand at X junction for X time”.

 

[Efini92]

This is one particular grump I have - imagine the furore (rightfully) if a manager leaked incident log details of incidents involving say, RMT conductors on an average day. Yet, when it's non-union members and management working panels, trains, etc, it's seen as fair game.

It seeks to imply that there is some safety issue in order to intentionally shock and cause concern, when in fact anyone who actually knows what they're looking at can see it's a fairly tame list of incidents compared to some days.

It’s not normal to see two trains wrong routed in the same place hours apart.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Mick Lynch very measured on C4 News won't be bated by Cathy Newman but basically says the first step is job protection before they will move onto talking about modernising and reiterates that they negotiated with NR to modernise track patrolling so they will engage.

As I've been saying for weeks my take is this can be resolved but govt have really backed themselves into a corner here and from BoJos rhetoric at cabinet this morning they want a fight here.

 

[jettofab]

Just to look at that document (assuming it is authentic) from the perspective of a layperson I find most of it to look pretty reasonable to be honest although would think there should be scope to go from 2+1 to say 4/5 + 1

It seems completely reasonable to think about the role of booking offices in 2022 and beyond - Similar to local banks or post offices they may sound like something that we should have but unfortunately the hard numbers just really don't support them anymore and like those other things it is only ever going to go in one direction sadly. Of course there will be edge cases to work out but fundamentally if something isn't being used then we shouldn't preserve it for the sake of it.

On Pensions an increase in pension age is completely reasonable - An age of 62 is an outlier compared to other comparable pension schemes (e.g. NHS 65 , Civil Service SPA , Teachers SPA) and the benefits still look to be pretty damn good compared to what you would get elsewhere. Of course everyone doesn't want to work longer for the pension, and given some of the comments it appears many of you truly hate your jobs, but we are living longer and the continued viability of the scheme must also be considered.

Sunday services are an absolute must to the future of your industry - commuting is not likely to go back to how it was so you need to cater to the market that is there when the demand is there which is the leisure market including weekends.

So 2%+1% does sound a little stingy compared to where the private sector settlements are right now (+ where public sector likely to be) but the rest really doesn't sound that unreasonable to be honest - you would still have a very good set of T&Cs compared to the wider economy.

What frustrates me about a lot of comments on this forum is the argument that times have changed and therefore the railway needs to be 24/7 and, as above, have the same pension age as others, while ignoring the fact that times have changed and we know much more about the impacts of shift work on health, both physical and mental. Shift work is unavoidable on the railway and in other industries but the impact is ignored, both by management and by outsiders. We ought to be balancing the requirements of the railway to expand its hours with an understanding of the demands that places on staff. And if pension ages need to be extended then we need a sensible conversation about the suitability of shift work and what options there are to transition older workers into more suitable roles, should they desire. It's a conversation no one is willing to have though. Instead, we get people bleating about how we know what we're signing up for (not so, the Sundays and the unsociable hours have increased since I started) and that we can leave if we don't like it (or, we could divert the money needed for endlessly training new starters into retention via addressing some of these issues).

I caught the tail end of a Grant Shapps interview earlier, and he was making noises about the 4 day week, you could hear the eye rolling in his voice. But a 4 day week working office hours with some autonomy over your day is very different to working a 4 day week getting up pre 0300 and being bound by a diagram, with no wiggle room over when you can get a coffee.

I'm not suggesting the removal of unsociable hours and nor am I suggesting these are issues unique to the railway but I do think it needs to be included, and taken seriously, in conversations about the future of the industry.

I feel the same about nurses, firefighters etc. Their knowledge and experience is invaluable and should be made the most of, but is an active frontline role the best for everyone when the firefighter is 65?

 

[Signal_Box]

But you people always cry that railway staff knew what they signed up for when they applied for the job? Yeah, they did, Sunday not included in the working week. But now you want it both ways?? How much compensation should staff get on to the basic pay for the implementation of Sunday working?

Exactly, I signed up for a 24/7/365 job with a set of terms and conditions with a pension I contribute to and pay extra at 65.

I except Sundays, likewise nights are part of my role and I do them without complaint. I do however expect the premium that those shifts attract though, if at some point Sunday is to be merged into my standard contracted week then I also expect that to be added to my standard salary, likewise nights - pay then at standard rate if you wish but I expect that reduction to be factored into my base salary. As it stands if my yearly rostered Sundays (X2 per month) and nights turns where factored into a plain salary it would add circa 15k to my base. I’d also expect the new base to be pensionable as it is now.

So I’m all for modernisation but if needs to be fair, as I signed up for A I expect A not E or even G both at much worse packages.

Surely that fair ?

 

[Watershed]

I thought that, albeit a small number, some drivers were represented by RMT, or is that only on the tube?

A very small number, generally those that were previously a guard and for whatever reason decide to stay in the RMT. Greater Anglia drivers will be on strike on Thursday and many other operators will no doubt follow suit, with ballots now underway.

But while on the subject you agree to a barrister getting 15% but railway workers………….

If you compare the incomes of criminal defence barristers and rail workers over the last 10-15 years I think you might have a different view...

Though rail workers have had a pay freeze for 3 years, thus a reduction in their inflation adjusted pay, they have not had years of literal pay cuts as barristers have.

 

[PupCuff]

????

Incident logs get leaked every time there is an incident. Look at any thread in this forum and you can guarantee someone will leak what has happened within a few minutes of someone asking “How come all trains were at a stand at X junction for X time”.

"Every time there is an incident"?

What, all of the hundreds that happen every day?

Someone saying what caused a given incident in response to a question isn't the same as going and trying to discredit a group of people by selectively pulling data from internal systems and sharing it publicly on social media. It's Daily Mail-esque levels of pseudojournalism.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Exactly, I signed up for a 24/7/365 job with a set of terms and conditions with a pension I contribute to and pay extra at 65.

I except Sundays, likewise nights are part of my role and I do them without complaint. I do however expect the premium that those shifts attract though, if at some point Sunday is to be merged into my standard contracted week then I also expect that to be added to my standard salary, likewise nights - pay then at standard rate if you wish but I expect that reduction to be factored into my base salary. As it stands if my yearly rostered Sundays (X2 per month) and nights turns where factored into a plain salary it would add circa 15k to my base. I’d also expect the new base to be pensionable as it is now.

So I’m all for modernisation but if needs to be fair, as I signed up for A I expect A not E or even G both at much worse packages.

Surely that fair ?

You should be remunerated accordingly to incorporate whatever premium/enhancements you get now for doing those shifts. Seems though from what other commentators have said is that would cost the operators more which is why despite 25 years of privatisation many TOCs have never attempted to amend T&Cs.

 

[Signal_Box]

Mick Lynch very measured on C4 News won't be bated by Cathy Newman but basically says the first step is job protection before they will move onto talking about modernising and reiterates that they negotiated with NR to modernise track patrolling so they will engage.

As I've been saying for weeks my take is this can be resolved but govt have really backed themselves into a corner here and from BoJos rhetoric at cabinet this morning they want a fight here.

Did you notice the chancellor’s face, almost smirking next to the idiot we have to call our leader. So much so they camera has to zoom in to get his face out of shot.

 

[Signal_Box]

You should be remunerated accordingly to incorporate whatever premium/enhancements you get now for doing those shifts. Seems though from what other commentators have said is that would cost the operators more which is why despite 25 years of privatisation many TOCs have never attempted to amend T&Cs.

Indeed that is the case, so why (not directed at you personally) is the mess the industry in the staffs fault ?

 

[jayah]

There are certainly ways that it could be handled more efficiently (e.g. the suggestion of having a central clearing house, as with ORCATS/LENNON for revenue) but having lower thresholds than the statutory minimum (60 minutes) does not cost an awful amount, given the percentages in question.

The bigger issue is that people would rightly complain the railway is still performing poorly in many areas, and you are reducing people compensation therefore without any associated benefit.

It's also only something that can be done once - if you do it this year, what will you raid for next year's payrise?

The average fare is probably about £8 and on delay repay you get 20-25% of half of that?

Having hundreds of £m of almost new trains in store while buying even more of them is wasting quite a bit more than delay repay.

 

[Gems]

Did you notice the chancellor’s face, almost smirking next to the idiot we have to call our leader. So much so they camera has to zoom in to get his face out of shot.

It serves his purpose to pick a fight. I mean, It takes the news that he tried to get a £100k job for his mistress at the time out of the headlines. But don't worry, once the heat returns he'll be off to the Ukraine again for another photo shoot.

 

[Signal_Box]

Do the RMT not offer strike pay?

You might get a few pound, I mean a few pound if your lucky. You will definitely not get anything like your hourly rate or pay.

 

[High Dyke]

Just been sent this.

 

[jayah]

All I really know about 12 hour shifts are from nurses. I spent a lot of time chatting them a little while ago and asked this a lot - every single one of them preferred the 12 hour shifts and 3 day weeks.

We know all this, clock watchers want to minimise their time at work and time spent getting to work. They want to do their time and ###@ off. They want long blocks of rest days and the opportunity for overtime in leui of them if it suits.

We also know there is a reason you aren't allowed to drive in the 12th hour of 12, why ORR recommends 10hr nights as a maximum and why coming back to work after 10 rest days is a well known SPAD risk.

The unions play the safety card when it suits them. The members come first.

 

[AlterEgo]

Then people would complain about hundreds of people on a picket line, ‘intimidating’ etc.

Speaking of which, Kay Burley’s ridiculous questioning of Mick Lynch this morning regarding picketing of agency staff was quite something.

Unusually good comms from RMT there, he did well not to fall for the bait. Laughable interview by Burley.

 

[jayah]

I notice you cut an important part of my post.

Should they have their feet up with the wheels coming off down the road?

Simple question.

 

[Signal_Box]

Traffic levels being reported as the same as any Tuesday this morning. Mick's dreams of bringing the country to a grinding halt appear to have crashed and burned already.

Really, no chance !

No service in Cornwall or Devon, no service north of Edinburgh or Glasgow, no service west of Cardiff.

I suggest you get your information from a range or outlets, not just the daily hate !

 

[Elorith]

The days of an ever-expanding railway are over. If the unions are not careful, this strike will hasten a big contraction of the system and services and could in a worse case scenario bring about its virtual demise.

The NUM now has fewer than 100 members to represent a workforce of near zero. This could easily be the future of our railways, with the only stations with any sort of service being on our voluntee-run heritage lines.

The pre-COVID world has gone and is as much a part of history as the Victorian age. The railway network needs a drastic programme of cost-reductions using as much technology as possible to reduce costs and reflect the cold economic reality of the new world.

But some TOCs are already making more in profit than they ever have before?

 

[jayah]

Indeed that is the case, so why (not directed at you personally) is the mess the industry in the staffs fault ?

The nationalisation of losses.

There is a reason LUL closed all of their ticket offices 7 years ago and the rapacious privateers didn't.

Nobody even seems to have gone to government and offered them £m lower subsidy.

Now the government is paying the bills, mind's have become focused.

 

[theageofthetra]

You're havin a laugh. Linking pension age to life expectancy was all the rage with the Tories whilst the expectancy age was rising. But now it is falling again, and I see no rush to lower the pension age.
No, lets be honest before we start to kid ourselves. It's all to do with the one thing Tories understand. Money.

Political suicide as it would also have to be based on the lower life expectancy of some ethnic groups.

 

[jayah]

But some TOCs are already making more in profit than they ever have before?

I doubt it will come to that.

The Tube is doing pretty well despite scarcely having managed a strike free month since Ken Livingstone was running it.

 

[Signal_Box]

I thought you already worked for the railway now ? Wouldn't it be far better to create a more adaptive workorce where staff can multi-skill and be used to cover where required ? My TOC is already paying internals to cover other positions.

Do you remember the days prior to NSE demanning and deskilling ?

When for example a points failure at Sidcup could be attended to by the local station staff ? After the modernisation program dedicated MOMs had to drive from miles away to do the same job, Sod’s law in rush hour traffic.

I’m sure the staff didn’t vote for that, more modern management ideas…..

 

[theageofthetra]

This DOO driver set his alarm for 5 this morning, phoned in to book on and went back to sleep.

We had to go in sit around in an over crowded rest room potentially passing Covid onto each other for 6 hours. Not one driver was used.

Guess what I'll be voting for in the upcoming ballot?

 

[jayah]

Really, no chance !

No service in Cornwall or Devon, no service north of Edinburgh or Glasgow, no service west of Cardiff.

I suggest you get your information from a range or outlets, not just the daily hate !

Outside London the railway makes no difference to road traffic.