Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[dakta]

I wil put myself in the 'mind' of senior government politicians with an election coming up in the next 2 years.

"I have limited public money to grant pay rises with.

Which public workers should I be most generous to?

Which have been most needed & valued during the last 3 years?

Which will give my party more votes?"

I am trying to bring some realism to this debate.

I'm of the same mind, I suspect the reason the NHS gets raised so often is not because anyone wants to drag the rail staff down but because there's a real world out there and its not in a good state. Might want to check it before threatening to do it more harm :/

 

[HSTEd]

I hesitate to get involved here at all, but I think the Crossrail Auto-reverse system, once they get it to work reliably, is significant to industrial relations moving forward.

For the first time we have a well established technical basis for what it will take for the regulator to accept functionally unattended train movements on the national rail system. Sure the driver is still aboard but has no meaningful way to control the train whilst they are walking through to the other end.

The cost of replacing drivers with automation, is for the moment, very high. But this alone significantly enlightens such discussions, especially with ETCS rollout finally about to actually start properly.

If driver salaries were to escalate, or industrial action results in significant political cost there will come a time where the government decides to spend the money to make this problem go away.

The example of the Paris Metro has already shown this in action.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Some drivers who like to post interesting pictures and thoughts from their job on Twitter, have sadly turned their accounts from a nice pleasant photo sharing page to a political rant of verbal hatred. It’s a shame, as I always liked looking at the cab pictures, now I just see “THOSE SCUMBAGS HAVE TWISTED THE TRUTH AND TURNED THE PUBLIC AGAINST US!” and woe betide anyone who disagrees. It’s like, mate, if I wanted all that hoo ha I’d have re-watched the US Election.

Why does everything have to be so toxic these days

PS: To any smart comments about “Unfollow then.” I have, but Twitter continues to suggest and show me all of them

 

[class 9]

I hesitate to get involved here at all, but I think the Crossrail Auto-reverse system, once they get it to work reliably, is significant to industrial relations moving forward.

For the first time we have a well established technical basis for what it will take for the regulator to accept functionally unattended train movements on the national rail system. Sure the driver is still aboard but has no meaningful way to control the train whilst they are walking through to the other end.

The cost of replacing drivers with automation, is for the moment, very high. But this alone significantly enlightens such discussions, especially with ETCS rollout finally about to actually start properly.

If driver salaries were to escalate, or industrial action results in significant political cost there will come a time where the government decides to spend the money to make this problem go away.

The example of the Paris Metro has already shown this in action.

As far as I'm aware, there are no mixed traffic railway systems fully automated anywhere in the world.

 

[mandub]

As far as I'm aware, there are no mixed traffic railway systems fully automated anywhere in the world.

Indeed.
Threats to the drivers jobs/salary are real. But it's not from automation in the near or medium term. Not remotely achievable yet.
The threat is ideological in that govt may just turn away from passenger rail and let it whither away and instead subsidise even further private vehicle ownership and usage

 

[Need2]

How will the public accept the pay strike with that disparity in these 2 key public service industries?

Which of them will the public think most worthy of a large pay rise?

Well what do you think then Einstein when people like you continually compare one workers wage with another industry?
All the public see is “train drivers earn £60k and a poor nurse earns £xx”
Get over it man.

 

[Signal_Box]

Actually only asmall percentage of nurses are bands 6 to 8. My wife had decades of experience but was band 5 doing paediatric oncology ( £26,000 - £ 30000) prior to COVID. Can you believe it.

Teachers, Social Workers & Police mostly £30, 000 -£35,000.
The limited public sector pay funding should go to levelling up pay between professions.

Why has train driver pay lept ahead of these other professions in the last 40 years.

I am anything but anti driver. It is an admirable career. I have traveled by train for 70 years including to school, work & leisure as far as S. Italy

Maybe she should of worked harder at school if she wants a pay raise ?

I want out of this dying industry personally

Go on then, don’t the let hit you on the bum when you leave.

 

[dk1]

Yes you could unshackle all these workers by attacking pay, but that’s looking at just one tiny part of the greater picture. If you want to see the impact this would have, take a look over at GA (don’t worry @dk1, some of us still remember where that is). I left there 10 years ago and now I barely recognise any of their drivers because a lot have left. The upshot of this is that any savings on the wage bill compared to other TOCs simply gets spent on recruitment and training all the replacements necessary.

So what’s better? A well-paid but committed and productive workforce or discontent and endless churn?

Haha that did make me chuckle mate. Out of interest, was it West Anglia where you where based?

 

[Annetts key]

I doubt it, no one has ever been forced to be promoted.

Promotion is optional. But the changes to how many weeks of nights and weekends are written into the current terms and conditions for most of the Network Rail infrastructure staff. So if you want promotion within the grades covered by these T&Cs, by accepting the promotion, you are accepting the worse T&Cs.

My dad was a driver on the railways, retiring a few years early due to health issues in 1988. I have a certificate from the British Railways London Midland Railways Region Area Manager marking his retirement after 42 years service. I also have his ASLEF membership card. What I do know was that certainly during the 1950’s and 60’s his wages were appallingly low and my parents really struggled financially. Even during the 1970’s and up until he retired the pay was not good considering the responsibility he had as a driver.

Maybe you can’t remember or it was not discussed, but yes, under British Rail, the basic wages were rather, shall we say, disappointing. However, back then, staff made their money by working Sundays (they were not part of the normal working week back then, so they were worked as overtime shifts).

And by working overtime elsewhere in the week. The various enhancements for working nights, Saturdays, Sundays or overtime could significantly increase a person’s take home pay. In fact, some people in some grades could almost double their take home pay (well, before the tax man took his slice).

Since then, either BR or later, most of the companies during privatisation changed the T&Cs. So most staff have seen a good increase in their basic wage, but with very much reduced enhancement rates for working working nights, Saturdays, Sundays or overtime.

 

[dk1]

Maybe you can’t remember or it was not discussed, but yes, under British Rail, the basic wages were rather, shall we say, disappointing. However, back then, staff made their money by working Sundays (they were not part of the normal working week back then, so they were worked as overtime shifts).

And by working overtime elsewhere in the week. The various enhancements for working nights, Saturdays, Sundays or overtime could significantly increase a person’s take home pay. In fact, some people in some grades could almost double their take home pay (well, before the tax man took his slice).

Since then, either BR or later, most of the companies during privatisation changed the T&Cs. So most staff have seen a good increase in their basic wage, but with very much reduced enhancement rates for working working nights, Saturdays, Sundays or overtime.

Trouble was back then with enhancements for various shift allowances & mileage etc was that if you where restricted or long term sick your pay dropped rather sharply. DRI changed all that back in the 90s.

 

[Annetts key]

I wil put myself in the 'mind' of senior government politicians with an election coming up in the next 2 years.

"I have limited public money to grant pay rises with.

Which public workers should I be most generous to?

Which have been most needed & valued during the last 3 years?

Which will give my party more votes?"

I am trying to bring some realism to this debate.

Err, governments ALWAYS have a limited amount of public money, often because they want to keep the level of taxes low.

And every government department is (nearly) always asking for a increase in their budget or looking to cut costs to stay within their current budget.

That’s not significantly different from how it works in most commercial industries (unless that particular company is having a really good year).

Hence why if employees want a reasonable pay rise, if negotiations fail, then there are either two options. Give up, or take industrial action.

 

[class 9]

Trouble was back then with enhancements for various shift allowances & mileage etc was that if you where restricted or long term sick your pay dropped rather sharply. DRI changed all that back in the 90s.

Is it my imagination, but since DRI, the number of staff on accommodated turns increased quite substantially, they get the same money for their chosen times and everyone else gets the exactly the same for doing all the crap turns that are left.

 

[dk1]

Is it my imagination, but since DRI, the number of staff on accommodated turns increased quite substantially, they get the same money for their chosen times and everyone else gets the exactly the same for doing all the crap turns that are left.

Yes I suppose it did when I look at it. Also those that always swapped for nights stopped doing so almost overnight.

 

[O L Leigh]

The threat is ideological in that govt may just turn away from passenger rail and let it whither away and instead subsidise even further private vehicle ownership and usage

I think that's as likely as Skynet taking my job, as any such move is also likely to be very costly, both politically as well as financially.

 

[Davester50]

Some drivers who like to post interesting pictures and thoughts from their job on Twitter, have sadly turned their accounts from a nice pleasant photo sharing page to a political rant of verbal hatred. It’s a shame, as I always liked looking at the cab pictures, now I just see “THOSE SCUMBAGS HAVE TWISTED THE TRUTH AND TURNED THE PUBLIC AGAINST US!” and woe betide anyone who disagrees. It’s like, mate, if I wanted all that hoo ha I’d have re-watched the US Election.

Why does everything have to be so toxic these days

PS: To any smart comments about “Unfollow then.” I have, but Twitter continues to suggest and show me all of them

Block then. They or Twitter don't owe you a jot.

 

[Lost property]

No doubt Shapps / Philps and even possibly JR-M will be along to say agency staff can now be employed so the strikes, if they happen, can easily be negated until the Drivers " see sense ", to use a favourite term of those who feel it's entirely the drivers fault for taking industrial action in the first place.

At least one of the three above is capable of explaining how driving a train is terribly easy...a green light means go, a red light means stop, you move a handle with one hand and the train moves as fast or slow as you want, and with another hand you put the brakes on when you want to stop...agency staff can easily be trained therefore.

Never, ever, put anything so implausible to be uttered by any member of this Gov't as fantasy

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Block then. They or Twitter don't owe you a jot.

This is what I mean. The industrial action situation is bringing out a repulsive hostility/defensiveness in many people.

 

[Davester50]

This is what I mean. The industrial action situation is bringing out a repulsive hostility/defensiveness in many people.

Twitter is a mess the best of time, echo chambers of left and right.

Your complaint just came across as quite petulant in that you only expected them to show you things you wanted.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Twitter is a mess the best of time, echo chambers of left and right.

Your complaint just came across as quite petulant in that you only expected them to show you things you wanted.

It was a less of a complaint, and more of a sad observation that even nice pleasant Twitter accounts are becoming rather toxic, due to the way the whole situation has escalated.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Is it my imagination, but since DRI, the number of staff on accommodated turns increased quite substantially, they get the same money for their chosen times and everyone else gets the exactly the same for doing all the crap turns that are left.

Accommodated staff drop 20% of wages at our TOC due to not working any unsociable hours.

 

[the sniper]

It was a less of a complaint, and more of a sad observation that even nice pleasant Twitter accounts are becoming rather toxic, due to the way the whole situation has escalated.

Your complaint just came across as quite petulant in that you only expected them to show you things you wanted.

Too bad it ain't all just lolz about the oh so toxic 'tantrums in the messroom'...

 

[whoosh]

I hesitate to get involved here at all, but I think the Crossrail Auto-reverse system, once they get it to work reliably, is significant to industrial relations moving forward.

For the first time we have a well established technical basis for what it will take for the regulator to accept functionally unattended train movements on the national rail system. Sure the driver is still aboard but has no meaningful way to control the train whilst they are walking through to the other end.

The cost of replacing drivers with automation, is for the moment, very high. But this alone significantly enlightens such discussions, especially with ETCS rollout finally about to actually start properly.

If driver salaries were to escalate, or industrial action results in significant political cost there will come a time where the government decides to spend the money to make this problem go away.

The example of the Paris Metro has already shown this in action.

A self-contained service of Westbourne Park Reversing Siding to Abbey Wood, is about the most realistic of any completely automatic idealistic dreams.

Paris Metro Line 1 was converted to completely automatic, yes. Again, a self-contained line.
Interestingly, despite the French love of strikes, there wasn't a single one over this issue - probably because of how negotiations with staff were conducted.

 

[Davester50]

It was a less of a complaint, and more of a sad observation that even nice pleasant Twitter accounts are becoming rather toxic, due to the way the whole situation has escalated.

People worried about their livelihoods during one of the worst financial climates with punitive anti-union laws enacted in countless generations?
It's not going to be a bed of roses.
People are angry, and it's not just limited to the rail industry. Even the Police here have withdrawn goodwill.
You'll have to find another source for your entertainment while those people have bigger issues.

 

[whoosh]

And that's considering Arriva rail London were offered 5%.

MTR Elizabeth Line, April 2022, 1 year deal, 8.2%, no stings.

• April 1st 2022: February RPI [which was 8.2%] or 2% whichever is greater
• All other terms & conditions to remain unchanged
• There will be no compulsory redundancies throughout the period covered by the pay award
• All existing agreements will be honored including those relating to new technology, Rest Day Working and all other terms & conditions.


Just up the road, meanwhile...
Arriva Rail London, offer, April 2022, 5%.



Can you see why they may not be happy?

 

[baz962]

MTR Elizabeth Line, April 2022, 1 year deal, 8.2%, no stings.

• April 1st 2022: February RPI [which was 8.2%] or 2% whichever is greater
• All other terms & conditions to remain unchanged
• There will be no compulsory redundancies throughout the period covered by the pay award
• All existing agreements will be honored including those relating to new technology, Rest Day Working and all other terms & conditions.


Just up the road, meanwhile...
Arriva Rail London, offer, April 2022, 5%.



Can you see why they may not be happy?

I can. Although they were on a few grand more anyway. 5% puts them level.

 

[JonathanH]

And I wonder what kind of railway we would have at the end of this. People in most of the UK will have learnt to live without trains and we could be seeing something like Serpell Mark II.

Given the changes to working practices intended for RMT and TSSA members, eg the continued extension of DOO / DCO, closure of ticket offices, cut backs to pension accrual, lower pay and longer hours etc, it doesn't look like they really have a lot to lose.

I note that there is a suggestion that there is a better offer from Network Rail which the RMT Executive may decide to put to a vote.

https://news.sky.com/story/network-...-union-calls-it-a-real-terms-pay-cut-12650792

Network Rail makes new pay offer to workers after strikes but RMT union calls it a 'real-terms pay cut'

RMT general secretary Mick Lynch responded to the offer by saying: "We will not hesitate to call further strike action and co-ordinate this with other trade unions if the industry continues to fob us off with unacceptable offers."

Tuesday 12 July 2022 19:55, UK

Network Rail has made a new pay offer to workers following three days of strike action last month, but it does not appear to have been welcomed by union bosses.

Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers' union (RMT) general secretary Mick Lynch said in a message to members on Tuesday: "It amounts to a real-terms pay cut for members over the next two years and would cut a third of all frontline maintenance roles and half of all scheduled maintenance work."

He added that there was also a "wholesale expectation of unsocial hours and lower pay across the board".

According to Network Rail, the two-year deal includes:

• Over 5% rise for all RMT members and more for those paid under £30,000 - sources close to the employers told Sky News the Network Rail offer was worth up to 10% for the lowest-paid
• A 4% rise on basic pay would be paid in year one, backdated to January, with 2% in year two and a further 2% if modernisation reform milestones are met
• 75% discounted travel for employees and family from January 2023
• Some £650 for each worker as a cash "bonus"
• A further £250 lump sum for those paid under £24,000
• A guarantee of no compulsory redundancies for the two years

Mr Lynch told members: "Network Rail has offered high level managers a huge hike in salary in return for very modest flexibility compared to what you and your colleagues have been offered.

"All companies involved in this dispute need to understand that key railway workers have lost thousands of pounds in earnings due to a pay freeze in recent years - and rightly, you refuse to be short-changed again.

"Settlements reached with London Underground and recently Merseyrail are also well in excess of what you have been offered here.

"We will not hesitate to call further strike action and co-ordinate this with other trade unions if the industry continues to fob us off with unacceptable offers."

A Network Rail spokesperson said: "Today we have put a new pay offer on the table for our RMT colleagues which will be worth over 5%, conditional on achieving savings through modernising reforms.

"There's also money on the table for a fair and affordable deal for next year too.

"While money is extremely tight because of the railway's financial troubles following the pandemic, we can afford to make this offer if our people accept change and compromise, which will fund it."

Talks between the RMT and train operators are continuing this evening, while the RMT executive committee will meet on Wednesday to discuss the offer.

Meanwhile, the Transport Salaried Staffs Association said it has received improved pay offers from Network Rail following a day of talks with the company.

A pay offer of 3% has been made for management grades and 4% for general grades, with the potential for more if productivity targets are met, said TSSA.

General secretary Manuel Cortes said: "These latest offers don't come close to what our Network Rail members expect.

"After years of pay freezes, these latest proposals will only bake in real-terms pay cuts for everyone across Network Rail.

"However, we note that after a decade of a commitment by NR bosses to no compulsory redundancies this is back on the table."

He added: "Our reps will now consider these offers, which come with more than 50 strings attached. The company expects our union to consider the dispute over. It isn't.

"Network Rail top brass need to wake up. From their managers right through to support and front-line staff - rail staff across Network Rail have had enough."

 

[The Planner]

No one put up the NR band 5-8 offer? Was surprised at that, and would be surprised if it was rejected.

 

[JonathanH]

No one put up the NR band 5-8 offer? Was surprised at that, and would be surprised if it was rejected.

Is that the one the Unions are still calling a real terms pay cut that I have quoted above? Both the RMT and TSSA are saying it isn't enough to end the dispute.

 

[Bald Rick]

Mr Lynch told members: "Network Rail has offered high level managers a huge hike in salary in return for very modest flexibility compared to what you and your colleagues have been offered.

well that’s not correct!

 

[VP185]

Is that the one the Unions are still calling a real terms pay cut that I have quoted above? Both the RMT and TSSA are saying it isn't enough to end the dispute.

No where near enough. Unfortunately inflation is predicted to hit 11% and the offer on the table is 4% with 2% next year plus an additional 2% if targets are met. Definitely not a fair deal in the current climate.