Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[dakta]

No I don't think so, but it's a common straw man. There are a lot of people here who do work on better public services as their day job, however, and that includes railways and other public transport.

I just found it a bit of a bizarre approach to take in response to what you said, it's a bit like grumbling about politics in the pub and have a punter turn around and ask if you expect the prime minister to quit because of your complaint answer might be no but what difference does that make to pub discussion. I know where you're coming from.

 

[Ostrich]

It does happen to be more than the occasional strike day in the memory banks of the rail passengers when you recall the length of dispute time that occurred on the franchises of both Southern and of Northern (which you do mention above) not so very long ago.

I'm not going to comment on the rights and wrongs of this current industrial dispute and strike action, but merely say that I've been a "rail enthusiast" and used the railways all my life for leisure travel, latterly indulging my hobby of watching soccer / rugby matches across the country. Being on the West of England line, my plans were more than a fair bit disrupted by the long-running SWR 'retain the guards' strike action back in 2020, including having to miss some important family events; I therefore got out of the habit of opting for train travel and started using the car more. Then we had Covid. The jolly old Senior Railcard lapsed; I didn't bother to renew it. This season I was wondering whether to pick up on it again - but now we have yet more industrial action, which I can only guess is going to run for months. So, I'll be sticking to the car from here on in.

Now I'm just one guy, inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. But that's around £500 pa permanently lost to the railways now. Again, not even peanuts in the overall financing of the railway. But strikes do affect your way of thinking, and I may not be the only punter thinking that way ....

 

[Starmill]

I just found it a bit of a bizarre approach to take in response to what you said, it's a bit like grumbling about politics in the pub and have a punter turn around and ask if you expect the prime minister to quit because of your complaint answer might be no but what difference does that make to pub discussion. I know where you're coming from.

Indeed. For now the issue is in deadlock. There's a chance of movement, but it's a slim one. It's likely that any resolution which could be achieved will take quite some time. As a result, a number of strikes and other industrial action will be taking place in the short term. I really don't think a single person who has commented disagrees with that.

 

[theageofthetra]

What “efficiencies” are being forced on the public sector for their pay rises?

Exactly

 

[Wyrleybart]

Really? What has Whitehall got to do with Grand Central and Hull Trains? Or the decision by Virgin XC to order the Voyagers?

AIUI Whitehall stifled the ordering of voyager car quantities. Virgin XC at that time were operating mainly 7 car trains, either HST of LHCS. Replacing a HST or 7 coach LHCS formation with a 4 car voyager significantly reduced seats and required the Princess timetable of more trains to provide even the same level of seats, but with significantly more staff - without considering the sparks effect.

I find it difficult to believe VRG would have capped it's revenue so readily and understand it was Whitehall who wouldn't agree for the levels of investment to build all VOY as either 5 car let alone any 6 cars. Remember that OP Princess required 3 onboard staff on each unit, so that would be six on a double voyager compared to two on a roughly equivalently seated HST or LHCS. I have heard several people suggest it was Whitehall rather than VRG who blocked the investment in "proper" trains which has become the albatross of the XC franchise

OAOs are a different kettle of fish and it never ceases to amaze me how Grand Central Rail survives, although FHT seems somewhat more businesslike. Grand Central made a huge mistake by adopting a wholly 180 based fleet, as we experience on a near daily basis.

 

[Bald Rick]

Apologies it was based on a post that I had seen circulating on social media.

He actually took a pay cut down to £557k and it’s since rose back to £590k a 5.9% increase on his Covid-19 salary

or, put another way, a 0% increase on the salary he got when appointed to the job 4 years ago.

Much of that is down to poorly run franchises that failed to keep up training during Covid. Those like us at GA have flourished with traincrew & returned to normal very quickly indeed with no shortages now.

I’m afraid it wasn’t. It was entirely down to the relevant local ASLEF reps for each TOC, most of whom were not as accommodating about training during Covid as yours were when presented with the same proposals.

Also, GA was rather fortunate in having recruited and already trained lots of new drivers for trains that turned up late and fir services that will now never run, thereby having a lot more spare capacity in the driver establishment.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Indeed. For now the issue is in deadlock. There's a chance of movement, but it's a slim one. It's likely that any resolution which could be achieved will take quite some time. As a result, a number of strikes and other industrial action will be taking place in the short term. I really don't think a single person who has commented disagrees with that.

And so time to get around the table for re-negotiation. One or both sides will have to back down in some way. Which side holds the most cards?

 

[43074]

It's unlikely that any lines will close permanently, although a small number of little-used stations (e.g. Barrhill, Stranraer or Holton Heath, Pevensey Bay, Lake etc) could well end up losing their train service permanently. But many services have already been withdrawn permanently due to financial cutbacks and a lack of demand. There are lots of examples where services won't be returning for the foreseeable future.

Realistically closing a station like Pevensey Bay has a negligible effect on total costs to the industry, it is an unstaffed halt with trains which call there that would otherwise pass anyway, it's not as if the industry is providing units and crew solely to serve Pevensey Bay.

Barrhill and Stranraer are perhaps a different argument where Cairnryan has superceded Stranraer as the ferry terminal and an express coach could connect at Girvan. But implying there will be widespread closures is unrealistic, sure the timetable will be thinned into the long run but I'd expect more than that would be so politically unacceptable as to make it a non starter.

 

[Bald Rick]

But implying there will be widespread closures is unrealistic, sure the timetable will be thinned into the long run but I'd expect more than that would be so politically unacceptable as to make it a non starter.

I suppose the point is that if one party to the dispute is closing parts of the railway temporarily (potentially for progressively longer periods), then it becomes progressively easier for Government to justify closing parts of the railway for good.

I’m not saying it will happen, but it certainly can’t be ruled out. The strikes are certainly highlighting where the costs / revenue lie in the railway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's unlikely that any lines will close permanently, although a small number of little-used stations (e.g. Barrhill, Stranraer or Holton Heath, Pevensey Bay, Lake etc) could well end up losing their train service permanently.

With regards to Lake station, it was opened on 11th May 1987 and situated in a residential area in the Isle of Wight between Sandown and Shanklin, which makes that particular station somewhat different from those on the mainland.

 

[dk1]

The examples I've provided are because demand doesn't justify the return of these services. In all three cases the rolling stock is available to run them and if the government were willing to pay the crew would be there. However the demand is not (which is one reason why the government won't pay for the extra time for the crew to work them).

It’s so strange. All our regional routes are back up running in full & passengers on most of these have been well over 100% of pre-Covid. Full traincrew establishments of course have to be maintained hence the continuous successful training courses for drivers & conductors.

It was the mention of Cross Country & Northern that gave me the feeling of despair.

 

[Starmill]

Realistically closing a station like Pevensey Bay has a negligible effect on total costs to the industry, it is an unstaffed halt with trains which call there that would otherwise pass anyway, it's not as if the industry is providing units and crew solely to serve Pevensey Bay.

Barrhill and Stranraer are perhaps a different argument where Cairnryan has superceded Stranraer as the ferry terminal and an express coach could connect at Girvan. But implying there will be widespread closures is unrealistic, sure the timetable will be thinned into the long run but I'd expect more than that would be so politically unacceptable as to make it a non starter.

No, but as I keep saying, units and crew have been saved by permanently withdrawing a number of services, such as the second Buxton train per hour or the semi-fast ScotRail service between Edinburgh and Dundee. These have been cut to save money because they were poorly used and it costs a lot to provide a unit and crew for them. It's unlikely that they will be restored any time soon, despite the fact that doing so is technically feasible and rolling stock will be available. Closing Holton Heath and Pevensey Bay is more of an efficiency measure than a cost saving one, in that it will improve some journey times marginally while disadvantaging almost nobody. The point is that cuts are already the reality in lots of places, some of them permanent. It's not a big jump to suggest that Stranraer might go.

 

[dk1]

Also, GA was rather fortunate in having recruited and already trained lots of new drivers for trains that turned up late and fir services that will now never run, thereby having a lot more spare capacity in the driver establishment.

During the latter half of 2021 GA actually managed to pass out a record number of drivers which I was very pleased to be a part of by entering into training bubbles. Excellent ASLEF cooperation helped with this too.

 

[Bald Rick]

Excellent ASLEF cooperation helped with this too.

indeed so. If only they had been as cooperative elsewhere.

 

[306024]

Also, GA was rather fortunate in having recruited and already trained lots of new drivers for trains that turned up late and fir services that will now never run, thereby having a lot more spare capacity in the driver establishment.

Or to put it another way depots were deliberately over established to cope with the training program. On the other side of the coin many drivers also retired around the same time, either simply due to the age profile, or not interested in learning all the new technology. But yes, also having sensible ASLEF reps is a big help.

Peoplepower planning (manpower planning to be politically incorrect) is something you have to keep constantly on top of. Taking your eye off the ball for just one month can lead to trouble 12 months later. It helps that GA’s traincrew management responsible for this hasn’t changed for years. Continuity in any role is a big benefit.

 

[Nova1]

No WMR services again on the snow hill lines on the 27th July, and no service at all on any WMR route on the 30th July

 

[dk1]

indeed so. If only they had been as cooperative elsewhere.

Yes I agree. It’s such a pity as many trainees had left jobs & left in limbo on furlough when there really was no need. It was all done very safely & totally at the trainee/DIs discretion.

 

[Bald Rick]

No WMR services again on the snow hill lines on the 27th July, and no service at all on any WMR route on the 30th July

I understand there is at least one WMT route with a service on 30th. I guess we’ll see when the timetable is published.

 

[Nova1]

I understand there is at least one WMT route with a service on 30th. I guess we’ll see when the timetable is published.

 

[Fred26]

Xxxx

 

[Bantamzen]

Exactly

Exactly this kind of efficiency for example?

Boris Johnson wants to cut up to 91,000 civil service jobs

Boris Johnson's plan to save money aims to see staffing return to 2016 levels within three years.

www.bbc.co.uk

The government wants to cut up to 91,000 civil service jobs to save money, the UK's top civil servant says.
The aim is to return to 2016 staffing levels within three years, Cabinet Secretary Simon Case said in a letter to civil servants seen by the BBC.
Downing Street said it had not ruled out a recruitment freeze or compulsory redundancies as part of planned cuts.
A civil service union said the plan was "ill thought-out" and added strike action was "very much on the table".
Mr Case, in the letter to civil servants on Thursday night, acknowledged the job cuts would be "challenging" and that civil service staffing had grown "substantially" since 2016, partly because of the pandemic.
"We must consider how we can streamline our workforce and equip ourselves with the skills we need to be an even more effective, lean and innovative service that continues to deliver for the people we serve," he wrote.

And this is probably just the start. If you believe even for a second that the public sector isn't constantly under pressure to improve and become way more efficient then you probably need to spend a bit more paying attention to the world outside the railway bubble.

 

[Horizon22]

I’m not completely sure if this is related to the dispute in terms of morale/staffing but over the last 6 months I’ve stopped more overrunning engineering works in the mornings than previous years. Is this related with regards the maintenance dispute or pure coincidence?

 

[43066]

regarding staff losing money you said " ultimately a few hundred pounds here or there is little in the grand scheme of things" you must be on a good wage to say that...

My earnings are irrelevant to the point I was making - you’ll notice my comment was also agreed with by another member of staff.

You’re no doubt blissfully unaware of the current situation but many members of current rail staff, including very modestly paid ones, feel the need to take action now to stave off long term erosion of their pay and Ts and Cs. Does the phrase “short term pain for long term gain” mean anything to you?

If you really did thirty years on the railway, did you never take part in industrial action yourself? Perhaps you were one of those who were happy to take the perks but looks down your nose at those fighting to defend them?

Yes i'm ex railstaff and the "beneficial Ts&Cs i'm now enjoying", are staff travel cards, which i recieved in lieu of monetary content in wage negotiations,

And a decent pension, and a job you said you did for decades, which has presumably set you up for retirement?

Staff fighting for their livelihoods, then re my comment above about "a few hundred pounds",

As I said, the staff I know fully agree with the sentiment I expressed. Trust me you’re in no position to know better than they.

What did you do on the railway yourself, out of interest? Maybe some of your current colleagues still working in the industry can give you some direct feedback on your views on their approach to taking industrial action.

your comments about passengers, ie i don't really care whether you continue to use the railway or not... you'd be a real laugh behind the counter, even a role model.
"Strewth" was my exasperation at the comments you've been making as per above...

Thanks very much for your feedback on my customer service skills. Duly noted. I must ask, has it escaped your notice that this is an anonymous Internet discussion forum? I’m on here to discuss railways in general and, on this particular thread, my views on railway industrial disputes. If you want “customer service” I suggest you go to Twitter.

Doesn't matter what you think.....I work in the industry and you don't. Which puts me in a much better position to actually understand what's going on. Clearly some of the internal stuff isn't available to you. Which of course it would be should you actually manage to gain employment in the industry. Give it a go.....

This attitude of “people who expect customers to come back shouldn’t work in the industry” of course comes from people who have an axe to grind and *wish* passengers wouldn’t return! It is a simple reality that railway passengers have come back after every strike ever. It’s intriguing how much that simple statement of reality irritates some on here.

They’re also continuing to come back after Covid. I’ve just passed through a thronging London Bridge. I guess I must have imagined the hoards of people piling on and off full and standing thameslink trains. After all we know from this forum the railway is busily carting around fresh air and needs to close. .

I’m afraid it wasn’t. It was entirely down to the relevant local ASLEF reps for each TOC, most of whom were not as accommodating about training during Covid as yours were when presented with the same proposals.

Yes I agree. It’s such a pity as many trainees had left jobs & left in limbo on furlough when there really was no need. It was all done very safely & totally at the trainee/DIs discretion.

I’m the *last* person to defend OTT Covid nonsense. However it strikes me as completely wrong to single out the railway unions for behaving in the same way as every single other union, and indeed merely acting in accordance with government advice. The railway unions were at least happy to keep the service running unlike (say) the teaching unions who seemed to spend most of the pandemic calling for schools closures.

 

[dk1]

This attitude of “people who expect customers to come back shouldn’t work in the industry” of course comes from people who have an axe to grind and *wish* passengers wouldn’t return! It is a simple reality that railway passengers have come back after every strike ever. It’s intriguing how much that simple statement of reality irritates some on here.

They’re also continuing to come back after Covid. I’ve just passed through a thronging London Bridge. I guess I must have imagined the hoards of people piling on and off full and standing thameslink trains. After all we know from this forum the railway is busily carting around fresh air and needs to close. .

Apart from previous strikes & the like, I always think of the aftermath of Hatfield in 2000. Month upon month of a decimated long distance train service across the entire UK with hundreds of miles of 20mph running due to GCC. A few decent advertising campaigns & some eye catching offers soon had the public back on board in their droves & numbers along with revenue soon went back into growth again.

 

[Roast Veg]

Barrhill and Stranraer are perhaps a different argument where Cairnryan has superceded Stranraer as the ferry terminal and an express coach could connect at Girvan.

The existing advertised coach starts from Ayr. No reason for that to change.

 

[sonic2009]

So does this mean with additional union's announcing strikes that we could see less services - hoping to get to Bromsgrove from Crewe on the Thursday 18th and back on the Saturday 20th ( Bromsgrove is the nearest I can get for Malvern). I don't wish to travel but I don't drive and have my sister's wedding.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So does this mean with additional union's announcing strikes that we could see less services - hoping to get to Bromsgrove from Crewe on the Thursday 18th and back on the Saturday 20th ( Bromsgrove is the nearest I can get for Malvern). I don't wish to travel but I don't drive and have my sister's wedding.

Yes, there will be less services or no services at all. Check the strike timetable for the relevant TOC

 

[kristiang85]

Whilst previous strikes might not have affected passengers' habits of using the railways, this is a bit different now. If there are many strikes, then commuters mostly have the infrastructure to work from home now, employers will get ever more used to it, and when the likely 10% ticket price rises for next year are announced, many will just not see the price Vs reliability as worth it, and will likely not go back to regular commuting.

Leisure travellers might be less affected, granted. But the backbone of many lines is commuting, and right now I know many who are just bothering less and less due to the poor reliability, and strikes only add to that.

 

[dk1]

So does this mean with additional union's announcing strikes that we could see less services - hoping to get to Bromsgrove from Crewe on the Thursday 18th and back on the Saturday 20th ( Bromsgrove is the nearest I can get for Malvern). I don't wish to travel but I don't drive and have my sister's wedding.

You couldn’t have picked worse travel dates if you tried mate. Can she not move the wedding? lol

 

[sonic2009]

Yes, there will be less services or no services at all. Check the strike timetable for the relevant TOC

It's either West Midlands Trains so either LNWR Crewe-Birmingham and WMT to Bromsgrove - or Avanti to Birmingham and WMT. What i'm confused about is all the differing unions etc - as I thought it was just the RMT calling the strike, so does this means TSSA staff worked on strike days?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2022 ==

You couldn’t have picked worse travel dates if you tried mate. Can she not move the wedding? lol

haha I wish she could - i've got back up plans just incase - i'm off to Bristol for the stag night this Friday, chose to avoid using the train back this Saturday so using Nat Ex.