Avanti and their current problems. What could be done to improve things?

[Halwynd]

Avanti management really have got themselves into a pickle... Last Saturday I found it impossible to purchase a ticket for a very short journey using Northern and Avanti services without running the risk of a Penalty Fare. Like others no doubt, I live in an area where my TOCs are Avanti, TPE and Northern and the current state of affairs is dreadful. Last Saturday I foolishly considered making a rail journey. A broken Northern ticket machine (same machine - second time in three weeks) and, presumably, Avanti's unwillingness to offer me any sort of e-Ticket whatsoever for a simple £9.80 walk-up fare forced me to drive. In over 40 years of travelling by train I have never known things to be as 'anti-passenger' as they are today.

I too suspect Phil Whittingham is already a dead man walking. If he has authorised the sort of comments about staff as quoted above, then either he is feeling the pressure and not thinking clearly, or his operational management skills leave a lot to be desired. If he hasn't authorised the comments then his general management of procedure and discipline within the business must also be poor. Once you lose the confidence and respect of your staff it is very hard to regain it.

British Rail wasn't perfect but blimey, they were infinitely better than the railway we have today.

 

[DarloRich]

Working your contracted hours is not unoffical industrial action despite what the avanti md might wish

 

[800001]

Avanti management really have got themselves into a pickle... Last Saturday I found it impossible to purchase a ticket for a very short journey using Northern and Avanti services without running the risk of a Penalty Fare. Like others no doubt, I live in an area where my TOCs are Avanti, TPE and Northern and the current state of affairs is dreadful. Last Saturday I foolishly considered making a rail journey. A broken Northern ticket machine (same machine - second time in three weeks) and, presumably, Avanti's unwillingness to offer me any sort of e-Ticket whatsoever for a simple £9.80 walk-up fare forced me to drive. In over 40 years of travelling by train I have never known things to be as 'anti-passenger' as they are today.

I too suspect Phil Whittingham is already a dead man walking. If he has authorised the sort of comments about staff as quoted above, then either he is feeling the pressure and not thinking clearly, or his operational management skills leave a lot to be desired. If he hasn't authorised the comments then his general management of procedure and discipline within the business must also be poor.

British Rail wasn't perfect but blimey, they were infinitely better than the railway we have today.

He has stated in an internal email to staff that it was him who authorised the tweet the other day about unofficial strike action.

 

[Amos]

Are they still spouting that "unofficial strike action" line?

Was reported on the radio 2 news sometime this afternoon that “avanti are proposing a reduced service due to their drivers refusing to work overtime”.

 

[DarloRich]

It seems to be getting worse by the day.

Not only is there no certainty over which trains will run, it is impossible to buy a ticket (on line at least) for those services that are allegedly running.

The issue will no doubt be raised in parliament next month, when MPs for constituencies along the West Coast Main Line try and travel to and from London and notice just how bad the service is.

You are right though.

There comes a point when a relationship has broken down to such an extent that it is no longer possible for that relationship to continue.

In a marriage that would lead to separation or divorce, but with Avanti having a new management is a prerequisite to negotiating a solution.

With a new management team in place, I would like to see ACAS facilitate a meeting between management and unions to work out a solution to this dispute.

I would like to think that both sides would be realistic about what can be achieved, and are prepared to compromise.

In an ideal world you would be correct. The problem is that the TOC management arent calling the shots. Your man Shapps is.

Perhaps your wcml based mps (like mine) will get their top tory chums to release the handbrake a bit.

He who pays the piper and all that

 

[Failed Unit]

Was reported on the radio 2 news sometime this afternoon that “avanti are proposing a reduced service due to their drivers refusing to work overtime”.

Be interesting what the Great British public thinks of that, I was told when I first started work not to rely on overtime as it could be withdrawn at short notice and if you can't afford to live without it you have a problem (I know sadly many can't not) - However that statement works both ways and if the employer should only really be relying on overtime in special events not to run the basic service. I hope the majority of the public are not feeling too sorry for Avanti.

In an ideal world you would be correct. The problem is that the TOC management arent calling the shots. Your man Shapps is.

Perhaps your wcml based mps (like mine) will get their top tory chums to release the handbrake a bit.

He who pays the piper and all that

If you have ever tried to travel GTR on Saturday, he doesn't care. His home station is cut off by successive cancellations. But if he isn't using the train himself he will never know.

 

[Moonshot]

Was reported on the radio 2 news sometime this afternoon that “avanti are proposing a reduced service due to their drivers refusing to work overtime”.

Yes .....that's correct. Action short of a strike. Add in the days when no trains will run at all as well......ie official strike days.

 

[Halwynd]

He has stated in an internal email to staff that it was him who authorised the tweet the other day about unofficial strike action

Blimey. Not quite Gerald Ratner's 'total crap', but the destiny for Whittingham will eventually now be the same.

 

[Efini92]

Yes .....that's correct. Action short of a strike. Add in the days when no trains will run at all as well......ie official strike days.

No just drivers having their days off. No unofficial or official action.

 

[nuneatonmark]

To all train drivers who support strike action or not working your rest days. I am sure you're going to get a nice pay rise out of this but please don't come on forums like this in a year or two complaining about being made redundant because passengers have stayed away and there's no need to employ you anymore. I'd rather see a properly resourced railway, no need to work rest days and a fair salary (which I believe you've probably already got, do tell us) but I suspect neither unions or management have the sense to go there. They'd rather blame each other.

 

[Bantamzen]

I merely said the defence had been used before!

And I'm sure you would have been one to criticise it's overuse!

I just find it interesting that you were quick to criticise me for “having a pop” at the poor darlings on their social media team, but don’t seem remotely bothered about a TOC publically naming and shaming its own workforce in relation to allegations of “unofficial industrial action”.

Read the bit where I say if the allegations have no substance, then the union should take legal action. Come on mate, keep up!!

Seriously though, I would be interested to hear from someone within the union, or it's membership say 100% that nothing like that which Avanti are alleging is occurring off radar as it were.

How’s that relevant to a discussion about a TOC making false allegations of “unofficial” industrial action?

You brought up the subject of risk to staff. Nothing agitates people more than a service falling apart at the seams, including strikes. I know the official TUC line is that the entire population are busy banging pots on Thursday nights in support of the industrial action, but its really not that black and white. The great British public's patience will only stretch too far, and a few more "train drivers on £50K+ want inflation busting* pay rise" headlines and lots will turn against the strike.

*And before you say, yes I know the expectation of some is not that, but I'm talking newspaper headlines here

People who are inconvenienced by strikes might not like it, but they generally understand that due processes are followed and the dates are published in advance. This accusation that staff are acting in bad faith to damage the service on an ongoing basis is a great deal more provocative.

They really don't. I'm afraid you faith in the public nodding in agreement with the strikes and all its growing dramas when they find out all their trains home are cancelled because of "a lack of train crew" is totally misplaced. People panic and get angry when the local Co-op runs out of bread, how do you think ever growing rounds of action will be received, especially when the nice weather turns back to being British?

It could very well backfire. Even the stupidest Mail readers can probably work out that: “our staff won’t work overtime therefore your train is cancelled sorry-not-sorry” actually means “we don’t employ enough staff to run the service”!

Or the readers could say "they are whinging about pay rises but won't work any bloody overtime to earn it, on their wages".

Swings, roundabouts, etc...

 

[DarloRich]

To all train drivers who support strike action or not working your rest days. I am sure you're going to get a nice pay rise out of this but please don't come on forums like this in a year or two complaining about being made redundant because passengers have stayed away and there's no need to employ you anymore. I'd rather see a properly resourced railway, no need to work rest days and a fair salary (which I believe you've probably already got, do tell us) but I suspect neither unions or management have the sense to go there. They'd rather blame each other.

I would rather you understood who was calling the shots here.

From what i understand aslef want full establishments. I bet the TOC want the same.

Who is stopping the deal? Thats right, your man Shapps and his chums.

 

[dk1]

To all train drivers who support strike action or not working your rest days. I am sure you're going to get a nice pay rise out of this but please don't come on forums like this in a year or two complaining about being made redundant because passengers have stayed away and there's no need to employ you anymore. I'd rather see a properly resourced railway, no need to work rest days and a fair salary (which I believe you've probably already got, do tell us) but I suspect neither unions or management have the sense to go there. They'd rather blame each other.

No drivers will be made redundant. That I can confidently say.

 

[Moonshot]

No just drivers having their days off. No unofficial or official action.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but whenever a dispute situation occurs , a default position is the withdrawal of goodwill in working rest days.

 

[Moonshot]

No drivers will be made redundant. That I can confidently say.

A quote from Mick Whelan the other week was that he is aware of 2000 ASLEF members who would actually take a VS package if offered

 

[mandub]

Seriously though, I would be interested to hear from someone within the union, or it's membership say 100% that nothing like that which Avanti are alleging is occurring off radar as it were.

I don't work for Avanti but at my depot there wouldn't be any need for Aslef to say or suggest anything to any drivers re not working rest days.
People in the messroom discuss it themselves and given the 90%+ vote at Avanti it's clear what the majority would think about 'helping the company out'

 

[Efini92]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but whenever a dispute situation occurs , a default position is the withdrawal of goodwill in working rest days.

You’re wrong. Rest day working hasn’t been withdrawn. Drivers are free to work their rest days, there is still some that are. Most are choosing not to after being accused of “unofficial strike action” and who could blame them?

 

[dk1]

A quote from Mick Whelan the other week was that he is aware of 2000 ASLEF members who would actually take a VS package if offered

Oh yes I can more than vouch for that. What I meant was though that any redundancies will be entirely voluntary. Trouble is we are never lucky enough to be offered the chance of VS which is bloody annoying.

 

[Moonshot]

Oh yes I can more than vouch for that. What I meant was though that any redundancies will be entirely voluntary. Trouble is we are never lucky enough to be offered the chance of VS which is bloody annoying.

I suspect that may well change. One to keep an eye on

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't work for Avanti but at my depot there wouldn't be any need for Aslef to say or suggest anything to any drivers re not working rest days.
People in the messroom discuss it themselves and given the 90%+ vote at Avanti it's clear what the majority would think about 'helping the company out'

And maybe that's what is happening then, I'm not going to comment on the legal position as to the legality of it under current legislation. But is this being seen as the "unofficial action" by the management? If so the union need to make the position very clear, stick to what they say is part of what was balloted for. This government is itching to get at the unions, and what might seem to staff as just agreeing between themselves unofficially might be seen very differently elsewhere.

 

[dk1]

I suspect that may well change. One to keep an eye on

Oh yes I (& many others) certainly will but we have more chance of scooping big on Premium Bonds or Lotto in my personal opinion. Hope you’re right though.

 

[Moonshot]

You’re wrong. Rest day working hasn’t been withdrawn. Drivers are free to work their rest days, there is still some that are. Most are choosing not to after being accused of “unofficial strike action” and who could blame them?

No I'm not wrong. I simply said there has been a withdrawal of goodwill. RDW agreement may well be in place. Which ASLEF are perfectly entitled to withdraw from. But they haven't.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No drivers will be made redundant. That I can confidently say.

The BBC piece on the Avanti situation says there are 250 drivers in training.
That seems to address the basic problem (assuming current drivers don't leave).

 

[Efini92]

No I'm not wrong. I simply said there has been a withdrawal of goodwill. RDW agreement may well be in place. Which ASLEF are perfectly entitled to withdraw from. But they haven't.

You’re claiming it’s action short of strike, which it isn’t. For it to be action short of strike ASLEF would have to announce it.
As an ASLEF member yourself, id though you would’ve understood that.

 

[Moonshot]

The BBC piece on the Avanti situation says there are 250 drivers in training.
That seems to address the basic problem (assuming current drivers don't leave).

That's a significant number of trainee drivers. In fact it would seem to me that sort of number would actually overwhelm the training department.

 

[Moonshot]

You’re claiming it’s action short of strike, which it isn’t. For it to be action short of strike ASLEF would have to announce it.
As an ASLEF member yourself, id though you would’ve understood that.

My understanding is that ASLEF have. Strike action this weekend?

 

[dk1]

The BBC piece on the Avanti situation says there are 250 drivers in training.
That seems to address the basic problem (assuming current drivers don't leave).

How on earth did they let it get into anywhere near that state? I understand a shed load of drivers decided to take early retirement but still. Shocking really.

 

[Efini92]

My understanding is that ASLEF have. Strike action this weekend?

Strike action yes.
Action short of strike hasn’t had any announcement.

 

[Moonshot]

How on earth did they let it get into anywhere near that state? I understand a shed load of drivers decided to take early retirement but still. Shocking really.

In any event, assuming the piece is correct, that would mean that once all those 250 drivers have passed out, Avanti could actually run the service they had been doing prior to all the current issues without actually relying on overtime. That would seem to be a win win all round situation to me.

 

[dk1]

In any event, assuming the piece is correct, that would mean that once all those 250 drivers have passed out, Avanti could actually run the service they had been doing prior to all the current issues without actually relying on overtime. That would seem to be a win win all round situation to me.

They’ll always be overtime.