Avanti and their current problems. What could be done to improve things?

[43066]

And also the staff not wanting to work overtime!


From 14 August until further notice, we will be introducing a reduced timetable on our services. This is due to the current industrial relations climate which has resulted in severe staff shortages in some grades through increased sickness levels, as well as unofficial strike action by ASLEF members.

As a result of the above, including the majority of drivers declaring themselves unavailable for overtime, our customers have faced multiple short-notice cancellations on our network which has had a severe impact on their plans.

Pretty vile to blame this on staff who are then likely to be at risk of assault. Perhaps some of the Twitter team should go and stand on the concourse at Euston and tell the passengers face to face what’s going on.

If I worked for Avanti I wouldn’t be doing any rest days and I certainly wouldn’t be turning a wheel beyond what was specified in my diagrams to “help out”.

I have two days this week where I’m not rostered to be at work. I’m going to spend them actually, you know, not working. I suppose that means I’m “unofficially on strike”. The railway can be a truly horrible industry to work in, at times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wow. I wonder how long he's going to last in role?

I don't doubt that there's a level of informal co-ordination, but it's still not strike action/industrial action, official or otherwise.

How can I when I won't be able to get on Euston until everyone else can

Use Realtime Trains cross-referenced with the arrival display to find out where the train is so you can stand by the doors ready to board (beware that the RTT platform can't be trusted until it "goes bold" and shows "at platform").

and I've idea when they let you on at Crewe

When the doors are released. You can queue by them from as soon as the unit arrives (again, check Realtime Trains to see when/where that is).

And even sitting on a train jammed with people doesn't sound like much fun. What I'm used to is travelling in a relaxed quiet environment in First on what was at the time Virgin, having my pick of hourly direct trains. Now it just seems like waaay too much hassle.

If First Class is your norm, then yes, to be fair LNR is going to be a downgrade.

 

[Bantamzen]

Pretty vile to blame this on staff who are then likely to be at risk of assault. Perhaps some of the Twitter team should go and stand on the concourse at Euston and tell the passengers face to face what’s going on.

If I worked for Avanti I wouldn’t be doing any rest days and I certainly wouldn’t be turning a wheel beyond what was specified in my diagrams to “help out”.

I have two days this week where I’m not rostered to be at work. I’m going to spend them actually, you know, not working. I suppose that means I’m “unofficially on strike”. The railway can be a truly horrible industry to work in, at times.

The Twitter team will probably just be a small bunch of fairly low paid contact centre workers, they won't be in a position to refuse to do what the management have told them to do. Its hardly fair to have a pop at them, any more than it is to have a pop at someone printing social distancing stickers for the covid-farse.

As for the allegation that there is a co-ordinated action behind this by the union, well if ASLEF haven't been encouraging practices outside the scope of the ballot they have nothing to worry about. They could choose to take legal action, and maybe should. However it is not unheard of unions going beyond the scope of a ballot, maybe a member at Avanti has a better idea of what is going on?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Pretty vile to blame this on staff who are then likely to be at risk of assault. Perhaps some of the Twitter team should go and stand on the concourse at Euston and tell the passengers face to face what’s going on.

If I worked for Avanti I wouldn’t be doing any rest days and I certainly wouldn’t be turning a wheel beyond what was specified in my diagrams to “help out”.

I strongly agree. Let's see how Phil Whittingham would cope on the concourse/platforms at London Euston etc. dealing with not only the usual customer complaints- but also "feedback" from colleagues reacting to his comments!

 

[455refurb]

Phil Whittingham would do well to note that the last MD of a TOC embroiled in a lengthy and toxic industrial dispute (Charles Horton of GTR) is now a geography teacher.

Have they cut enough? Having read that internal note I'd be surprised if they can even deliver that. If I worked for Avanti I'd be looking elsewhere and the resourcing issues are only going to get worse.

 

[43066]

The Twitter team will probably just be a small bunch of fairly low paid contact centre workers, they won't be in a position to refuse to do what the management have told them to do. Its hardly fair to have a pop at them, any more than it is to have a pop at someone printing social distancing stickers for the covid-farse.

“We were just following orders” has been used a defence before... I should have said *and management*. As I say, it’s easy to make statements like this from the comfort of an air conditioned office.

As for the allegation that there is a co-ordinated action behind this by the union, well if ASLEF haven't been encouraging practices outside the scope of the ballot they have nothing to worry about. They could choose to take legal action, and maybe should. However it is not unheard of unions going beyond the scope of a ballot, maybe a member at Avanti has a better idea of what is going on?

Surely it should be for the company to prove the allegation rather than for the union to prove a negative. Going to court also costs money… Something Avanti have rather more of than ASLEF.

As for “nothing to worry about” you must have missed the bit where I mentioned the risk of staff assaults .

ASLEF should certainly be reminding their members to exercise their right to remove themselves from threatening situations and not to drive trains if on the receiving end of abuse.

 

[Bantamzen]

“We were just following orders” has been used a defence before... I should have said *and management*. As I say, it’s easy to make statements like this from the comfort of an air conditioned office.

Come on get a grip, we're talking about a bunch of social media office workers, not an army intent on world domination!!

Surely it should be for the company to prove the allegation rather than for the union to prove a negative. Going to court also costs money… Something Avanti have rather more of than ASLEF.

Its, and I don't believe I suggested otherwise.

As for “nothing to worry about” you must have missed the bit where I mentioned the risk of staff assaults .

I didn't, but don't you think people unable to travel because union members are striking is all the more likely?

ASLEF should certainly be reminding their members to exercise their right to remove themselves from threatening situations and not to drive trains if on the receiving end of abuse.

They indeed can.

 

[irish_rail]

Can just see the daily mail reading Gammons turning redder as I write this

"how dare those lazy train drivers not work all their days off so that I can enjoy mine!"

 

[Failed Unit]

Here is what’s had been sent to staff today

under instruction from Grant Shapps I suspect - This won't end well, even for LNER who are going to have some seriously overcrowded services with people looking East. Unless I needed the moment, no-way would I work anything extra after seeing that. If I lived close to another company recruiting they would have my CV. I suspect things will get worse.

 

[muz379]

Here is what’s had been sent to staff today

I cant see paranoid accusations like this doing anything for employee relations

 

[Sputnik89]

Phil Whittingham making the mistake of many an out-of-their-depth manager in many industries (including my own) and acting the macho big-man when confronted with something outside his plans and models.

Will all end in tears (and a big payoff, no doubt).

Edit: Spelling/Autocorrect

 

[Bletchleyite]

Phil Whittingham making the mistake of many an out-of-their-depth manager in many industries (including my own) and acting the macho big-man when confronted with something outside his plans and models.

Will all end in tears (and a big payoff, no doubt).

Edit: Spelling/Autocorrect

I can't see him staying in his role for very long now. His presence now basically makes negotiation of a settlement impossible.

 

[Moonshot]

I can't see him staying in his role for very long now. His presence now basically makes negotiation of a settlement impossible.

What exactly actually needs negotiation to a settlement?

 

[duncanp]

I can't see him staying in his role for very long now. His presence now basically makes negotiation of a settlement impossible.

It seems to be getting worse by the day.

Not only is there no certainty over which trains will run, it is impossible to buy a ticket (on line at least) for those services that are allegedly running.

The issue will no doubt be raised in parliament next month, when MPs for constituencies along the West Coast Main Line try and travel to and from London and notice just how bad the service is.

You are right though.

There comes a point when a relationship has broken down to such an extent that it is no longer possible for that relationship to continue.

In a marriage that would lead to separation or divorce, but with Avanti having a new management is a prerequisite to negotiating a solution.

With a new management team in place, I would like to see ACAS facilitate a meeting between management and unions to work out a solution to this dispute.

I would like to think that both sides would be realistic about what can be achieved, and are prepared to compromise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What exactly actually needs negotiation to a settlement?

Isn't there a pay-and-conditions dispute ongoing? I've lost track about what TOC is striking about what.

 

[Carlisle]

I can't see him staying in his role for very long now. His presence now basically makes negotiation of a settlement impossible.

Trans Pennine got rid of their manager 3 years ago, have things improved ? I think you’ll find the rail industry’s problems are far deeper .

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is the Avanti "negotiation" in any different position from that of the other TOCs in the wider Aslef dispute?
It's very difficult to judge what is going on behind the scenes.

 

[dk1]

Isn't there a pay-and-conditions dispute ongoing? I've lost track about what TOC is striking about what.

Avanti where late in joining the pay dispute but things seem to be deeper with this TOC.

 

[Moonshot]

Isn't there a pay-and-conditions dispute ongoing? I've lost track about what TOC is striking about what.

If there is, it's hardly unofficial strike action if drivers are refusing to work rest days......as one part of the ballot is a reference to action short of a strike. Which generally means no overtime

 

[Carlisle]

If there is, it's hardly unofficial strike action if drivers are refusing to work rest days......as one part of the ballot is a reference to action short of a strike. Which generally means no overtime

Indeed, but it has to be declared officially 14 days prior to commencing

 

[DelW]

It seems to be getting worse by the day.

Not only is there no certainty over which trains will run, it is impossible to buy a ticket (on line at least) for those services that are allegedly running.

Which is one of the arguments I'd use against the "everyone should use e-tickets" brigade who advocate closing ticket offices and removing TVMs. While those are still around, they can still sell walk-up tickets, allowing travel on the "no reservations left" trains, which may be far from full in reality.

 

[Trainbike46]

Which is one of the arguments I'd use against the "everyone should use e-tickets" brigade who advocate closing ticket offices and removing TVMs. While those are still around, they can still sell walk-up tickets, allowing travel on the "no reservations left" trains, which may be far from full in reality.

If I understand the situation correctly, Avanti ticket machines won't sell tickets without an itinerary, so they won't sell tickets for any train coming up as sold out online.

 

[duncanp]

If I understand the situation correctly, Avanti ticket machines won't sell tickets without an itinerary, so they won't sell tickets for any train coming up as sold out online.

This is true, even if your journey is not on Avanti services, as I found out when trying to use one of the new ones at Birmingham New Street to buy a day return to Church Stretton.

The machine gives the impression that you have to use the selected train.

And don't get me started on unresponsive touch screens.

 

[DelW]

If I understand the situation correctly, Avanti ticket machines won't sell tickets without an itinerary, so they won't sell tickets for any train coming up as sold out online.

Ouch, that makes it even worse if so (the machines I occasionally use don't require an itinerary).

 

[Howardh]

No doubt this will already have been posted here (I'm not looking back because Avanti just make my blood boil) but what it means to me,a mere customer, is we won't know the times of the trains in advance, if any cheap advances exist we probably won't get them, and this is also in the middle of the holiday season where folks have worked darned hard for a day or two off.

Rail Strike Travel Information 2024 | Disruptions & Refunds | Trainline

Read the latest information on the upcoming rail strikes in the UK. Find information on rearranging or refunding your trip here.

www.thetrainline.com

From 14th August 2022, Avanti West Coast will be running an amended timetable until further notice. While the new timetable is being finalised, Avanti West Coast have temporarily suspended ticket sales and closed reservations from 14th August to 11th September 2022.

• For customers booked to travel from 14th August onwards, if your train is cancelled, you can travel on a service before or after your original booked train
• If you no longer wish to travel due to the amended timetable, you can claim a full fee-free refund
• The timetables for this period will be released a week at a time
• Every hour, four trains will run from London Euston, to Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham
• Trains will run from London to Edinburgh every two hours

if Avanti can't run a service then - yet again - I plea for their franchise to be stripped and the trains given to Northern or LWM. Will it be any better by September? December?

Also notice that flights Manchester - London start at over £200 one-way next week. Fed up to the back teeth of it all. But then again I'm only a customer/passenger/voter/taxpayer/mug.

 

[Failed Unit]

Also notice that flights Manchester - London start at over £200 one-way next week. Fed up to the back teeth of it all. But then again I'm only a customer/passenger/voter/taxpayer/mug.

They are very lucky Heathrow is full and BA can't see tickets either.

 

[CAF397]

Our very own Transport Minister said he would stop staff working overtime to top up wages after losing money due to taking strike action.

They really can't then complain that those staff are not working overtime. I know Avanti ASLEaf members haven't yet taken strike action, but their TMs have.

 

[Taunton]

Companies cannot expect staff to work beyond their contracted hours.

But they do. I'm contracted for a theoretical number of hours per day, but as the job involves much travel, I just do that as well. If something goes wrong, you stay over. There is also a two-way street, where if I say not a certain Wednesday evening because it's a wedding anniversary or whatever, that is respected too.

The whole idea of contracted hours came from the other end, from a guaranteed minimum (it used to be known as the 'guaranteed week'), that if you did 4 hours and there was nothing else, you were sent home with 4 hours pay. That ended with a guarantee of 8 hours a day, and five days a week.

 

[43066]

Come on get a grip, we're talking about a bunch of social media office workers, not an army intent on world domination!!

I merely said the defence had been used before!

Its, and I don't believe I suggested otherwise.

I just find it interesting that you were quick to criticise me for “having a pop” at the poor darlings on their social media team, but don’t seem remotely bothered about a TOC publically naming and shaming its own workforce in relation to allegations of “unofficial industrial action”.

I didn't, but don't you think people unable to travel because union members are striking is all the more likely?

How’s that relevant to a discussion about a TOC making false allegations of “unofficial” industrial action?

People who are inconvenienced by strikes might not like it, but they generally understand that due processes are followed and the dates are published in advance. This accusation that staff are acting in bad faith to damage the service on an ongoing basis is a great deal more provocative.

Can just see the daily mail reading Gammons turning redder as I write this

"how dare those lazy train drivers not work all their days off so that I can enjoy mine!"

It could very well backfire. Even the stupidest Mail readers can probably work out that: “our staff won’t work overtime therefore your train is cancelled sorry-not-sorry” actually means “we don’t employ enough staff to run the service”!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

if Avanti can't run a service then - yet again - I plea for their franchise to be stripped and the trains given to Northern or LWM. Will it be any better by September? December?

Avanti doesn't have a franchise, like most TOCs they have a short-term ERMA (Emergency Recovery Measures Agreement) which is tightly specified by the DfT.
This expires in October, when it is expected to be replaced by a National Rail Contract.
This was rumoured to be for up to 10 years to cover the period up to the start-up of HS2, which they would then operate as well as the WCML.
It remains to be seen if First-Trenitalia are awarded such a contract.

It also isn't clear what would change if a new management was installed, or the operation was taken over by OLR.
The underlying issues will remain unless DfT changes its contract specification.