'Polygraph' kit deployed to Northern barriers to detect 'chancers'

[johntea]

Just seen this article across various local rag websites, I'm still not quite sure if I understand what they've actually changed though! Surely the barriers indicated a railcard or child ticket in some way previously

The rail ticket ‘polygraph’: Northern deploys new kit to detect ‘chancers’ using the wrong ticket at station barriers

Automated ticket checks at barriers in Northern-managed stations are about to get smarter thanks to new technology that will alert staff to potential ‘chancers’ using an incorrect ticket.

www.wakefieldexpress.co.uk

The rail ticket ‘polygraph’: Northern deploys new kit to detect ‘chancers’ using the wrong ticket at station barriers
Automated ticket checks at barriers in Northern-managed stations are about to get smarter thanks to new technology that will alert staff to potential ‘chancers’ using an incorrect ticket.

The new technology will quickly and accurately check that a ticket is valid, but also alert staff if that validity requires additional checks such as presentation of the appropriate railcard.

Staff will then confirm the ticket is being used correctly, taking the necessary action if it isn’t.

With over 300,000 people using automated barriers across its network every day, checking the credentials of every ticket is a huge task - particularly at the larger stations during rush hour.

 

[185]

Lol. (imo) Theres no new kit or polygraph. The actual journalistic narrative should read:-
"Clueless Northern bosses finally find the operating manual for the expensive gates they bought that previously allowed a tesco clubcard through"

 

[swt_passenger]

Lol. (imo) Theres no new kit or polygraph. The actual journalistic narrative should read:-
"Clueless Northern bosses finally find the operating manual for the expensive gates they bought that previously allowed a tesco clubcard through"

Nice one. You’re completely correct as well, the forum’s fares section has posts going way back about people being stopped at barriers for railcard checks etc.

 

[skyhigh]

It's nothing to do with the barrier line itself. It's an additional standalone scanner that will tell staff why a ticket has been rejected with a lot more detail than the barriers can. It will take the place of a phone app that's currently in use.

 

[Jim]

I'm sure for years ticket barriers have had the function to "block" railcards, child fares and even if desired tickets to/from a certain station.

I don't really see why this is a headline to the industry at all, they should really be ashamed they don't already do it, if they are that serious about revenue protection.

Doesn't a barrier already do that, that's what the error code is for? Well at least on Cubic barriers.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

From Wikipedia:

A polygraph, often incorrectly referred to as a lie detector test,is a device or procedure that measures and records several physiological indicators such as blood pressure, pulse, respiration, and skin conductivity while a person is asked and answers a series of questions. The belief underpinning the use of the polygraph is that deceptive answers will produce physiological responses that can be differentiated from those associated with non-deceptive answers; however, there are no specific physiological reactions associated with lying, making it difficult to identify factors that separate those who are lying from those who are telling the truth.

So they aren't deploying any kind of polygraph nor even a 'polygraph' in inverted commas.

 

[Kite159]

I wonder if it will be smart enough to identify those passengers attempting to exit Victoria with an e-ticket from Salford Central which hasn't got an entry scan at a time when the barriers were in operation.

 

[WesternLancer]

I wonder if it will be smart enough to identify those passengers attempting to exit Victoria with an e-ticket from Salford Central which hasn't got an entry scan at a time when the barriers were in operation.

Never mind that - will it be smart enough to identify passengers with a Rail Rover....

 

[Watershed]

Northern do seem to have a habit of using flowery language in their press releases!

 

[AlterEgo]

Very silly press release over a piece of kit which might actually improve things for both customer and staff.

 

[northernman]

Hi all, as some of you may know, I work for Northern as Retail Operations Manager, (you may have seen my updates on our TVM fleet, My team looks after gates and many other systems). Maybe a bit of background to this article and gates in general may provide clarity.

As an industry we know that some people buy tickets with a discount to which they are not entitled, (railcard discount where no railcard is held, child fare when the person isn’t a child etc). Therefore one of the things we do is to perform revenue exercises at gated locations to see if people have the right ticket and discount entitlement.

We have a few missing functions in both suppliers gatelines, one doesn't block tickets, the other doesn't read discount status for barcodes. Whilst we work with both gate suppliers to remedy that, the press release shows that we have deployed a different bit of kit that can do the full read of barcode tickets and allow our revenue teams to make further checks to entitlement. We are using that data to demonstrate to RDG/GBR that its time to make changes to the gates to allow more detailed checks to ensure people buy the right fare for their journey, with the right discount, if entitled to it.

 

[RPI]

I'm sure for years ticket barriers have had the function to "block" railcards, child fares and even if desired tickets to/from a certain station.

I don't really see why this is a headline to the industry at all, they should really be ashamed they don't already do it, if they are that serious about revenue protection.

Doesn't a barrier already do that, that's what the error code is for? Well at least on Cubic barriers.

Yes for CCST tickets, no for barcode tickets. With cubic gates at least, special rules don't work on barcode tickets with the exception of child tickets.

They keep saying there will be a fix, but they're not rushing

Hi all, as some of you may know, I work for Northern as Retail Operations Manager, (you may have seen my updates on our TVM fleet, My team looks after gates and many other systems). Maybe a bit of background to this article and gates in general may provide clarity.

As an industry we know that some people buy tickets with a discount to which they are not entitled, (railcard discount where no railcard is held, child fare when the person isn’t a child etc). Therefore one of the things we do is to perform revenue exercises at gated locations to see if people have the right ticket and discount entitlement.

We have a few missing functions in both suppliers gatelines, one doesn't block tickets, the other doesn't read discount status for barcodes. Whilst we work with both gate suppliers to remedy that, the press release shows that we have deployed a different bit of kit that can do the full read of barcode tickets and allow our revenue teams to make further checks to entitlement. We are using that data to demonstrate to RDG/GBR that its time to make changes to the gates to allow more detailed checks to ensure people buy the right fare for their journey, with the right discount, if entitled to it.

Thanks for the info, it frustrates me so much that we can't set "special rules" to barcode tickets!

 

[ServerHoster]

I think I know what they're on about. I witnessed these "in action" at Leeds a couple weeks ago. I took a video of them because I was confused as to what they were - here are 2 screenshots from those videos.

IIRC, all the barriers were shut and people with barcode tickets were directed to the 2 wide gates at the end. These gates were open, and had a portable white box attached to them. The barcode would be scanned on the white box, and then would have a noise and a red light if invalid, prompting the staff to take a further check, or a green light and a noise if valid. The two staff members behind the gates were checking tickets - not in uniform, but they had a northern lanyard on. There was a massive queue to get through these 2 gates.

There were also, of course, loads of those Carlisle Security staff members helping non-barcode tickets through the regular barriers, or giving penalty fares/MG11s to those with invalid tickets. I didn't get to use one of these gates because I had one of those free day tickets.

 

[6Gman]

Hi all, as some of you may know, I work for Northern as Retail Operations Manager, (you may have seen my updates on our TVM fleet, My team looks after gates and many other systems). Maybe a bit of background to this article and gates in general may provide clarity.

As an industry we know that some people buy tickets with a discount to which they are not entitled, (railcard discount where no railcard is held, child fare when the person isn’t a child etc). Therefore one of the things we do is to perform revenue exercises at gated locations to see if people have the right ticket and discount entitlement.

We have a few missing functions in both suppliers gatelines, one doesn't block tickets, the other doesn't read discount status for barcodes. Whilst we work with both gate suppliers to remedy that, the press release shows that we have deployed a different bit of kit that can do the full read of barcode tickets and allow our revenue teams to make further checks to entitlement. We are using that data to demonstrate to RDG/GBR that its time to make changes to the gates to allow more detailed checks to ensure people buy the right fare for their journey, with the right discount, if entitled to it.

So where did the word "polygraph" come from?

Because it's nothing to do with a polygraph is it?

 

[TUC]

Just seen this article across various local rag websites, I'm still not quite sure if I understand what they've actually changed though! Surely the barriers indicated a railcard or child ticket in some way previously

The rail ticket ‘polygraph’: Northern deploys new kit to detect ‘chancers’ using the wrong ticket at station barriers

Automated ticket checks at barriers in Northern-managed stations are about to get smarter thanks to new technology that will alert staff to potential ‘chancers’ using an incorrect ticket.

www.wakefieldexpress.co.uk

Alert staff that a railcard is required? It's not exactly 21st century high tech is it?

 

[507020]

Hi all, as some of you may know, I work for Northern as Retail Operations Manager, (you may have seen my updates on our TVM fleet, My team looks after gates and many other systems). Maybe a bit of background to this article and gates in general may provide clarity.

As an industry we know that some people buy tickets with a discount to which they are not entitled, (railcard discount where no railcard is held, child fare when the person isn’t a child etc). Therefore one of the things we do is to perform revenue exercises at gated locations to see if people have the right ticket and discount entitlement.

We have a few missing functions in both suppliers gatelines, one doesn't block tickets, the other doesn't read discount status for barcodes. Whilst we work with both gate suppliers to remedy that, the press release shows that we have deployed a different bit of kit that can do the full read of barcode tickets and allow our revenue teams to make further checks to entitlement. We are using that data to demonstrate to RDG/GBR that its time to make changes to the gates to allow more detailed checks to ensure people buy the right fare for their journey, with the right discount, if entitled to it.

I am in possession of a valid Railcard, but whilst using Northern services I have noticed that it is checked less than 1% of the time, meaning unfortunately it is extremely easy to get away lying about having a Railcard. By contrast TransPennine Express have been very strict on checking Railcards in my experience and I am yet to use one of their services where they haven’t.

I recall that the barriers at Manchester Victoria previously didn’t allow Railcard discounted barcode tickets through, because of how annoying the additional check was, but that this is no longer the case. I do question the level of training some of the staff manually checking tickets have had though. Last Friday I arrived at Manchester Piccadilly at 08:35 carrying a paper advance ticket specifying the 07:16 departure from Southport and the member of staff looked at it for over a minute before accusing of boarding a later service and then before giving me chance to respond, said “Oh Southport and your Railcard”. I have also had a very patronising “You’ve come all the way from Southport to Manchester!” before immediately boarding a connection to Sheffield without leaving Piccadilly…

The barriers also do not like advances, rangers or any tickets that do not start or end at that specific station, where break of journey IS permitted, however I do recall an extremely heated exchange between a guard and a passenger of average age but below average ability to speak English, who insisted that he had purchased a ticket, but the guard was attempting to point out was not valid because it was discounted with something that the passenger was obviously not eligible for. I believe it may have actually been a 16-17 saver, the first alphabetically…

 

[yorkie]

Sounds like a load of nonsense. It's common for my ticket to be rejected at Leeds, despite having an itinerary via Leeds and I doubt these devices will resolve that.

Northern are notorious for having awful technology, abysmal communication and poor quality staff who check tickets. I can't see any of this changing any time soon.

Alert staff that a railcard is required? It's not exactly 21st century high tech is it?

Even the Albanian State Washing Machine Company has technology way in advance of Northern Rail.

 

[Howardh]

So I'm on and carry a Railcard, is a gate gonna bleep until an inspector comes over to check card and ticket? So I'm guilty until proved innocent, with everyone watching on? Have I got that right or am I miles off as I don't understand these new readers? Do you scan your Railcard too?

 

[30907]

So I'm on and carry a Railcard, is a gate gonna bleep until an inspector comes over to check card and ticket? So I'm guilty until proved innocent, with everyone watching on? Have I got that right or am I miles off as I don't understand these new readers?

That's what happens now.

 

[yorkie]

So I'm on and carry a Railcard, is a gate gonna bleep until an inspector comes over to check card and ticket? So I'm guilty until proved innocent, with everyone watching on? Have I got that right or am I miles off as I don't understand these new readers?

The implication is that you would need to show your Railcard; hence reports of delays at the gateline.

Do you scan your Railcard too?

Possibly but only if it's a digital one, of course.

That's what happens now.

Depends on the gateline.

 

[Howardh]

Sounds a load of hassle to me. Can't there be a team of flying inspectors hitting trains at random, especially rush hour, so anyone trying it on risks being caught? That way the gates get freed up?

 

[XAM2175]

Maybe a bit of background to this article and gates in general may provide clarity.

With respect, that's what the press release should have said. There's nothing overly complex about "we're deploying a device that can check tickets more thoroughly than the things we currently use", but that's not the impression the PR drivel gives.

Alert staff that a railcard is required? It's not exactly 21st century high tech is it?

Sounds like a load of nonsense. It's common for my ticket to be rejected at Leeds, despite having an itinerary via Leeds and I doubt these devices will resolve that.

So I'm on and carry a Railcard, is a gate gonna bleep until an inspector comes over to check card and ticket? So I'm guilty until proved innocent, with everyone watching on? Have I got that right or am I miles off as I don't understand these new readers? Do you scan your Railcard too?

The fetish for setting the gates to block Railcard tickets 24/7 is a right pain - it just causes hold-ups at the gateline and trains people to not even bother trying to insert their tickets. It should have been set up like LUL do; an alert light illuminates on the gate's display pod and an RPI seeing it can swoop in, but there' no hold-up if there's nobody there to see it.

 

[RPI]

With respect, that's what the press release should have said. There's nothing overly complex about "we're deploying a device that can check tickets more thoroughly than the things we currently use", but that's not the impression the PR drivel gives.




The fetish for setting the gates to block Railcard tickets 24/7 is a right pain - it just causes hold-ups at the gateline and trains people to not even bother trying to insert their tickets. It should have been set up like LUL do; an alert light illuminates on the gate's display pod and an RPI seeing it can swoop in, but there' no hold-up if there's nobody there to see it.

The special rules on gates (that don't work on barcode tickets yet!) Can be set to either Reject or alarm.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Doesn't stop the big issue of people jumping on anywhere, getting into a station like Leeds and then buying a very cheap advance ticket into Leeds from cheapest possible destination point. I see this pretty much every day.

 

[northernman]

Sounds like a load of nonsense. It's common for my ticket to be rejected at Leeds, despite having an itinerary via Leeds and I doubt these devices will resolve that.

Northern are notorious for having awful technology, abysmal communication and poor quality staff who check tickets. I can't see any of this changing any time soon.

Even the Albanian State Washing Machine Company has technology way in advance of Northern Rail.

Sorry to hear you feel that way. What ticket or journey gets rejected and on what media, happy to take a look

 

[yorksrob]

I knew the railway was dysfunctional, but I didn't realise it was turning into the Jeremy Kyle show !

 

[js517]

View attachment 124625View attachment 124627

I think I know what they're on about. I witnessed these "in action" at Leeds a couple weeks ago. I took a video of them because I was confused as to what they were - here are 2 screenshots from those videos.

IIRC, all the barriers were shut and people with barcode tickets were directed to the 2 wide gates at the end. These gates were open, and had a portable white box attached to them. The barcode would be scanned on the white box, and then would have a noise and a red light if invalid, prompting the staff to take a further check, or a green light and a noise if valid. The two staff members behind the gates were checking tickets - not in uniform, but they had a northern lanyard on. There was a massive queue to get through these 2 gates.

There were also, of course, loads of those Carlisle Security staff members helping non-barcode tickets through the regular barriers, or giving penalty fares/MG11s to those with invalid tickets. I didn't get to use one of these gates because I had one of those free day tickets.

I think I used one of these a few weeks ago at Ilkley; it was certainly that sort of colour with TTK branding.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Carlisle Security asking to see your railcard is a "polygraph test" now. Dear me.

It certainly explains why the Leeds gateline is a zoo.

 

[87electric]

Carlisle Security asking to see your railcard is a "polygraph test" now. Dear me.

It certainly explains why the Leeds gateline is a zoo.

Who tests the polygraph tester?

 

[scrapy]

Apparently some self checkouts now use facial recognition to decide if somebody os definitely over 18 or needs to show ID. By the headlines i wondered if Northern were using the same kind of thing in reverse to detect adults on child tickets?!!