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HS1 Closed - Eurostar

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zwk500

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Well your approach to information gathering certainly pays dividends in terms of how you come across on here. It’s refreshing to have such an articulate, obviously intelligent, and highly knowledgable poster making such excellent contributions to the forum.

Keep it up!
Thank you very much.
Studying is a cathartic process, and should be something you do for yourself, primarily. I’d do my law degree all over again, just for the arguing. ;)
Haha, I wish thesis writing was a cathartic process! I'll be glad to get back into the rail industry in some ways, although I'll also miss the debate and research side of it too. As in life, you can't have everything.
 
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Taunton

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Many years ago I recall taking a Eurostar which was sent around the Catford Loop!
Quite common, and in fact timetabled for some services; done it myself on Eurostar once. Via Bat & Ball was a further variation. Various threads on here discussed it all and the reasons for it. Still used for expresses from Victoria to Kent sometimes.
 

Bald Rick

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Quite an epic trip!

Prague feels like it’s a long way away. But in reality it isn’t. It’s almost exactly the same distance from London as the France / Spain border near Perpignan (640 miles crow flies, around 800miles on the road). I’ve driven each of them in a day.
 

43066

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Thank you very much.

No worries, bud. No need to thank me, I’m only saying what I’ve seen.

Haha, I wish thesis writing was a cathartic process! I'll be glad to get back into the rail industry in some ways, although I'll also miss the debate and research side of it too. As in life, you can't have everything.

Avoid this toxic industry like the plague and go and get a proper job, for goodness sake o_O.

Go and work for an investment bank and earn some real money.

Quite common, and in fact timetabled for some services; done it myself on Eurostar once. Via Bat & Ball was a further variation. Various threads on here discussed it all and the reasons for it. Still used for expresses from Victoria to Kent sometimes.

I’ve experienced each iteration of the Eurostar routings as a passenger. That shows my age, somewhat!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Prague feels like it’s a long way away. But in reality it isn’t. It’s almost exactly the same distance from London as the France / Spain border near Perpignan (640 miles crow flies, around 800miles on the road). I’ve driven each of them in a day.

Thanks. I’ve flown myself to destinations in both France and Belgium so appreciate the distances involved aren’t always as they appear on a map.

The channel looks pretty intimidating from circa. 5000 feet in a light aircraft, and looks pretty cold. You feel your own humanity, and your own mortality, for sure!
 
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magpiespy

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I was caught up in the Eurostar problem today as well. We were about 2 hours late out of Paris and about 150 minutes late on arrival owing to waiting for a platform at St Pancras. There were six sets in the station.

For what it's worth the on-train information was fine in my view - the outlook was unclear and they said as much at regular intervals. We were put onto the train even though there was no prospect of imminent departure so we could sit in comfort. Much better than an airport delay in my experience - sitting on an air conditioned train beats standing in a crowded terminal.
 

Sm5

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Tbh i’m surprised they didnt just bus passengers from Calais to the ferry terminal and let them go as foot passengers.

I bet the toilets hummed.

Eurostar doesnt have any concept of helping in a crisis, your on your own, on their train and thats it.
 

43066

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Tbh i’m surprised they didnt just bus passengers from Calais to the ferry terminal and let them go as foot passengers.

I bet the toilets hummed.

Eurostar doesnt have any concept of helping in a crisis, your on your own, on their train and thats it.

Because that would play really well, wouldn’t it?!

You’ve paid X for your passage. Now we will pay Y to put you in a bus to London. From Thanet.

It’ll take three hours, and you’ll be surrounded by people with webbed feet, who look like they want to eat you… :D
 
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Silenos

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Fair point. Interesting comment re. historical Connex service. Many years ago I recall taking a Eurostar which was sent around the Catford Loop
When I was living in Ladywell we quite often saw Eurostar stock passing over the park on that line.
 

Robert Ambler

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Tbh i’m surprised they didnt just bus passengers from Calais to the ferry terminal and let them go as foot passengers.

I bet the toilets hummed.

Eurostar doesnt have any concept of helping in a crisis, your on your own, on their train and thats it.
It would be completely impractical to bus the passengers from Calais to the Ferry.
They have already passed through customs and immigration for the UK and so if they alighted from the train in France it would require them to go through the reverse process which is simply not available without the trains returning to say Lille.
Where would you find that number of buses in a short time.
The ferries aren't really interested in foot passengers and would probably struggle with that volume turning up at short notice.
Then of course what do you do with them all when they arrive in Dover?
Keeping them on the trains until the problem is resolved is probably the quickest and most pragmatic way of dealing with the issue
 

Cloud Strife

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No customers or Border Control at Waterloo

Originally Kensington Olympia was the emergency detrainment point for Eurostar if Waterloo was unavailable, and there are some reports of trains being sent there. In reality given the problem of dumping people at Kensington Olympia with little or no onward travel it's probably best for the trains to stay put until the line is re-opened.

Border control isn't an issue for arriving passengers, as they will have already cleared the juxtaposed control in one of the Schengen countries. There's only the nominal customs clearance issue, but this isn't much of a problem.

The problem is really that the trains simply can't get there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

They have already passed through customs and immigration for the UK and so if they alighted from the train in France it would require them to go through the reverse process which is simply not available without the trains returning to say Lille.

Not necessarily. As they've already been cleared out of Schengen, it is possible to put them on a direct bus to the border control facility in Calais, where they can be re-cleared. Schengen countries also have mobile terminals for carrying out border control, so this isn't a major problem.
 
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Taunton

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It would be completely impractical to bus the passengers from Calais to the Ferry.
They have already passed through customs and immigration for the UK and so if they alighted from the train in France it would require them to go through the reverse process which is simply not available without the trains returning to say Lille.
Why? Airlines have daily situations where flights are cancelled after check-in, and in some cases passed through immigration of the destination country even before they depart. They have straightforward procedures with the authorities on how to handle this. Why is Eurostar any different?
 

RT4038

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Tbh i’m surprised they didnt just bus passengers from Calais to the ferry terminal and let them go as foot passengers.
Probably because the ferry companies would not have taken them - two of three firms do not have the facilities to take foot passengers at all, and the third only small numbers.

Eurostar doesnt have any concept of helping in a crisis, your on your own, on their train and thats it.
Not 'your on your own' , by all accounts they were with several hundred passengers. At best you just have to wait until the problem is cleared; at worst you'll eventually be taken back to the starting point. None of the alternative suggestions so far in this thread have had any practicable merit.

Schengen countries also have mobile terminals for carrying out border control, so this isn't a major problem.
Manned and ready to be moved to and arrive at any location within a short notice? Yeah, right.
 

fandroid

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Nothing beats sitting on the tarmac at the departure gate on a hot day in a plane with no engine power while anodine messages are fed from the cockpit to the captive passengers reassuring them that "we're trying to get a revised arrival slot at Heathrow, and I'll update you when we're cleared for takeoff". Every airline does it, not just Ryanair!
 

Robert Ambler

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Why? Airlines have daily situations where flights are cancelled after check-in, and in some cases passed through immigration of the destination country even before they depart. They have straightforward procedures with the authorities on how to handle this. Why is Eurostar any different?
Because for the airlines if their flight is cancelled the passengers are still within the airport but in this case the trains were not at the original point passengers had embarked and Calais Frethun has no facilities

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Nothing beats sitting on the tarmac at the departure gate on a hot day in a plane with no engine power while anodine messages are fed from the cockpit to the captive passengers reassuring them that "we're trying to get a revised arrival slot at Heathrow, and I'll update you when we're cleared for takeoff". Every airline does it, not just Ryanair!
Easyjet alone cancelled 50 flights at Gatwick yesterday due to the weather
 

Peterthegreat

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I suspect communication could have been better but I really don't know what else Eurostar could do. Given it was a Sunday afternoon/evening there wuld have been several THOUSAND people in Paris, a similar number in London with hundreds both in Brussels and Lille. Chartering planes or buses would have been extremely difficult and for Eurostar to book hotel accommodation for everyone would probably have taken all night.
Fortunately such events are extremely rare but it does make headline news when it does occur.
 

Cloud Strife

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Manned and ready to be moved to and arrive at any location within a short notice? Yeah, right.

In Schengen? Nothing extraordinary. The inflexibility of the UK Border Force is not repeated in Schengen, where there are procedures in place for dealing with this type of situation. At a push, they could allow all the EU passengers to leave freely (because all that is required is a visual check of identity documents), whereas non-EU passengers could simply be controlled individually.

But with Schengen, it would be enough to simply put people on buses with someone from the French police to ensure the bus was secure.

Calais Frethun has no facilities

Doesn't the border control facilities still exist at Calais-Frethun? It's hard to imagine that they've been dismantled, given how underused the station is.
 

zwk500

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Doesn't the border control facilities still exist at Calais-Frethun? It's hard to imagine that they've been dismantled, given how underused the station is.
The facilities have been mothballed, and therefore could not be reactivated at just an hour or two's notice.
 

Howardh

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Not necessarily. As they've already been cleared out of Schengen, it is possible to put them on a direct bus to the border control facility in Calais, where they can be re-cleared. Schengen countries also have mobile terminals for carrying out border control, so this isn't a major problem.
On leaving Schengen - even though on an Eurostar you can technically still be in Schengen - one will have received their exit stamp, so to get off a train onto a bus in a controlled manner means any further checks (ie. at the port) would just require showing that stamp as long as officials know the reason.

In theory.....
 

zwk500

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On leaving Schengen - even though on an Eurostar you can technically still be in Schengen - one will have received their exit stamp, so to get off a train onto a bus in a controlled manner means any further checks (ie. at the port) would just require showing that stamp as long as officials know the reason.

In theory.....
It would theoretically be feasible with an escorted bus. But you'd need to have people securing the transfer site and somebody making sure the bus didn't get stopped/stowed away on between the station and the port. But given that you'd need to get the passengers actually onto the boat the simplest solution is to just send the bus all the way to Ashford rather than faff about with the foot passenger terminals. However this means bumping other coaches off and the bus now takes a very long time to make a return trip (although it can pick up a Eurostar load for the other direction I guess).
 

Cloud Strife

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The facilities have been mothballed, and therefore could not be reactivated at just an hour or two's notice.

In the UK. In Schengen, the legal possibility exists to activate controls at any point, and this is routinely done. It wouldn't be a major problem to send a couple of people over from Coquelles/Calais to reactivate the checkpoint, as it's highly likely that the existing infrastructure remains in place.

It's worth remembering that Schengen currently doesn't require anything more than visual checks for EU citizens.

Generally speaking, the Schengen zone is rather more laid back about controls than the UK is, especially to low risk destinations like the UK.
 

Howardh

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It would theoretically be feasible with an escorted bus. But you'd need to have people securing the transfer site and somebody making sure the bus didn't get stopped/stowed away on between the station and the port. But given that you'd need to get the passengers actually onto the boat the simplest solution is to just send the bus all the way to Ashford rather than faff about with the foot passenger terminals. However this means bumping other coaches off and the bus now takes a very long time to make a return trip (although it can pick up a Eurostar load for the other direction I guess).
Put the bus/es on to the ferry? The only issue would be the driver/s would have to have working visas for the UK which I doubt could be done in that space of time! Otherwise they would have to use drivers who are already permitted to work in the UK (many coach drivers will be - I assume), the issue would be sourcing them at such short notice. So many bonuses from that B-word....
 

zwk500

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In the UK. In Schengen, the legal possibility exists to activate controls at any point, and this is routinely done. It wouldn't be a major problem to send a couple of people over from Coquelles/Calais to reactivate the checkpoint, as it's highly likely that the existing infrastructure remains in place.

It's worth remembering that Schengen currently doesn't require anything more than visual checks for EU citizens.

Generally speaking, the Schengen zone is rather more laid back about controls than the UK is, especially to low risk destinations like the UK.
The legal possibility may exist, but would the equipment still work, does the software need updating since the 2020 versions, and does the building still meet all the other relevant certification for passenger use? Opening a side gate and showing your passport to a rather bored PAF officer is perfectly feasible though.
 

Cloud Strife

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The legal possibility may exist, but would the equipment still work, does the software need updating since the 2020 versions, and does the building still meet all the other relevant certification for passenger use? Opening a side gate and showing your passport to a rather bored PAF officer is perfectly feasible though.

On mobile, so apologies for the formatting. According to the latest list of French border crossings:

Land borders

(1) Bourg Saint Maurice railway station (open from the beginning of December to mid-April)
(2)Moûtiers railway station (open from the beginning of December to mid-April)
(3)Ashford International railway station
(4)Cheriton/Coquelles
(5)Chessy-Marne-la-Vallée railway station
(6)Fréthun railway station
(7)Lille-Europe railway station
(8)Paris-Nord railway station
(9)St-Pancras railway station
(10)Ebbsfleet railway station
(11)Pas de la Case-Porta
(12)Roissy TGV railway station - airport

If they are listed here, then they are available for use. I don't think there would be any major drama in reactivating Calais-Fréthun for temporary purposes, as it's likely that there's only small issues with the technical infrastructure.

The bigger issue will come later - as it's not clear to me if France will equip the unused border crossings with the EES equipment.

I'd also point out - at least in France, they have many "on demand" border crossings at small regional airports. There's no reason why they couldn't also carry out controls, especially as the French authorise their customs officers to carry out immigration controls.
 

RT4038

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On mobile, so apologies for the formatting. According to the latest list of French border crossings:

Land borders

(1) Bourg Saint Maurice railway station (open from the beginning of December to mid-April)
(2)Moûtiers railway station (open from the beginning of December to mid-April)
(3)Ashford International railway station
(4)Cheriton/Coquelles
(5)Chessy-Marne-la-Vallée railway station
(6)Fréthun railway station
(7)Lille-Europe railway station
(8)Paris-Nord railway station
(9)St-Pancras railway station
(10)Ebbsfleet railway station
(11)Pas de la Case-Porta
(12)Roissy TGV railway station - airport

If they are listed here, then they are available for use. I don't think there would be any major drama in reactivating Calais-Fréthun for temporary purposes, as it's likely that there's only small issues with the technical infrastructure.

The bigger issue will come later - as it's not clear to me if France will equip the unused border crossings with the EES equipment.

I'd also point out - at least in France, they have many "on demand" border crossings at small regional airports. There's no reason why they couldn't also carry out controls, especially as the French authorise their customs officers to carry out immigration controls.
Yes, but these mobile / 'on demand' border crossings are activated for known demand, not 800 passengers at an hours notice (and that is just one train - there may be several queued up). These are not going to suddenly be fired into action to mitigate a few hours delay to E* trains. The passengers will just stay in the trains until the problem is cleared.
It would theoretically be feasible with an escorted bus. But you'd need to have people securing the transfer site and somebody making sure the bus didn't get stopped/stowed away on between the station and the port. But given that you'd need to get the passengers actually onto the boat the simplest solution is to just send the bus all the way to Ashford rather than faff about with the foot passenger terminals. However this means bumping other coaches off and the bus now takes a very long time to make a return trip (although it can pick up a Eurostar load for the other direction I guess).

It is not really likely that (a) sufficient coaches and drivers could be rustled up within any sensible time, and (b) that the ferry companies will have sufficient capacity to convey (15 or 16) coaches required potentially for each train load. They have no reason to bump off their existing business to accommodate (particularly if the reason for the delay is with the tunnel, and vehicles booked on LeShuttle will also be attempting a boat crossing)

If the delay to the train is going to be 8 hours or more then I am sure a plan could be put in place without invoking immigration problems, as has been suggested above. However, that would be a massive (unmanageable?) strain on the management/administrative resources of E* , so is only going to be attempted in very extreme circumstances. And I am sure posters on here would be criticising every last detail of it.
 
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zwk500

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It is not really likely that (a) sufficient coaches and drivers could be rustled up within any sensible time, and (b) that the ferry companies will have sufficient capacity to convey (15 or 16) coaches required potentially for each train load. They have no reason to bump off their existing business to accommodate (particularly if the reason for the delay is with the tunnel, and vehicles booked on LeShuttle will also be attempting a boat crossing)

If the delay to the train is going to be 8 hours or more then I am sure a plan could be put in place without invoking immigration problems, as has been suggested above. However, that would be a massive (unmanageable?) strain on the management/administrative resources of E* , so is only going to be attempted in very extreme circumstances. And I am sure posters on here would be criticising every last detail of it.
Oh I'm fully with you. By far the best option is what happened - passengers stayed on the trains and ran through late when the line was reopened.

But if nothing else there will be a fire evacuation plan for the departure terminals that will deal with the security issues.
 

Deepgreen

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You mean dragged along hs1 ? I don’t think 373s can be accommodated anymore at Waterloo ?
Hauled along HS1, yes. Why could, say, a 57 not take it all the way to St. P. in these sort of circumstances, or is it a signalling issue?

Yet again, the apparent lack of information provision (that was seemingly already available in the public domain) to passengers seems appalling. One of the great railway failures of the modern era - when information technology is so advanced, it is usually so badly used by the railway.
 

notadriver

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Hauled along HS1, yes. Why could, say, a 57 not take it all the way to St. P. in these sort of circumstances, or is it a signalling issue?

Yet again, the apparent lack of information provision (that was seemingly already available in the public domain) to passengers seems appalling. One of the great railway failures of the modern era - when information technology is so advanced, it is usually so badly used by the railway.

no reason why not. I believe an ice 3 unit was shown off in st Pancras having been towed in.
 

zwk500

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Hauled along HS1, yes. Why could, say, a 57 not take it all the way to St. P. in these sort of circumstances, or is it a signalling issue?
A 57 doesn't have TVM or KVB, both are needed for St Pancras. AIUI the only locos that could haul failed trains are the Eurotunnel diesel locos (Class 21 on TOPS) used for maintenance/special duties but there's not many of them and shuttling them on and off at stations would be operationally awkward.
 

notadriver

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A 57 doesn't have TVM or KVB, both are needed for St Pancras. AIUI the only locos that could haul failed trains are the Eurotunnel diesel locos (Class 21 on TOPS) used for maintenance/special duties but there's not many of them and shuttling them on and off at stations would be operationally awkward.

don’t the 92s have TVM430 fitted ?
 
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