liverpool - norwich !!

[chefchenko]

How much longer are we going to have to put up with a 2 car sprinter on this busy route ? Twice in the last fortnight its standing room only and nearly all the seats are booked out at least 2 legs of the journey !! :cry:

 

[sprinterguy]

Until London Midlands' class 150 cascade allows four class 156s to move from Northern to East Midlands Trains, hopefully sometime this summer, which will allow all of the Liverpool to Norwich workings to be formed of four carriages between Liverpool and Nottingham, AFAIK. Even now, the majority of the Liverpool to Norwich trains are four car as far as Nottingham.

 

[Class172]

Am I right in that used to be a central trains service, and that they used 156's??

 

[Flywaver]

On the odd occasion the odd 156 strays on that service even now..

 

[sprinterguy]

Am I right in that used to be a central trains service, and that they used 156's??

It used to be a Central Citylink service, which saw three carriage 170s on the route. Centrals' fleet rostering always seemed to be a mixed bag though, so I think pretty much anything could be chucked out on a whim.

 

[YorkshireBear]

im not sure the lm cascade allows all nottingham liverpool to be 4 car i think the sprinter refresh has to finish first , which i have as sometime in 2012?

 

[Class172]

It used to be a Central Citylink service, which saw three carriage 170s on the route. Centrals' fleet rostering always seemed to be a mixed bag though, so I think pretty much anything could be chucked out on a whim.

If 170's were used on that service, where were the 156's used then? They certainly weren't used on my line (B'ham New St. - Hereford via Bromsgrove). As far as I can remember back (when is was about 5) it has used 170's. Before that I think there were 158's but I only moved to Droitwich in 2000 so I'm not entirely sure. I have seen some pictures of express liveried 156's in 2003-4 on the snow hill line that came from Cardiff.

 

[trentside]

I used to see the Central 156s around the East Midlands on local workings, not dissimilar to what the units work now with EMT.

 

[northwichcat]

If 170's were used on that service, where were the 156's used then? They certainly weren't used on my line (B'ham New St. - Hereford via Bromsgrove). As far as I can remember back (when is was about 5) it has used 170's. Before that I think there were 158's but I only moved to Droitwich in 2000 so I'm not entirely sure. I have seen some pictures of express liveried 156's in 2003-4 on the snow hill line that came from Cardiff.

I used the Liverpool-Norwich service quite a bit when CT ran it and it was mainly 3 and 4 car 158s and 170s. Occasionally even a 5 car 170 formation after they got the ex-MML 170s.

Central even ordered a set of 170s specifically for running Liverpool-Norwich.

158s and 170s were also the usual traction on the Liverpool-Birmingham-Stansted Airport route with Sprinters and 323s being used on the services that ran Liverpool-Birmingham only.

 

[sprinterguy]

im not sure the lm cascade allows all nottingham liverpool to be 4 car i think the sprinter refresh has to finish first , which i have as sometime in 2012?

Good point, I think you're probably right. Once the Sprinter refresh is finished and EMT has it's full compliment of units available, then all the Liverpool to Nottingham runs can be four car. The additional four 156s will allow more of the Liverpool to Nottingham trains to be four car 158s though, surely.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Good point, I think you're probably right. Once the Sprinter refresh is finished and EMT has it's full compliment of units available, then all the Liverpool to Nottingham runs can be four car. The additional four 156s will allow more of the Liverpool to Nottingham trains to be four car 158s though, surely.

oh yeah i completely agree, just saying i heard somewhere that even with 4 extra units there not all 4 car till sprinter refresh is done but then nottingham liverpool is definitely 4 car

 

[lm321412]

If 170's were used on that service, where were the 156's used then? They certainly weren't used on my line (B'ham New St. - Hereford via Bromsgrove). As far as I can remember back (when is was about 5) it has used 170's. Before that I think there were 158's but I only moved to Droitwich in 2000 so I'm not entirely sure. I have seen some pictures of express liveried 156's in 2003-4 on the snow hill line that came from Cardiff.

I have seen Central 156s on Birmingham - Bromsgrove - Hereford.

IIRC, Often a 156 would turn up on the Nottingham - Birmingham - Hereford duties.

 

[222007]

156's could be found and still are on the skegness route and local Leicester - Lincoln route

 

[junglejames]

Its often said that EMTs fleet is under utilised. So, how about a HST on a couple of services?!!! That should help out!!

 

[ChrisCooper]

You can't just go shoving HSTs on any services. They are too long to call at most stations on the Liverpool to Norwich route, infact they would cause problems at Norwich, Nottingham and Sheffield, if not Liverpool too, as at Norwich and Nottingham they often share a platform due to having reasonable layovers at both (at Norwich the EMT arrives followed by the Cambridge which then departs followed by the EMT, at Nottingham the EMT arrives then during it's layover a London arrival comes in behind it), at Sheffield it uses the bay normally. Don't know about Liverpool. Not sure if a HST could reverse at Ely or would have to use the curve, and even if they could the extra time for the driver to change ends would be a problem (they don't get long). HSTs would not be able to take advantage of the Sprinter differentials between Ely and Norwich and across the Pennines, so might struggle keeping to time. Other than that though performance wouldn't be a problem, it's nothing like enough of a stop/start route to give the HSTs a hard time. I doubt an 8 coach HST would be needed anyway.
I suppose one option (which given EMTs overstocking of HSTs would be sensible) would be to reduce a set or 2 to 5 coaches. This would not only be useful for covering on the Liverpool to Norwich, but also could cover for Meridiens.

 

[tbtc]

Its often said that EMTs fleet is under utilised. So, how about a HST on a couple of services?!!! That should help out!!

Is it? By who? Since they run single 153s on routes like Derby - Crewe and two car DMUs on routes like Liverpool - Norwich I'm not sure there's any slack in the system...

Whilst the HSTs aren't used as intensively (off peak), they'd be useless on routes with frequent stops (poorer acceleration/ deceleration), too long for some stations and would have to run slower than Sprinters due to speed differences. Sorry, but that wouldn't work.

 

[northwichcat]

Is it? By who? Since they run single 153s on routes like Derby - Crewe and two car DMUs on routes like Liverpool - Norwich I'm not sure there's any slack in the system...

Whilst the HSTs aren't used as intensively (off peak), they'd be useless on routes with frequent stops (poorer acceleration/ deceleration), too long for some stations and would have to run slower than Sprinters due to speed differences. Sorry, but that wouldn't work.

EMT apparently looked at putting one or two 222 diagrams on Liverpool-Norwich every Saturday a couple of years ago because less 222s and HSTs are required on London services at weekends. I think the main sticking point was the 222s can't run at Sprinter speeds through Norfolk so they would have to arrange 222s to run Liverpool-Nottingham with connecting 158s running Nottingham-Norwich.

 

[junglejames]

My god, you all went for it didnt you. I know all the problems with HSTs and all that. I also know about platform sharing at Norwich. I know about slow acceleration.
Unfortunately nobody saw all my !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ie. Joke. Not serious.

Oh, and its been mentioned on here and elsewhere about the under utilisation. I dont know for sure. Im going by others on here and elsewhere.

Plus, do you not think if i was serious, id have suggested 5 car Meridians instead? I never did, so i couldnt have been serious. Im not quite as stpid as you may like to think!

 

[danfitz123]

My god, you all went for it didnt you. I know all the problems with HSTs and all that. I also know about platform sharing at Norwich. I know about slow acceleration.
Unfortunately nobody saw all my !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ie. Joke. Not serious.

Oh, and its been mentioned on here and elsewhere about the under utilisation. I dont know for sure. Im going by others on here and elsewhere.

Plus, do you not think if i was serious, id have suggested 5 car Meridians instead? I never did, so i couldnt have been serious. Im not quite as stpid as you may like to think!

LOL,

 

[387star]

Was no better under Central Trains.

In 2001 I went from Ely to Manchester and the train was packed to the gunnels and an obese woman was pressed against me stinking of BO

 

[YorkshireBear]

i went from meadowhall to chester the other day, from picaddilly to sheffield i caught emt service how pleased i was when a 4 car pulled in, my heart was in my mouth until i saw it come round corner.

 

[12CSVT]

Overcrowding on this route is far from new. In fact for most of the 1990s many of these services were even subject to compulsory reservations at weekends, with the consequence that the majority of trains serving Alfreton on a Saturday was marked 'reservation compulsory'.

 

[dk1]

Overcrowding on this route is far from new. In fact for most of the 1990s many of these services were even subject to compulsory reservations at weekends, with the consequence that the majority of trains serving Alfreton on a Saturday was marked 'reservation compulsory'.

Nobody seems to complain much these days as they are so used to being treated like cattle on this route. EMT are trying hard & some benefits should become apparent in the next few months.

 

[tbtc]

EMT are trying hard

I think that's the important point.

The DFT gave EMT a rough deal, they've not earmarked any new stock for them either (compared to LM with modern 170s and 350s who also get new 172s), but Stagecoach can clearly see where the problems lie.

Out of interest, what happened to the "passenger counting" software EMT were meant to be using? Did it prove that Central Trains gave junk figures for passenger use?

 

[GNERman]

On the odd occasion the odd 156 strays on that service even now..

whilst i've seen 158's working Doncaster-Lincoln - hardly the most important route when even 153's work it

 

[mallard]

I think part of the issue is that these services are far less crowded east of Nottingham and between Nottingham and Liverpool there are alternative services from Northern and TPX.

The busiest section, Liverpool-Manchester-Sheffield will benefit from the NW electrification programmes, both directly between Liverpool and Manchester and via the releasing of 185s from Manchester-Scotland.

Northern's Nottingham-Leeds services are quite underutilized off-peak in my experience, so it doesn't appear that much extra capacity is needed between Nottingham and Sheffield.

 

[a good off]

This route should have loco hauled trains. Class 67s and Cargo D mark 2s would be a vast improvement. :roll:

 

[Nym]

Except for the massivly increased dwell times and journey times due to differential speed limits for sprinters?

Even EMT have said the correct stock for the route is the 158s, hence why the're getting more 156s to release 158s onto this route.

 

[northwichcat]

Except for the massivly increased dwell times and journey times due to differential speed limits for sprinters?

Even EMT have said the correct stock for the route is the 158s, hence why the're getting more 156s to release 158s onto this route.

For the route as a whole 158s and 170s are both suitable. EMT would prefer to put more of their 158s on to the route over 170s due to how much has been spent on refurbishing them.

175, 180s, 185s, 220s, 221s and 222s would be slower on some sections despite being able to do over 90mph. 153s and 156s having a 75mph top speed would mean late running services can't make up time.

 

[danfitz123]

Maybe they should have grabbed some of the 180's that were going spare. Even if they weren't suitable for the Liverpool-Norwich run, they could have gone on some of the London ones and allowed for 222's on the Liverpool-Norwich. They've done it before.

Correct me if I'm wrong! And feel my wrath!