ASLEF - LNER drivers to strike every Sat & Sun for 3 months from 31 Aug - Now called off

[Starmill]

By paying managers £500 a day bonuses to drive a train?

If that's better value for money in the long run than recruiting and training a new permanent role then yes obviously. You'd do it in any line of business.

 

[bengley]

If that's better value for money in the long run than recruiting and training a new permanent role then yes obviously. You'd do it in any line of business.

But the managers aren't doing their jobs when they're driving trains and so issues (some of which have probably led to this dispute) aren't being resolved...

Managers should be doing their jobs, managing the drivers. Not driving trains all the time.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm amazed you think not talking went well.

It seems to work very well for many marriages, or so I'm told, so dunno why the same wouldn't apply to the railway

 

[bengley]

Strawman.

No, seeing as nobody has described the actual outdated working practices which they seem to believe exist (at least genuine ones) I have to assume it is this that they mean!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yep! Perhaps bringing in unpopular and expensive ticketing options and worrying too much about brand image are (some of) the issues!

That would have been expressly at the demand of the DfT (as an industry trial).
The new DfT has yet to pronounce on how it will rationalise the fare system.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm fairly sure if managers were actually just occasionally asking for an actual favour we wouldn't be here. I rather suspect that at least some level of pressure tactics are being applied to drivers and, quite rightly, they've got fed up of it and telling their management to bog off and abide by the letter of the agreements in place.

Managers will know which drivers will be susceptible to which types of pressure. Managers will know which ones will always say yes, which ones will always say no, and which ones will start off saying no but then eventually say yes if you keep texting them on their day off. A good manager will know which staff have, say, just had a child or grandchild and need the money.

It may not even be deliberately nefarious, of course managers are going to ask those drivers who are most likely to say yes.

But that's why you have transparent mechanisms, so managers don't always just ask their mates or don't always just ask the driver they know needs the money and is easily persuadable.

The real point is they shouldn't be asking people via the back door. If you're always pestering the same people and you're in a position of power then it can very easily end up being perceived as either bullying or as trying to divide and conquer the workforce.

ETA: The fact the dispute has become so entrenched suggests to me that it isn't simply a case of an over-excitable manager asking for too many favours, though. If it was, that manager would have had their wrists slapped and everyone would have got on with their day. This must be coming from the top as a deliberate tactic and so, on that basis, it's no wonder that the union is seeing it as an attempt to divide and conquer the workforce.

 

[ainsworth74]

The real point is they shouldn't be asking people via the back door. If you're always pestering the same people and you're in a position of power then it can very easily end up being perceived as either bullying or as trying to divide and conquer the workforce.

Definitely, it's all smoke and mirrors, but that's certainly the implication I took about the behaviour of LNER managers from what has been said publicly about the dispute.

 

[yorksrob]

I was in a job once when I kept being pestered to fill in other people's shifts. I sympathised with my line manager, who was always very apologetic when she asked, but it was a right pain.

 

[357]

If that's better value for money in the long run than recruiting and training a new permanent role then yes obviously. You'd do it in any line of business.

I'm a driver and for me to earn that money I'd need to work a shift longer than 13 hours.

Then, who's doing the management tasks?

 

[Starmill]

But the managers aren't doing their jobs when they're driving trains and so issues (some of which have probably led to this dispute) aren't being resolved...

Managers should be doing their jobs, managing the drivers. Not driving trains all the time.

An incredibly weak reason to call 22 days of strike action. At the end of the day you don't have standing over whether the manager is driving the train or not.

 

[whoosh]

You don’t need an agreement for (fully competent) driver managers to drive trains.

It depends on the TOC. East Midlands managers can, and used to regularly on Sundays when these used to be outside of the working week there. To the extent that the managers were fed up of working every weekend.

London Overground, for example, can only in certain conditions:

DMs are authorised to drive trains a) for retaining route/traction competence or being assessed. This will not be on a pre-rostered basis. A Driver relieved as a result will take up the next working or be utilised as spare within the rostered hours. b) When they are the first at the scene of an operational emergency. c) When the Driver becomes incapacitated or a Trainee fails to meet the minimum standards.

Note that this does NOT include, "When we haven't got enough drivers, generally, or if we've lost goodwill and none are working overtime."

So, it depends on what is agreed at LNER.

 

[Starmill]

I'm a driver and for me to earn that money I'd need to work a shift longer than 13 hours.

Then, who's doing the management tasks?

Nobody was saying you had to like it or that it was the best way to run a business though, only that you couldn't go on strike for that reason in and of itself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2024 ==

It depends on the TOC. East Midlands managers can, and used to regularly on Sumdays when these used to be outside of the working week there. To the extent that the managers were fed up of working every weekend.

London Overground, for example, can only in certain conditions:



Note that this does NOT include, "When we haven't got enough drivers, generally, or if we've lost goodwill and none are working overtime."


So, it depends on what is agreed at LNER.

Only because London Overground have given drivers a commitment that managers for cover will be used in a specific way.

 

[island]

No, seeing as nobody has described the actual outdated working practices which they seem to believe exist (at least genuine ones) I have to assume it is this that they mean!

If you don't know what people are arguing for, then ask them. Making up an obviously weak argument and dismissing it is the strawman fallacy.

Some of the outdated working practices in parts of the railway industry include:

• Refusal to use electronic means such as iPads to receive communications such as late notices or TSLs
• Staff members claiming an entitlement to restart the duration of a break if a manager speaks to the staff member during the break, even as little as saying hello
• Claiming of "walking time" of 10-15 minutes for distances that can be covered in less than two
• Strict demarcation of locations where work will be carried out where there is no rationale or benefit to the business
• Demanding money for use of scanning equipment to read e-tickets
• Refusing to use videoconferencing technology such as Zoom for meetings
• Refusing rest day working and then objecting to other competent employees working those rest days
• Claiming of paid time off every six months to check that the staff member's health hasn't been adversely impacted by the microwave in the break room

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not state that all or any of these practices are in place at LNER or any specific TOC, and I will not respond to seriatim refutation or rebuttal. I am citing them as examples of categories of behaviour that belong in the history books.

 

[bengley]

Nobody was saying you had to like it or that it was the best way to run a business though, only that you couldn't go on strike for that reason in and of itself.

Yes you can go on strike for that reason, if the act of managers driving trains is a breach of agreements. Unions and management agree to things (this works both ways) and if people don't stick to these then it's a reason for a dispute. That's how it works and if you are jealous of this arrangement you are welcome to apply to become either a driver or a manager so you can enjoy these privileges.

 

[Starmill]

Yes you can go on strike for that reason, if the act of managers driving trains is a breach of agreements. Unions and management agree to things (this works both ways) and if people don't stick to these then it's a reason for a dispute. That's how it works and if you are jealous of this arrangement you are welcome to apply to become either a driver or a manager so you can enjoy these privileges.

There are lots of posts explicitly saying that LNER didn't give this commitment.

If you're going to be bitter about it then you're very unlikely to get very far in a debate.

 

[island]

Yes you can go on strike for that reason, if the act of managers driving trains is a breach of agreements.

No such agreement exists at LNER, and even if it did, like I said earlier in the thread, this sort of nonsensical argument doesn't wash in any modernised industry.

 

[whoosh]

Only because London Overground have given drivers a commitment that managers for cover will be used in a specific way.

Right. So it depends what LNER T&Cs are.

My TOC is similar to London Overground in regard to managers driving trains, and East Midlands was changed at a pay deal in EMT days (and a court case over unofficial action on a 'barbecue Sunday'), - presumably because the boat had been rocked somewhat and the company tried their hand and the union offered appeasement!

 

[bengley]

If you don't know what people are arguing for, then ask them. Making up an obviously weak argument and dismissing it is the strawman fallacy.

Some of the outdated working practices in parts of the railway industry include:

• Refusal to use electronic means such as iPads to receive communications such as late notices or TSLs
• Staff members claiming an entitlement to restart the duration of a break if a manager speaks to the staff member during the break, even as little as saying hello
• Claiming of "walking time" of 10-15 minutes for distances that can be covered in less than two
• Strict demarcation of locations where work will be carried out where there is no rationale or benefit to the business
• Demanding money for use of scanning equipment to read e-tickets
• Refusing to use videoconferencing technology such as Zoom for meetings
• Refusing rest day working and then objecting to other competent employees working those rest days
• Claiming of paid time off every six months to check that the staff member's health hasn't been adversely impacted by the microwave in the break room

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not state that all or any of these practices are in place at LNER or any specific TOC, and I will not respond to seriatim refutation or rebuttal. I am citing them as examples of categories of behaviour that belong in the history books.

Refusal to use electronic means such as iPads to receive communications such as late notices or TSLs - most companies use electronic means for this. I don't know what the agreement is at LNER.

Staff members claiming an entitlement to restart the duration of a break if a manager speaks to the staff member during the break, even as little as saying hello - This doesn't happen, I can assure you.

Claiming of "walking time" of 10-15 minutes for distances that can be covered in less than two - this isn't accurate. Walking time isn't 'claimed', it's timed in diagrams and is timed to the fattest, slowest driver so they can get to the messroom and take their legally required break for the minimum required length of time.

Strict demarcation of locations where work will be carried out where there is no rationale or benefit to the business - not sure what you mean by this? Train crew are required to book on at their depot as required by their employer. Not a union thing.

Demanding money for use of scanning equipment to read e-tickets - not a driver issue.

Refusing to use videoconferencing technology such as Zoom for meetings - I don't know where this has been refused but I have certainly used it myself many times.

Refusing rest day working and then objecting to other competent employees working those rest days - managers are very often not particularly good at driving trains competently despite being 'competent'. Very often managers are placed into their role because it's less risky than letting them drive trains all the time. Would you want to share the road with someone nearby who isn't very good at driving?

Claiming of paid time off every six months to check that the staff member's health hasn't been adversely impacted by the microwave in the break room - this is a fallacy and doesn't happen.

 

[Starmill]

Right. So it depends what LNER T&Cs are.

My TOC is similar to London Overground in regard to managers driving trains, and East Midlands was changed at a pay deal in EMT days (and a court case over unofficial action on a 'barbecue Sunday'), - presumably because the boat had been rocked somewhat and the company tried their hand and the union offered appeasement!

You were contradicting a post that specifically said that's not a commitment LNER have given. I really don't understand what's so difficult about this.

If the posts saying so are wrong please take that up directly, don't just keep replying "well actually, it depends".

 

[Jamesrob637]

LNER do run during strikes, though, don't they? So some stuff will run, just not a full timetable.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I genuinely don't understand how Mr Horne- a resounding failure at EMT and then at the controls when Virgin/Stagecoach trashed EastCoast's years of hard work- wasn't robustly ejected the day OLR took over. It's been interesting to watch VTEC/LNER from afar, seeing how staff morale has been driven right over the cliff.

Indeed amuses me how LNER have been given accolade after accolade by politicians and the railway press as the way to run the railway yet its all a veneer. It quite frankly should be a warning to Haigh that OLR and its army of expensive consultants aren't the solution. Also with a private operator she can mud sling aka Cross Country but that isn't open to her with OLR.

I would certainly hope she has no desire to internalise anymore operators until GBR is properly established.

 

[Broucek]

Some people on this board have no idea how terribly, terribly badly this news is landing with people outside the rail industry...

And some of the justifications for the strike on here are, frankly, astonishing. "I won't drive the train and I don't want my (suitably qualified) boss to". Really?!!

And of course it's not management that suffers from the strike - just the travelling public

 

[800001]

LNER do run during strikes, though, don't they? So some stuff will run, just not a full timetable.

Normally 30-40% of timetable

 

[Starmill]

Normally 30-40% of timetable

Indeed. And probably less now because of the large number of days affected, and because it's two days in a row.

 

[yorksrob]

Some people on this board have no idea how terribly, terribly badly this news is landing with people outside the rail industry...

And some of the justifications for the strike on here are, frankly, astonishing. "I won't drive the train and I don't want my (suitably qualified) boss to". Really?!!

And of course it's not management that suffers from the strike - just the travelling public

I agree to an extent. It's certainly a bad time to call a strike. The optics are bad.

Given that the pay issue seems to have been sorted, a period of stability and growth would be useful.

But then as a passenger, I don't trust LNER management at the moment.

 

[ainsworth74]

Indeed. And probably less now because of the large number of days affected, and because it's two days in a row.

There's also diversions via Carlisle on some if those weekends as well which will complicate matters.

 

[bengley]

Some people on this board have no idea how terribly, terribly badly this news is landing with people outside the rail industry...

And some of the justifications for the strike on here are, frankly, astonishing. "I won't drive the train and I don't want my (suitably qualified) boss to". Really?!!

And of course it's not management that suffers from the strike - just the travelling public

If you hit someone in your train and killed them, which is a distressing incident to be involved in, wouldn't you want there to be a manager available to come and meet you and offer you the support you may need? This would appear to be a big part of the reason for the dispute. No managers available because they're all out driving trains, which isn't their job.

 

[greyman42]

Whatever the rights or wrongs of this, did no-one consider that doing this just a few days after announcing a pay deal and 'an end to strikes' is a total PR disaster? This sort of thing is utterly awful for the image of the railway in the eyes of the general public.

Regarding a PR disaster, ASLEF could not care less about the public.

 

[Topological]

If you hit someone in your train and killed them, which is a distressing incident to be involved in, wouldn't you want there to be a manager available to come and meet you and offer you the support you may need? This would appear to be a big part of the reason for the dispute. No managers available because they're all out driving trains, which isn't their job.

I suspect in the event that a driver (manager or otherwise) was needed to provide comfort to another driver who had been involved in such an accident then the public would be understanding (possibly even some of the train that driver was going to be driving).

However, not having the driver (manager or otherwise) drive a train because they "might" be needed for an incident that has not actually happened seems like an expensive luxury that could be dispensed with.

I would have thought that professional support would be more valuable than a driver manager, but my industry is slightly different.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This certainly also reinforces the decision to defer the Dec24 timetable enhancement that was clearly unachievable without worsening this situation further and probably now sees it kicked into the long grass for several years if ever.