No Trains on Boxing Day

[JKP]

Although the extra "bank holiday" in Scotland is St Andrews day, which was introduced in 2006. In my experience virtually no-one seems to observe it, no doubt in part because banks aren't actually obliged to close on St Andrews day, and employers aren't obliged to give staff the day off: https://www.gov.scot/publications/bank-holidays/. So it's not really much of a bank holiday, more just a bit of ScoGov flag-waving.

Although 2nd January is a bank holiday in Scotland, Easter Monday isn't. So if you ignore the St Andrews day holiday - which seems to be generally the case - then Scotland has the same number of bank holidays as England does. Personally I'd rather have had the extra day off in the spring rather than in the middle of winter, in Scotland. But I'm retired now so every day is a holiday for me anyway

The local or public holidays in Scotland are another matter. They seem to be observed in a rather haphazard fashion; for example in Edinburgh the council offices are closed on a local public holiday, bin collections don't happen, and Lothian Buses run a reduced service. Some shops - mainly locally owned and run ones - stay closed, others don't. None of my employers ever gave me the day off, though ☹️ They also don't seem to be particularly widely publicised: the first inkling I usually get is when Lothian buses announces that they will be running a reduced service, about a week beforehand.

I would add that Bank Holidays in Scotland are generally that, for Banks and similar financial institutions only. Each Burgh or town has its own local holidays. The advantage is that buses usually run a full weekday service on Bank Holidays over Easter and in the summer. Indeed I notice that schools local to me open for the summer term on Easter Monday.

 

[bramling]

Rather than just relying on hypothetical "first hand" testimony, I feel that it would be good to hear actual first hand testimony from people at the relevant TOCs who have direct experience of working this day.

I can well imagine there being more in the way of issues on Boxing Day. For starters there’s going to be an element of alcohol which is going to be more pronounced than on an average working weekday. Secondly there will be an element of people going to events, especially sporting ones, and that can bring issues. And if behaviour on the roads this year is any indicator (I will add the caveat that my experience is solely in the London & south east area) then for some reason there seems to be an abundance of aggression, perhaps some weird post-Covid leftover.

Generally on LU, which does run on Boxing Day, afternoon and evening is regarded as a bit of a problematic time. Not massively, but certainly one to be wary of. It’s also a day where BTP support is even more thin on the ground than normal.

 

[yorkie]

I can well imagine there being more in the way of issues on Boxing Day. For starters there’s going to be an element of alcohol which is going to be more pronounced than on an average working weekday. Secondly there will be an element of people going to events, especially sporting ones, and that can bring issues. And if behaviour on the roads this year is any indicator (I will add the caveat that my experience is solely in the London & south east area) then for some reason there seems to be an abundance of aggression, perhaps some weird post-Covid leftover.

Generally on LU, which does run on Boxing Day, afternoon and evening is regarded as a bit of a problematic time. Not massively, but certainly one to be wary of. It’s also a day where BTP support is even more thin on the ground than normal.

Is it really worse than on a Saturday leading up to Christmas? Or even comparable?

Edit: according to my sources within LU, there are no particular concerns around Boxing Day.

 

[Horizon22]

Well the North downs line has had a 5 day weekday only closure around the late February half term.

Also another one I think was in a previous half term period.

Engineering works don't all have to happen at Christmas.

They don’t but then I’ll await the thread in 2 months time when people start complaining about how their commute has been badly affected and they can’t see friends and family and why can’t it be done in the holidays…

There is never an ideal time to do engineering works just a compromise “least worst” time.

The opportunity to take a larger block around probably the only guaranteed day without trains (Xmas Day) and how the schedules work is obviously an incredibly important aspect of the closures. You can do more with a 72h block than 3 24h blocks.

 

[infobleep]

There are no trains anywhere on the network on Xmas day, other than engineering trains. On Boxing Day it’ll vary. Some will be lines which are four tracked such as the BML, EL on the west and eastern sections, so two lines can remain open while the other pair is worked on.

Some jobs, eg this year’s MML blockade, will require complete closure, and it’ll still make sense to schedule them over Xmas, hence no EL line, and no trains to or from Luton airport this year. The alternative would be long blockades over Easter, the August bank holiday etc.,potentially disrupting far more people in the case of airport services.

I didn't mean Christmas day but I did say Christmas. I actually just meant Boxing Day and I guess I'm basing my comments on the Brighton to London Victoria line which is two tracks south of Three Bridges but gets a boxing day service south of Three Bridges.

I do appreciate engineering work is perfect for the Christmas period but I wasn't aware of any on the North Downs Line affecting Reading to Gatwick Airport this year.

But as I said, that service only uses 3 car trains, so there might not be justifiable demand.

 

[The Planner]

But it’s not cheaper though, is it? Tonight, I’m returning to Manchester using British Airways because Avanti West Coast wanted such eye-watering fares for a direct train from London. Says it all.

It makes it cheaper for Network Rail, no timetabled trains, no Schedule 4 to pay.

 

[bramling]

Is it really worse than on a Saturday leading up to Christmas? Or even comparable?

I said not massively, but perhaps enough to be irritating. A bit of alcohol and a dose of arrogance, especially when difficulties arise.

Generally LU doesn’t seem to be short on drivers being prepared to work Boxing Day, but worth noting they are nowadays paid a quite substantial premium for doing so.

I remain unconvinced that there is that much demand. I’ve seen a few busy trains today on particular and predictable flows, but outweighed by some very empty ones. I’m sure this would be even more pronounced on Boxing Day.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It makes it cheaper for Network Rail, no timetabled trains, no Schedule 4 to pay.

Oh, well I’m delighted it’s cheaper for them.

 

[The Planner]

Oh, well I’m delighted it’s cheaper for them.

NR will be as it means money for other jobs.

 

[muz379]

It isn't just about drivers & guards , there are the other requirements behind the scenes for trains to be able to run ,station staff , revenue staff , engineering staff to prep trains / shunt them around yards etc , control staff , signallers , moms , S&T / Pway fault teams .

A lot of people point to retail / sports venues and hospitality being open during that time . For me I wouldn't have any issue if those were closed , let everyone working there have more time off to enjoy with their families . Really aside from essential emergency services I wouldn't have any issue if everything else was closed boxing day . I bet I wouldn't have much look trying to book an MOT on boxing day , or trying to book a house viewing or trying to get a dentist appointment . It is far from a normal day for the majority of the country . Go out for a walk , enjoy some fresh air or sit inside and eat Chocolate until you are ready to be sick whatever floats your boat .

Anyway I can just see the posts on here calling it a national discrace if/when something were to happen that would then require rail replacement , getting busses is already a struggle for the industry at the best of times , I doubt there would be a huge pool of willing drivers to come and drive rail replacement coaches boxing day .

How are signalers sorted during Christmas/boxing day. Theirs still a few engineering trains running on lines with no passenger trains. Are they ran with reduced staffing or is it an ordinary day?

Firstly it will be decided what locations need to be open and when , most boxes close the early hours of the morning Christmas day and reopen early hours of the 27th , some generally larger locations have some staff coverage the whole time usually an SSM at the very least . Ops control and electrical control rooms also also have a constant prescence for the whole period .

If a location is required to be open then staff that would be rostered to that day are rostered to it . My area does let people book leave upto the usual quota and if someone really didn't want to work and someone else was prepared to volunteer then that would be permitted with it being a bank holiday/subject to additional rates the extra enhancement just goes to whoever works .

Engineering trains / on track machines etc can move around within the limits of an engineering possession even if the signalboxes are closed . The signal box just has to be open when the possession is granted and given up . So you can grant a possession Christmas eve and it can be given it up in the early hours of the 27th . And the box can be closed between those times unless another operation reason requires it to be open .

There is never an ideal time to do engineering works just a compromise “least worst” time.

The opportunity to take a larger block around probably the only guaranteed day without trains (Xmas Day) and how the schedules work is obviously an incredibly important aspect of the closures. You can do more with a 72h block than 3 24h blocks.

Exactly this , some stuff cannot be done in 12hr/24hr blocks or some stuff just isn't attempted in them either because the risk of overrunning is too high . Inevitably certain jobs will require longer blocks . Whenever there are large blockades someone is going to be inconvenienced either way .

And those that aren’t in safety critical roles can probably just rock up half asleep and with a hangover with no question being asked, so at least the Christmas Day wasn’t interrupted

Fond memories of my younger years working a retail job as a student and being forced to turn up boxing day 3 years in a row (and we did moan about it for the record) , everyone suffering from the after effects of the usual Christmas day overindulgence , 3 hours later volunteers being sought to go home early because it turned out just like years previous nobody had any interest in buying our tat . Still management wouldn't be told , I bet the same charade goes on to this day . I also recall another retail job I briefly did in a supermarket , reopened 7am boxind day , only we didnt get a fresh food delivery until about 2pm . The morning was just filled with people coming in and moaning because we didn't have anything they wanted . We would have been better staying closed tbh .

 

[geoffk]

I seem to remember that sales used to start on New Years Day or even January 2nd. The clue was in the name "January Sales". When did it change to Boxing Day? The stuff will still be there to buy a week later. In a few days' time, we could have a thread headed "No Buses on New Year's Day".

 

[Krokodil]

No, it hasn’t. What is it that makes the customers actually different, as in - more abusive? Nothing at all - and the poster wouldn’t even know, as they don’t work Boxing Day by their own admission.

Well firstly they're not going to be any less abusive than on any other day of the year - so that's reason enough for many to not want to work an extra day. Things like race fixtures and football matches will make people less likely to want to volunteer - both because of the behaviour of the attendees and because the member of staff may wish to attend (factors which could apply on any non-rostered Saturday of course). Then consider a Northern Guard who decides to volunteer to work a Sunday. As almost no one else has volunteered to work, he's the first train to arrive after three hours of cancellations and gets the abuse as a result. Was it worth coming in to get that?

But we've already established that everyone has their price, if you offered treble time then you'd probably get enough crew for the service. But is it worth paying out both for the traincrew, and paying Network Rail to open the boxes? Less of an issue at larger panels where signallers may be in anyway to oversee possessions which might only cover part of their area, but if you're going to start opening up boxes in AB areas for a skeleton service then the cost per passenger carried will skyrocket.

Many apologies. Not working in the railway industry I didn’t know this. I am surprised this is agreed by the unions but see it as a good thing. Thank you for enlightening me.

Unions represent the staff. Staff don't like other staff cherry-picking the cushy turns for overtime. So in many areas there are penalties for agreeing to work after the daily sheets have been published (so you have seen that the rotten shifts are already covered) or withdrawing an offer after the same (as you've seen that you would have copped a horrid job).

 

[godfreycomplex]

Rather than just relying on hypothetical "first hand" testimony, I feel that it would be good to hear actual first hand testimony from people at the relevant TOCs who have direct experience of working this day.

Never had a problem myself, or witnessed the kind of behaviour described.

I sense I’m not going to get very far with this for some reason but most railway lines have a different selection of challenges from one another.

My local TOC provide Boxing Day services (and have for many years), and they tend to operate without too much incident. However, they’re totally different services with totally different passengers to (say) the ECML & WCML, so it’s a pointless comparison. Same with most, if not all, existing services, there just isn’t a sensible empirical comparison to be drawn. There hasn’t been a Boxing Day service on many service groups in the recent past so there’s nothing to compare it to in reality. All that you can do is extrapolate based on the behaviour of similar passengers on different days, which is what’s been done here. Anything else wouldn’t be a fair comparison.

 

[Haywain]

I seem to remember that sales used to start on New Years Day or even January 2nd. The clue was in the name "January Sales". When did it change to Boxing Day?

As far as I can recall in the days before shops were opening on Boxing Day (and probably the same days as no Sunday trading) the sales actually started on the 27th December.

The stuff will still be there to buy a week later.

The big fuss was because the real bargains were only to be had by the first few in to the big stores and there was always a news story about people ca,ping outside over Christmas so as to be at the front of the queue.

 

[godfreycomplex]

But wow you’re disdain for the people who pay your wages has really shone through. If you hate rail passengers that much maybe it’s time to find another job?

Why should they? Much to the disappointment of many in society rail staff aren’t indentured serfs and can feel just as frustrated and upset by being poorly treated by other people (their equals) as anyone else

 

[Haywain]

Staff don't like other staff cherry-picking the cushy turns for overtime.

It's not just about cherry picking the "best" shifts, it's also that those who take every available opportunity to work overtime not getting it at all the expense of those who only want occasional overtime (it's called equalisation because it's equalisation of opportunity).

 

[yorkie]

I sense I’m not going to get very far with this for some reason but most railway lines have a different selection of challenges from one another.

My local TOC provide Boxing Day services (and have for many years), and they tend to operate without too much incident. However, they’re totally different services with totally different passengers to (say) the ECML & WCML, so it’s a pointless comparison. Same with most, if not all, existing services, there just isn’t a sensible empirical comparison to be drawn. There hasn’t been a Boxing Day service on many service groups in the recent past so there’s nothing to compare it to in reality. All that you can do is extrapolate based on the behaviour of similar passengers on different days, which is what’s been done here. Anything else wouldn’t be a fair comparison.

OK so it's based on a fear that there would be poor behaviour, rather than actual reality.

Is there genuinely a fear that the behaviour would be worse than it is on a Saturday preceding Christmas? I would find this very difficult to believe.

I also find claims that "any attempt to manage bags is met with abuse" to be unbelieveable; indeed I have witnessed some very big bags, and large quantities of bags, being carried on this route in recent weeks (including today) and saw no hint of any abuse.

Of course, some passengers will dish out abuse, but these are very much the exception rather than the norm, and the worst occasions for it are for sporting events (including racing events, football etc; not by people who are genuine sports people, but by louts who use the sport as an excuse) and the Saturdays leading up to Christmas, along with some bank holidays with a tradition of drinking.

I can't imagine that Boxing Day would be any worse than any of those occasions, and the evidence from people who actually work those days does not support claims that Boxing Day is worse (indeed, it sounds like it's generally not anywhere near as bad!)

Note that I am not advocating any change for Boxing Day services; I am just questioning some of the claims that have been made, which don't sound realistic, and industry insiders who work for operators that do provide a service on Boxing Day have also told me that the evidence they've seen does not support these claims.

 

[jettofab]

Anyway I can just see the posts on here calling it a national discrace if/when something were to happen that would then require rail replacement , getting busses is already a struggle for the industry at the best of times , I doubt there would be a huge pool of willing drivers to come and drive rail replacement coaches boxing day .

This is the point I've been thinking about throughout this thread. How do the TOCs which do run manage disruption? Where I am it can be hard enough getting rail replacement sorted on an ordinary day in an ordinary week, I dread to think what it would be like on Boxing Day and the vitriol that would be hurled at the railway. We already see on here when storms are forecast and services end up cancelled that some people are outraged that the railway can't do anything to magic up buses or taxis that don't (or can't, in weather related disruption) want to work.

 

[dk1]

This is the point I've been thinking about throughout this thread. How do the TOCs which do run manage disruption? Where I am it can be hard enough getting rail replacement sorted on an ordinary day in an ordinary week, I dread to think what it would be like on Boxing Day and the vitriol that would be hurled at the railway. We already see on here when storms are forecast and services end up cancelled that some people are outraged that the railway can't do anything to magic up buses or taxis that don't (or can't, in weather related disruption) want to work.

That is an excellent point.

 

[yorkie]

That is an excellent point.

It's an interesting question, rather than a point in itself; perhaps someone with experience of Chiltern, Greater Anglia, Merseyrail, etc can enlighten us?

 

[AverageJoe]

I agree re trains not being singled out for Boxing Day and have no issue with there being no trains, it’s just how it is/always has been:

But wow you’re disdain for the people who pay your wages has really shone through. If you hate rail passengers that much maybe it’s time to find another job?

Not sure what the role of the person you are replying to is, but as a driver I have less interaction with passengers as some who work first line.

Although obviously I’m often around trains, platforms and stations while wearing uniform.

I often have people approach me for assistance and I can say that the majority of the time I’m dealing with the brunt of their frustration often directed at toc a don’t even work for. Or if it is something I can help them with I am spoken to like dirt with almost never a please or thank you.

Then there is the different groups of people you will find at the station from the annoying drunks and stressed and in a rush workers or shoppers.

So I can empathise with the persons comments but it doesn’t mean they don’t do a good job when they are in work.

We all receive wages from someone, and those that supply that money we might not like sometimes but we just get on with it.

Back on subject I do imagine it could be a nightmare on Boxing Day with all those football games going on and commuters so tend to be more stressed over Xmas so that combination could provide a not so pleasant working experience.

 

[muz379]

It's an interesting question, rather than a point in itself; perhaps someone with experience of Chiltern, Greater Anglia, Merseyrail, etc can enlighten us?

I dont know about the other two , but I guess Merseyrail being run on behalf of the PTE should be able to more readily arrange ticket acceptance on whatever local busses are running . And being a self contained network probably has a bit more reliability . Although weather conditions were favourable this year I am sure I recall serious issues with 3rd rail icing in previous years but that might not have been specifically boxing day it might have just been aroung this period .

 

[godfreycomplex]

OK so it's based on a fear that there would be poor behaviour, rather than actual reality.

Is there genuinely a fear that the behaviour would be worse than it is on a Saturday preceding Christmas? I would find this very difficult to believe.

I also find claims that "any attempt to manage bags is met with abuse" to be unbelieveable; indeed I have witnessed some very big bags, and large quantities of bags, being carried on this route in recent weeks (including today) and saw no hint of any abuse.

Of course, some passengers will dish out abuse, but these are very much the exception rather than the norm, and the worst occasions for it are for sporting events (including racing events, football etc; not by people who are genuine sports people, but by louts who use the sport as an excuse) and the Saturdays leading up to Christmas, along with some bank holidays with a tradition of drinking.

I can't imagine that Boxing Day would be any worse than any of those occasions, and the evidence from people who actually work those days does not support claims that Boxing Day is worse (indeed, it sounds like it's generally not anywhere near as bad!)

Note that I am not advocating any change for Boxing Day services; I am just questioning some of the claims that have been made, which don't sound realistic, and industry insiders who work for operators that do provide a service on Boxing Day have also told me that the evidence they've seen does not support these claims.

Well I don’t know your definition of an industry insider but I’ve certainly worked Boxing Day in the rail industry and I’ve seen evidence from events of the services that have run that supports both positions. Some are good, some are bad, in other words. So I can confirm that these claims are realistic.

People are stating their lived experience and their observations, they may not necessarily align with yours and those of the people you know, and I know that human nature is such that the instinct is to deny them in that case, but that doesn’t make them untrue.

Plus there hasn’t been a Boxing Day service on the ECML, or any mainline like it, in the recent past so there’s no “reality” to base a judgement on

 

[12LDA28C]

Why is that a good idea in this country but not in seemingly any other European country, or in fact many others like America or Australia? Do you think the railway has any sort of social obligation as a certain heavily subsidised public utility?

“Without affecting any passengers” - er, no, it affects millions of people every year, because there is zero service.

You're just being deliberately obtuse. There is less demand for trains on Christmas Day and Boxing Day than at other times of the year so it makes sense to carry out engineering work then, especially that which requires a full line block.

 

[AlterEgo]

You're just being deliberately obtuse. There is less demand for trains on Christmas Day and Boxing Day than at other times of the year so it makes sense to carry out engineering work then, especially that which requires a full line block.

Not at all - there is less demand overall, but the demand that is there serves a very strong social purpose.

"I'm glad we all follow Treasury's tune to save and make as much money as possible" is a self-defeating modern railway disease - if you apply the logic about "not much demand" elsewhere on the railway you'd be closing about a fifth of the network at least. Many lines make no money at all and in fact lose it hand over fist, but they are rightly kept open because the politics is that the railways serve society and not HM Treasury.

Britain is one of the only countries in the world which shuts down its railway network almost entirely across more than 48hrs of Christmas. I think anyone will have a hard time convincing me that we have it right and almost every other Christmas-observing country has it wrong. As others have alluded to, disruption payments have ossified this situation, alongside a lack of harmonisation of staff contracts - but those are obstacles and not objections to running trains at least on Boxing Day.

 

[jumble]

Yet other industries and sectors cope with staffing levels over the Christmas period without paying 3-4 times basic pay.

Some industries don't pay any extra
A relative works for a freight processor at Heathrow
Their shifts are 2 days 2 nights and 4 days off
This applies year round and if you happen to be rostered on Christmas Day you work it with as you would any other day
No overtime or day off in lieu

 

[Krokodil]

It's not just about cherry picking the "best" shifts, it's also that those who take every available opportunity to work overtime not getting it at all the expense of those who only want occasional overtime (it's called equalisation because it's equalisation of opportunity).

I know that, I was specifically talking about the penalties.

Is there genuinely a fear that the behaviour would be worse than it is on a Saturday preceding Christmas? I would find this very difficult to believe.

Does it matter? I'm pretty sure that certain operators struggled finding volunteers to work overtime on Saturday 21st too. Northern can't find overtime volunteers on any day with a "Y" in it. Boxing Day may be no worse than Saturday 21st but if you're contracted to do one and not the other, then you'll begrudgingly work the contracted one and not volunteer for the optional one.

Talk about crewing is irrelevant though. Make it voluntary and set the rate suitably high and you won't be short of staff. The real question is who pays for running what will inevitably be a loss-making service?

 

[AlterEgo]

The real question is who pays for running what will inevitably be a loss-making service?

How many of the services you work make a loss, and should we just cut those?

 

[Falcon1200]

So that’s a nine day closure, do it some other time? There is no mandatory reason for it to happen at Christmas..

There absolutely is! Far fewer commuters given that many business are shut for a full two weeks (not just two days as per the railway), no students at school or college, for example There is no other time of year when rail usage reduces to such an extent.

Oh, well I’m delighted it’s cheaper for them.

Cheaper for them, ie Network Rail, means cheaper for us, the taxpayer.

I echo the point made by others here; How many of those calling for Boxing (and Christmas Day) train services would be prepared to work those days themselves, year in year out, and on antisocial shifts at that?

 

[Krokodil]

How many of the services you work make a loss, and should we just cut those?

There's a difference between maintaining an existing service and introducing a new one.