Poor condition of Bakerloo line stock

[Silent]

Yeah I always find it nostalgic, reminds me of the 80’s/90’s video of the underground on YouTube.

 

[Thirteen]

They can, particularly if transport spending is one of the areas that comes under pressure to release funds for other priorities. The Bakerloo Line is relatively inconsequential in the grand scheme of things nowadays and it may just have to continue with what it has for the moment.

I agree they can. However a closure of the line, especially the entire line will look extremely bad on London and the UK and will further cement the view that the UK is nation on the decline, both nationally and internationally. Therefore I think it is likely the government will reluctantly stump up the funding for new trains.

Delaying new trains for few years is more likely, which I suspect would result in the Queens Park to Harrow and Wealdstone section being mothballed. TfL may use the threat of such closures as a way of putting pressure on Central government to provide the funding for new trains.

There is a time limit because of the options for the 2024 stock which would be more expensive if allowed to expire since TfL would need to do another tender. Also the fact the RVAR exemption is only until 2029 so if the Bakerloo line doesn't have new trains by then, the risk of the Bakerloo Line becoming mothballed or even closed becomes more likely.

 

[Alxxxs]

An express bus or even tram along the Edgware Road all the way to Hyde Park corner could be a helpful replacement. But given how narrow it is and the cost considerations I think it is almost impossible

 

[Bikeman78]

They can, particularly if transport spending is one of the areas that comes under pressure to release funds for other priorities. The Bakerloo Line is relatively inconsequential in the grand scheme of things nowadays and it may just have to continue with what it has for the moment.

Letting the existing stock go to rot isn't great though. Every car I have been on recently has been extensively tagged. If New York can keep it under control, I don't see why London can't. I wonder of the amount of tagging has increased or whether TfL has reduced the amount of cleaning. Why do you think the Bakerloo is inconsequential? What has replaced it?

 

[Russel]

Letting the existing stock go to rot isn't great though. Every car I have been on recently has been extensively tagged. If New York can keep it under control, I don't see why London can't. I wonder of the amount of tagging has increased or whether TfL has reduced the amount of cleaning. Why do you think the Bakerloo is inconsequential? What has replaced it?

92 Stock on the Central isn't much better for tags.

 

[Mikey C]

TfL needs to get a grip on this, the system is in a bad downward spiral, and letting the graffiti scumbags " win" by allowing their work to linger just encourages them.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

First run out for a long time today - the stock looks very worn internally - efforts made to clean the extensal tagging but the external grime was preety poor to say the least. No washer at Stonebridge Park ? (yes - I know it is cold overnight with -2 or so ........)

 

[Central]

StonebridgePk reversers are supposed to be washed,also depot stablers are supposed to be washed.Don’t know if it’s changed since I was there in the 90s,two or three trains were exterior cleaned overnight.

 

[Chriso]

It’s the same tags on the 72 and 92 stock HTB, Pilot, Odea. They are all north west based and are well aware that stock has no cctv hence the mets not getting hit internally as much.

Why TFL don’t pull their finger out and clean them asap as in the past is beyond me but due to this even the floors are now getting plastered as they know it will stay for weeks on end.

Really poor from TFL management

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The great unwashed 72 tube stock – London Rail

 

[A60stock]

Is there an update on when this issue will be addressed?

 

[birchesgreen]

72ts trains i were on at the weekend were in an appalling condition, covered in graffiti inside and out. It was like being on the NY subway in the 80s.

 

[anthony263]

I can see the government stumping up for the bare minimum of trains and I won't be surprised to see it cut back to Stonebridge park instead of up to Harrow and Wealdstone probably to free up a certain number of units required daily

 

[Nym]

I can see the government stumping up for the bare minimum of trains and I won't be surprised to see it cut back to Stonebridge park instead of up to Harrow and Wealdstone probably to free up a certain number of units required daily

I think I mentioned before in this thread, Engineering pushed for this a while back to free up units for RVAR work, including a rolling stock plan for using either D78 units displaced or leasing 319s from Porterbrook to run Harrow to Queens Park shuttles and remove everything north of Queens Park except the Stonebridge Terminators, would have freed up 5 units back then.

The TfL sponsors were not happy with the idea.

(Still, these were the same sponsors that had some 'ideas' about resurrecting a special trailer to help with RVAR conversion, but as soon as an actual plan on how to do it by creating a new 3 car unit came about, "Not my idea" syndrome kicked in and they were no longer interested).

 

[SolomonSouth]

Honestly, aside from the 2009 stock and S stock, all underground stock could do with a replacement - especially the 72 and 92 stock which constantly break down. Other stock such as the 73, 95 and 96 stock is still in terrible shape and is getting quite old. DLRs too.

 

[sh24]

Honestly, aside from the 2009 stock and S stock, all underground stock could do with a replacement - especially the 72 and 92 stock which constantly break down. Other stock such as the 73, 95 and 96 stock is still in terrible shape and is getting quite old. DLRs too.

The 95 and 96 stock is a bit grubby but otherwise in good shape. Hopefully CLIP will improve the 92 stock…if it ever delivers on the full fleet.

The Bakerloo has reached the point where normal people are boarding and commenting on the state of it. I had one train at the weekend with the rear 4 cars (heading southbound) covered in tags on the outside and in.

 

[SolomonSouth]

The 95 and 96 stock is a bit grubby but otherwise in good shape. Hopefully CLIP will improve the 92 stock…if it ever delivers on the full fleet.

The Bakerloo has reached the point where normal people are boarding and commenting on the state of it. I had one train at the weekend with the rear 4 cars (heading southbound) covered in tags on the outside and in.

Weren’t the 92 stock supposed to get new motors to make them more reliable? What happened to that? Is it still going ahead or was it canceled?

 

[Dstock7080]

Weren’t the 92 stock supposed to get new motors to make them more reliable? What happened to that? Is it still going ahead or was it canceled?

still going ahead, 2 trains complete, all the details here:

1992 stock Refurbishment?

I was travelling past Derby a few days ago and saw a 1992 stock car in one of the sheds at (I assume) Bombardier. It reminded me that they were supposed to be receiving modifications but I haven’t heard much of that programme. Is there any news on what’s happening with the refurbishment? Thanks :)

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Nym]

Weren’t the 92 stock supposed to get new motors to make them more reliable? What happened to that? Is it still going ahead or was it canceled?

It’s only around 10 years late as well now… not bad going.

 

[SolomonSouth]

They are retractioning them, but aren’t there also plans to replace them soon? Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seem like a waste of money if they plan to replace them soon after retractioning them?

 

[bramling]

They are retractioning them, but aren’t there also plans to replace them soon? Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seem like a waste of money if they plan to replace them soon after retractioning them?

There are currently no actual plans to replace the 92 stock. They haven’t even yet got funding to replace the 72 stock, though it’s reasonably likely something will be announced on that soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2025 ==

Honestly, aside from the 2009 stock and S stock, all underground stock could do with a replacement - especially the 72 and 92 stock which constantly break down. Other stock such as the 73, 95 and 96 stock is still in terrible shape and is getting quite old. DLRs too.

Not sure there’s any great need to replace the 95 stock. It’s reliable, and barely past half-life. Any presentations issues are down to maintenance rather than the stock itself.

96 stock is running in to issues, but from the end-user perspective I can’t see what’s wrong with them.

 

[SolomonSouth]

There are currently no actual plans to replace the 92 stock. They haven’t even yet got funding to replace the 72 stock, though it’s reasonably likely something will be announced on that soon.

Oh OK - thanks for correcting me.

I think they definitely need replacing though. The Central line often suffers from a shortage of trains as the units constantly break down.

 

[Dstock7080]

The Central line often suffers from a shortage of trains as the units constantly break down.

Shortage of trains because they are being retractioned and refurbished.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Shortage of trains because they are being retractioned and refurbished.

Still not an ideal scenario. The bakerloo line suffers from a shortage of trains often as well.

 

[notverydeep]

(Still, these were the same sponsors that had some 'ideas' about resurrecting a special trailer to help with RVAR conversion, but as soon as an actual plan on how to do it by creating a new 3 car unit came about, "Not my idea" syndrome kicked in and they were no longer interested).

This was looked at in the early 2010s. At this point there were plenty of the ex-Victoria line 1972 Mark 1 stock cars stored, so the proposal was to form up two additional trains. These would also have allowed an increase to 24 trains per hour (tph) after the RVAR project. The plan was to use twelve ex-Victoria line cars plus UNDM 3399 (the only UNDM* in a four car 'South' unit) from an existing train. 3399 would would have been replaced by an thirteenth ex Victoria DM, bringing that unit close to the 'normal' four car specification.

The other UNDM required for the second additional train would have been 3411, then stored at Hainault un-refurbished. The latter would have been refurbished as a one off and the remaining Victoria line cars would have to have a programmed lift (overhaul). 3411 was surveyed and found to need a lot of work, be sound enough to be reused, but in the end, it was the cost of overhauling the former Victoria line cars that made the idea too expensive to be worthwhile enough and it did not get funding (and so alas, my attempt to resurrect 3411 came to nothing...). I do wonder whether 3411 still languishes at Hainault or whether it has been scrapped subsequently? Here is a view of 3411 at Hainault - apologies, I don't recall the source of this photo - but it was not taken by me.



*UNDM = Uncoupling Non-Driving Motor Car with shunter's panel.

 

[jumble]

This was looked at in the early 2010s. At this point there were plenty of the ex-Victoria line 1972 Mark 1 stock cars stored, so the proposal was to form up two additional trains. These would also have allowed an increase to 24 trains per hour (tph) after the RVAR project. The plan was to use twelve ex-Victoria line cars plus UNDM 3399 (the only UNDM* in a four car 'South' unit) from an existing train. 3399 would would have been replaced by an thirteenth ex Victoria DM, bringing that unit close to the 'normal' four car specification.

The other UNDM required for the second additional train would have been 3411, then stored at Hainault un-refurbished. The latter would have been refurbished as a one off and the remaining Victoria line cars would have to have a programmed lift (overhaul). 3411 was surveyed and found to need a lot of work, be sound enough to be reused, but in the end, it was the cost of overhauling the former Victoria line cars that made the idea too expensive to be worthwhile enough and it did not get funding (and so alas, my attempt to resurrect 3411 came to nothing...). I do wonder whether 3411 still languishes at Hainault or whether it has been scrapped subsequently? Here is a view of 3411 at Hainault - apologies, I don't recall the source of this photo - but it was not taken by me.

View attachment 176653

*UNDM = Uncoupling Non-Driving Motor Car with shunter's panel.

As I understand from a very reliable source it 3411 ended its days at Booths somewhere around July 2021

 

[Thirteen]

Honestly, aside from the 2009 stock and S stock, all underground stock could do with a replacement - especially the 72 and 92 stock which constantly break down. Other stock such as the 73, 95 and 96 stock is still in terrible shape and is getting quite old. DLRs too.

The B23s are coming this year at some point

The priorities are the 1973 stock replacement and then the 1972 stock. I would imagine sometime in the mid to late 2030s is when we'll see the 1992, 1995 and 1996 stock get their replacements, possibly with a variant of the 2024 stock or something similar.

 

[notverydeep]

As I understand from a very reliable source it 3411 ended its days at Booths somewhere around July 2021

Thanks - I presumed that it was now scrapped, I know that the ex-Victoria 1972 Mark 1s set aside are long gone...

 

[Silent]

Honestly, aside from the 2009 stock and S stock, all underground stock could do with a replacement - especially the 72 and 92 stock which constantly break down. Other stock such as the 73, 95 and 96 stock is still in terrible shape and is getting quite old. DLRs too.

Idk to me 96 look completely fine, infact outside sometimes looks cleaner than s8 stocks. The motors do sound like they have worked lot though. I recently used 95ts whilst I know mechanically they are probably in better condition than 96 ts internally they looked much more grubbier than the 96ts. I notice the plastic and floor was covered with what looks like black dust.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2025 ==

There are currently no actual plans to replace the 92 stock. They haven’t even yet got funding to replace the 72 stock, though it’s reasonably likely something will be announced on that soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2025 ==



Not sure there’s any great need to replace the 95 stock. It’s reliable, and barely past half-life. Any presentations issues are down to maintenance rather than the stock itself.

96 stock is running in to issues, but from the end-user perspective I can’t see what’s wrong with them.

The irony is that 95ts is in better condition internally but 96ts looks more cleaner and well maintained, the interior.I can even say fresher.

 

[bramling]

Idk to me 96 look completely fine, infact outside sometimes looks cleaner than s8 stocks. The motors do sound like they have worked lot though. I recently used 95ts whilst I know mechanically they are probably in better condition than 96 ts internally they liked much more grubbier than the 95ts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Mar 2025 ==


The irony is that 95ts is in better condition internally but 96ts looks more cleaner and well maintained, the interior.

Ironically, it’s generally the 95 stock that are better maintained. Not sure what’s gone wrong with the presentation recently though. The 95 stock is a better design - being the later of the two some of the issues with the 96 stocks were ironed out. The 96 stock is now starting to become a problem child, nowhere near as bad as the 92 stock, but definitely starting to go down the troublesome road. Generally the 95 stock is still a very solid performer.