What current train services would look different if certain railways hadn’t been closed?

[BayPaul]

Most of the comments here are about rural lines, which sound like they'd be almost as sleepy now as they were when Beeching wielded his axe.

Are there urban routes that would now be enjoying a 4tph metro service that would really transform a congested modern city. Things like the Mangotsfield lines in Bristol for example.

 

[The Ham]

If the line south of Nottingham through Old Darby to Melton Mowbray had remained open would some Sheffield and Nottingham to London trains have continued to run that way? Also would the Liverpool to Norwich trains have been routed that way to avoid them taking up paths on the ECML between Grantham and Peterborough?

Given that most places want services to London, then chances are that some trains to London would have run, as such the question is would running them one route over another would have been viable?

Given that local services would have been desirable (travel to Sheffield and Nottingham) it's not unreasonable to assume that through services to London would have existed (or at least a desire to have such services exist).

Of course there's other factors come to play, the big one being it's capacity as well as the frequency (attractiveness of travel by splitting services) if you split the service between two lines. For example, if there's capacity to run more services then having 2tph on one route and 1tph on another might be with doing over the existing 2tph.

Most of the comments here are about rural lines, which sound like they'd be almost as sleepy now as they were when Beeching wielded his axe.

Are there urban routes that would now be enjoying a 4tph metro service that would really transform a congested modern city. Things like the Mangotsfield lines in Bristol for example.

I would imagine that unless such lines were also linked to city centre capacity, then the likelihood would be that they would be fighting for capacity at the busy city centre platforms, which could actually mean that they were putting limits on other services.

 

[yorksrob]

If the Great Central was still open, I’ve come to imagine it as a meandering regional line rather than a north/south trunk route. I can imagine Central Trains class 170s at High Wycombe heading to Manchester calling at most stations.

I'd see it as an alternative cross country route, linking the NE&SW with the East Midlands.

In the case of the 1960s closures, it's a very consistent rule that the later the closure the more dubious it was. Caernarfon can't hold a candle in terms of closure-dubiousness though, in my opinion, to something like the East Lincs, which was definitely used by more passengers than quite a few of the lines that survived.

Very true. Pretty much everything after 1966/7 in my opinion.

None of these closures were generated by any strategic thought for the needs of the country - just the state of the national finances at the time.

Most of the comments here are about rural lines, which sound like they'd be almost as sleepy now as they were when Beeching wielded his axe.

Are there urban routes that would now be enjoying a 4tph metro service that would really transform a congested modern city. Things like the Mangotsfield lines in Bristol for example.

There's quite a web of lines in West Yorkshire between places like Bradford and Wakefield via Batley, linking lots of towns that would probably be quite popular today. The Leeds "new" line via Cleckheaton would probably be a popular commuter route (and would quadruple the TPE main line to Huddersfield.

Then there's the Wetherby route to Harrogate, which is a bit more rural but which would serve posher commuters.

In Manchester, Cheadle Heath would be a Stockport parkway to the East Midlands, as well as serving some of the suburban services taken up by the tram.

 

[Zomboid]

An optimistic view would have trains joining and splitting at Bangor with both towns having services east rather than continuing to have two-carriage services all the way through to Chester.

I don't think Holyhead would have been cut off on any case, low cost flights didn't come along until well after the political will to close lines had passed. Though by now it might be a relatively lightly used branch with things like the London trains going to Caernarfon.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

If the line from Bourne End to High Wycombe hadn’t closed, then the Aylesbury - Risborough shuttle could’ve maybe run all the way through to Maidenhead. With an EWR link from Aylesbury Vale there could even be Maidenhead - Milton Keynes.

 

[JKF]

There's quite a web of lines in West Yorkshire between places like Bradford and Wakefield via Batley, linking lots of towns that would probably be quite popular today. The Leeds "new" line via Cleckheaton would probably be a popular commuter route (and would quadruple the TPE main line to Huddersfield.

Then there's the Wetherby route to Harrogate, which is a bit more rural but which would serve posher commuters.

The trouble with the line(s) through places like Cleckheaton is that they point the wrong way, Leeds is the focal point of the network in West Yorkshire and where most people would want to travel, but that line runs at 90° to this. Though I suspect Grand Central might run that way from Bratfud with a few stops if the line was still there.

The Leeds-Wetherby would be a more attractive proposition if it cut through the suburbs of Leeds (like Roundhay way) rather than circumnavigating built-up areas and running too far to the east. Though with house building east of Leeds it could potentially serve new developments.

The line through Ripon had it been retained might be carrying some regional services like Transpennine trains, as well as some freight, but the arrangement of lines in Harrogate makes it a bit complicated, either a time penalty serving there or loss of revenue bypassing it.

 

[yorksrob]

The trouble with the line(s) through places like Cleckheaton is that they point the wrong way, Leeds is the focal point of the network in West Yorkshire and where most people would want to travel, but that line runs at 90° to this. Though I suspect Grand Central might run that way from Bratfud with a few stops if the line was still there.

The Leeds-Wetherby would be a more attractive proposition if it cut through the suburbs of Leeds (like Roundhay way) rather than circumnavigating built-up areas and running too far to the east. Though with house building east of Leeds it could potentially serve new developments.

The line through Ripon had it been retained might be carrying some regional services like Transpennine trains, as well as some freight, but the arrangement of lines in Harrogate makes it a bit complicated, either a time penalty serving there or loss of revenue bypassing it.

Yes, I agree that the Wetherby line does run further East than one would want. However I think the villages would be big for commuting.

 

[Falcon1200]

Doubt it, it was single. We have done this one before, as Chiltern did look at it. The chord at Bicester makes a lot more sense considering the line from Bicester to Oxford was there.

Indeed, although given that Risborough/Thame remained open for freight long after the through route, and passenger service, had been abolished, Chiltern might have considered serving Thame, a decent sized town (Haddenham & Thame Parkway notwithstanding!)

 

[Western Lord]

The line through Ripon had it been retained might be carrying some regional services like Transpennine trains, as well as some freight, but the arrangement of lines in Harrogate makes it a bit complicated, either a time penalty serving there or loss of revenue bypassing it.

And a rather greater loss of revenue bypassing York.

 

[PTR 444]

Most of the comments here are about rural lines, which sound like they'd be almost as sleepy now as they were when Beeching wielded his axe.

Are there urban routes that would now be enjoying a 4tph metro service that would really transform a congested modern city. Things like the Mangotsfield lines in Bristol for example.

If the urban lines in Bristol had remained open, I reckon that they would have been converted into a light rail or heavy metro route by now. A new line from Brislington (on the GWR line to Radstock and Frome) could be built through the city centre to join up with the Avonmouth Branch at Clifton Down, with one route turning left towards Severn Beach, and another turning right to towards Montpelier, then taking over the Midland route to Mangotsfield (with possible future extension to Bath).

 

[Howardh]

The obvious one near me is Bolton to Bury, so you could join up Wigan, Bolton, Bury and Rochdale and beyond, possibly taking some pressure of Manchester r/e through trains to Yorkshire.

The old Bolton Moor Lane to Manchester would be a positive for those along the line who are badly served today, but the negative means more pressure on the Castlefield corridor, or Victoria. Not sure which station in Manchester served the Bolton Moor Lane line, but I'm darned sure it doesn't exist now. Oh, what could have been!

 

[InTheEastMids]

Are there urban routes that would now be enjoying a 4tph metro service that would really transform a congested modern city. Things like the Mangotsfield lines in Bristol for example.

I'm going to put in a vote for Nottingham.
Assume the GCR is kept and built a new station at / on top of Midland for interchange. London IC use the MML as far as Loughborough then head up the GCR to Midland and terminate at Victoria.
Then there's broadly 3 metro type corridors through the city.

An East West route some combination of existing lines from EM Parkway &/or Castle Donington &/or Derby &/or Ilkeston via Toton that go through Midland towards Newark, Grantham and now lost connections to Cotgrave or Daybrook via Thorneywood.

A second broadly NW-SE route from Melton over Lady Bay Bridge into Midland then via Lenton/Radford towards Ilkeston/Heanor, or Watnall/Eastwood

A third N-S route into Nottingham from Mansfield via the GCR (these might run through to Ruddington or even Loughborough Central)

 

[MarlowDonkey]

If the line from Bourne End to High Wycombe hadn’t closed, then the Aylesbury - Risborough shuttle could’ve maybe run all the way through to Maidenhead.

Somewhat round the houses, but if Princes Risborough to Oxford had survived as well, you could have Maidenhead to Oxford via Thame.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Somewhat round the houses, but if Princes Risborough to Oxford had survived as well, you could have Maidenhead to Oxford via Thame.

Yeah that could be a thing. Finding space between Wycombe and Risborough would be a bit of a challenge though surely? Not impossible but a challenge nonetheless.

 

[Thebaz]

I have a feeling that the only train through to Weymouth left Salisbury before 04.00, but there was no return working. The train included a Waterloo-Weymouth News van.

The reason I suggest this route is because I have seen a photo in a book (I forget which one - will edit when I find it) at Broadstone and the caption says something along the lines of "something-or-other-engine on Weymouth to Salisbury service" The photo was clearly taken in daylight.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Did the Great Central need to be closed beyond Brackley? Surely there would be a better terminus than Alyesbury.

 

[Envoy]

Had Bangor > Caernarfon > Afon Wen plus Aberystwyth > Carmarthen not been closed we could now have had trains running Bangor > Caernarfon > Porthmadog > Barmouth > Dovey Junction > Aberystwyth > Lampeter > Carmarthen > Swansea and maybe even Cardiff. The more places that are linked, the more viable each section becomes.

(I see that Transport for Wales have recently had a consultation on having an express bus service running from Bangor to Carmarthen).

"Transport for Wales is working to improve connectivity between North and South Wales through considering a new express coach service between Bangor and Carmarthen. This proposed service would enhance sustainable transport options along Wales' western coast, benefiting communities, tourists, and university students throughout the region".

North to South Wales Express Coach Proposal

North to South Wales Express Coach Proposal Transport for Wales is working to improve connectivity between North and South Wales through considering a new express coach service between Bangor and Carmarthen. This proposed service would enhance sustainable transport

haveyoursay.tfw.wales

 

[AndrewE]

Had Bangor > Caernarfon > Afon Wen plus Aberystwyth > Carmarthen not been closed we could now have had trains running Bangor > Caernarfon > Porthmadog > Barmouth > Dovey Junction > Aberystwyth > Lampeter > Carmarthen > Swansea and maybe even Cardiff. The more places that are linked, the more viable each section becomes.

(I see that Transport for Wales are now consulting on having an express bus service running from Bangor to Carmarthen).

It would be nice to see that side of the Welsh circle completed, but each time this suggestion comes up it is pointed out that the trains would mainly have run empty, and if the route had survived it would almost certainly have closed in the '60s!

 

[Envoy]

It would be nice to see that side of the Welsh circle completed, but each time this suggestion comes up it is pointed out that the trains would mainly have run empty, and if the route had survived it would almost certainly have closed in the '60s!

I think too much reckoning of usage has been placed on the low population density along the western side of Wales. What should also be considered is that if such a link were re-built, that people travelling say from Shrewsbury or Newtown to Pembrokeshire would use the route. However, those travelling from Cardiff to say Bangor would still use the present route via The Marches as it would be quicker. Someone going from Swansea to Caernarfon would likely use the shorter westerly route.

 

[WAO]

If Liverpool Exchange could have survived for non-electric semi fast sprinter services to Preston, Blackpool, Wigan, Bolton, Bury Rochdale etc, a sizable market in North Liverpool and West/North Lancs could have been served far better than now.

WAO

 

[Helvellyn]

If the line south of Nottingham through Old Darby to Melton Mowbray had remained open would some Sheffield and Nottingham to London trains have continued to run that way? Also would the Liverpool to Norwich trains have been routed that way to avoid them taking up paths on the ECML between Grantham and Peterborough?

You might have seen a Nottingham-Kettering DMU service operating every couple of hours to provide rural links but I suspect that InterCity services would have still routed via Leicester to provide overall capacity/frequency London-Leicester.

The interesting thing is what might have happened at privatisation - Midland Mainline seeking to run a joint service with Central Trains with 170s to provide through London trains that way instead of via Leicester (and still provide a better London-Northants service)? Or if it had remained a Nottingham-Kettering servive provided by Central Trains and then East Midlands Trains would electrification Kettering to Corby not have happened and instead an EMR Connect service would be routed to Market Harborough or Leicester to speed up the Nottingham trains (ie first stop Market Harborough or Leicester).

 

[RT4038]

Did the Great Central need to be closed beyond Brackley? Surely there would be a better terminus than Alyesbury.

Brackley was a small market town then, and lots of empty (but pretty) countryside of green fields between there and Aylesbury. The local train service had already been withdrawn, with the semi-fasts providing a very irregular service with hardly asny passengers. Nobody would have commuted regularly to London so far out in the early 60s - a long distance commute would have been to Banbury!

 

[Helvellyn]

I've seen a couple of routes mentioned that would have had freight potential if still open, largely because of the growth of container traffic - March-Spalding and Peterborough-Northampton.

Another one is this category would have been the former Didcot-Newbury-Southampton Railway (DN&SR) that would have avoided a lot of Freightliner traffic having to route via Basingstoke and Reading, with the added bonus of relieving capacity on the two-track section of the South West Main Line (SWML) between Worting Junction and Shawford.

Trains to the North would still have to cross the SWML at Shawford to access the DN&SR, and if really needed a new link at Whitchurch could have been built to get trains up from the DN&SR onto the West of England Line to allow them to head west to Laverstock Junction near Salisbury, then down to Southampton Docks that way to avoid Southampton Central. Grade separation at Didcot would also have been needed, but you likely wouldn't have needed to do that at Reading any more either in that case.

 

[The exile]

Are there urban routes that would now be enjoying a 4tph metro service that would really transform a congested modern city. Things like the Mangotsfield lines in Bristol for example.

That one definitely (perhaps not 4tph yet) probably along with Portishead, Clevedon and the Bristol - Frome line via Radstock.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Only slightly larger and Caernarfon is much more of a tourist draw as well as being a bit of an administrative centre for the region. Ferries would only come into it the odd few times a day when they run and in any case rail/sea traffic must be pretty minimal in the era of low-cost flights. Caernarfon also has the advantage of being a shorter run from Bangor.

A bonkers idea. Tourism is, by definition, seasonal. BR got rid of seaside excursion services for a very good reason. A few months of heavy traffic in summer just doesn't justify the costs of maintaining track and rolling stock all year round.

The main arguement for Holyhead is that it's not just about Holyhead. It's about transport resiliance for the whole of Ynys Mon. Removing the rail link would leave the island wholly dependant on two two-lane road bridges, one dating back to 1826 and the other already very heavily congested and subject to closure after accidents and during high winds.

I'm not oppsed to reopening Bangor > Caernarfon but it would a far less important service than the cross-Anglesey
connection.

 

[Kite159]

Edinburgh to Inverness used to run via Kinross, but this line was closed over 50 years ago and trains were diverted via Stirling. The extant Ladybank to Perth line was reopened for passenger traffic a few years later to provide a more direct route via Fife. However, through services from Edinburgh to Inverness have reverted again to the slower and more roundabout route via Stirling for reasons that are unclear to me.

I think the Edinburgh - Inverness trains got sent via Stirling was so the Edinburgh - Perth services could be more uniform hourly service calling at many stations in Fife when ScotRail axed the Edinburgh - Glenrothes with Thornton via Kirkcaldy trains during the post Covid timetable of a thousand cuts.

Previously the Edinburgh - Perth trains were semifast in Fife (like the Edinburgh - Dundee service* (can't quite remember if it was these which extended to Arbroath or if it was a train from Glasgow).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Brackley was a small market town then, and lots of empty (but pretty) countryside of green fields between there and Aylesbury. The local train service had already been withdrawn, with the semi-fasts providing a very irregular service with hardly asny passengers. Nobody would have commuted regularly to London so far out in the early 60s - a long distance commute would have been to Banbury!

Ah, interesting. Looks like the Great Central really was doomed

 

[Zomboid]

Ah, interesting. Looks like the Great Central really was doomed

There was no need for it when it was built, never mind when traffic started declining.

 

[daodao]

There was no need for it when it was built, never mind when traffic started declining.

It would have been useful to retain the ex-GC section from Banbury via Woodford Halse and Rugby to just south of Countesthorpe, where it could have been diverted via the former Midland Railway Rugby-Leicester line to run into Leicester (London Road) station. This would have provided a direct connection from the East Midlands and points further north to Oxford/Reading/Hampshire, avoiding Birmingham.

 

[geoffk]

If the urban lines in Bristol had remained open, I reckon that they would have been converted into a light rail or heavy metro route by now. A new line from Brislington (on the GWR line to Radstock and Frome) could be built through the city centre to join up with the Avonmouth Branch at Clifton Down, with one route turning left towards Severn Beach, and another turning right to towards Montpelier, then taking over the Midland route to Mangotsfield (with possible future extension to Bath).

And parts of the Harbour Railway could have been included, especially the line behind Temple Meads which went under Redcliff churchyard, then turning across Prince Street bridge to the Centre.