johnnycache
Member
- Joined
- 3 Jan 2012
- Messages
- 421
Thank you. Is the quotation from the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement?
Can you explain how they can do that, given Condition 10 of the NRCoC clearly states:If so much arguing between both sides occurs, Southern will inevitably change the T&C's of their "Southern Only" tickets and make it clearer that they are not valid on GEX services or new restrictions might be added. Then people might regret so much open debate about this issue!
NRCoC said:10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.
Can you explain how they can do that, given Condition 10 of the NRCoC clearly states:
For example a passenger holding a Southern Only CDS from London Terminals to Chichester (£24.10) is "restricted to travel in the trains of the Southern Railway Limited Train Company", agreed? This is then valid, as per the Routeing Guide, on all permitted routes providing travel is in the trains of Southern. So the customer can take the 1730 or whatever London Victoria to Brighton, which some people purport to be operated by a Train Company that does not exist but is in fact operated by Southern, and then another train from Brighton to Chichester.
Can you please tell me, given the current terms of the NRCoC, how what you suggest may happen would be achieved?
Any attempts to get the NRCoC changed in a material way would require a Consultation and would be robustly opposed.
I agree the first paragraph could be inserted into the restriction text, however the 2nd paragraph is an instruction which would not go in the restriction text (and there is no such thing as a Gatwick Express ticket) but this could only be done as a time restriction, and therefore would only be practicable at certain times. It would not be practicable to list about 50 trains in each direction in the restriction text!Easy,
A new restriction code may be introduced (or simply extra wording added to the existing restrictions) to all Southern only tickets, saying something like:
Any Southern train except: (a list of all Gatwick Express trains inserted here) between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport.
Any Passengers wishing to travel on Gatwick Express services between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport will need to purchase a separate Gatwick Express ticket.
Quite clear isn't it? This will not mean a change of NRCOC, but just an added restriction, which Southern are perfectly entitled to add.
I agree the first paragraph could be inserted into the restriction text, however the 2nd paragraph is an instruction which would not go in the restriction text (and there is no such thing as a Gatwick Express ticket) but this could only be done as a time restriction, and therefore would only be practicable at certain times. It would not be practicable to list about 50 trains in each direction in the restriction text!
Also this solution only works (if the longest restriction text ever counts as working) for Off Peak tickets. Your next task is to tell me how a Cambridge to Brighton Anytime Day Single costing £29.10 (NFM10 price) routed +Southern & NXEA could be restricted? There is, by definition, no restriction text applicable to Anytime tickets.
"Operated by Southern" - yes. A Southern service? No. Because it is a separate trading name. Hardees restaurants in America trade as Hardees in the East and Carl's Jr. in the West of the country. Can you use vouchers for Hardees specifically in Carl's Jr.? No. Southern is not the only example of this happening. Trading names are everywhere.
Ohh yes, forgot about High Speed 1. Perfect example! Same company too. Well holding company. Erm...
Yes but there's a routing restriction on those tickets, not a TOC restriction.
Yes, because these are made clear at the time of booking, no terms which are not advertised to the consumers at the forming of the contract are applicable to that contract. No customer has access to the Manual - therefore this can not apply.Transportphoto - nor do you have access to the airline industry's fare manuals! But you comply with the conditions under which they are sold to you.
Sorry - It has changed - it merged into the Southern Railway franchise in 2007, until then it was a separate franchise (at that point ran by National Express).Nope, but Gatwick is where I started my career so I learned the fares process to the letter back in 1998 as it was so ambiguous and so complex. It hasn't changed APART from the extension services on the Brighton route.
It shows a non stop service between GTW and VIC, it may show that it is operated by Gatwick Express, if it does it is wrong, it is operated by Southern Railway Limited - under the trade name of Gatwick Express. Soutern's network map shows the non stop service, it is a map of all services operated by Southern, therefore it is operated by Southern.The map I was describing was figuratively speaking.................... But as you raise it, the "NSE" map does show Gatwick Express as a separate service.
'Let off' what? If this refers to the acceptance of SN only tickets on the non stop service as it is a SN service. The tickets are valid, no arguments really :roll: Obviously by not charging a new ticket, they are accepting this."Let off" is the word, because you *are* in the wrong! I'm sorry, that's quite obvious. (See below).
This is your opinion.If you don't recognise the term, then you're not disputing the situation, you're ignoring it on purpose in my view.
What has this got to do with the validity of tickets?Actually service groups are as many as 40 on Southern. All are defined revenue streams as per Schedule 4 of the Track Access Contract. Sub-sectors of "Sector 82" (the numeric Sector Code allocated to South Central franchises) are actually four, not three. 01 - Gatwick Express, 06 - South London Metro, 07 - Sussex Coast, 19 - Departmental/Other.
Gatwick Express is a separate Train Operating Company as shown in Appendix C of the NRCoC, albeit as a trading name of Southern.
Exactly, you can't dispute it if you agree with it! :roll:I don't dispute what Peter Lepper has told you. That is the truth.
Usually with an airline you book to a specific flight don't you, this situation does not arise in the airline industry.BUT, looking again at the airline industry. BMI and BMIbaby are two separate airlines, trading names of the same primary holding company. One airlines' tickets are not valid on the other.
But what's to stop Southern implementing the same routing restriction on their tickets? I've written an example above.
Exactly, there is no other way Southern could achieve it (without getting the DfT to agree to a material change) which means that it could not apply to Anytime tickets.I agree that it would be complicated and long, but I can't think of another way to do it!
This is getting silly. By that logic, a London to Peterborough Any Permitted ticket is an "East Coast" ticket, and perhaps more alarmingly a London to Birmingham Any Permitted ticket would be Virgin ticket.I don't agree with you saying there is no such thing as a Gatwick express ticket, of course there is, it may just have a different name. If you were to ask at a ticket office for a Gatwick express ticket then there are different fares applicable than to just a standard Southern service, so in effect you can buy a Gatwick express ticket.
HS1 is a geographical route. Unfortunately there are 2 flaws with this plan:Something interesting to bring into the mix is how SouthEastern trains have "+HS1" routing on tickets, this is something that Southern could add to prevent Southern only or NXEA&Connections trains tickets being used on Gatwick Express services.
1) This does not comply with Condition 10, and 2), you already said it; it's too long.How about a route: NXEA&Southern not Gat Exp (Ok this might be too long to be printed on the ticket, but I'm sure you get the idea)
How is that taking the mick?I admit it's very complex, and I think Southern should be more ambiguous about where the Gatwick Express stands in relation to their standard services. I don't want to stand up for Southern, I just don't agree with people trying to take the Mick and saying all Southern tickets are valid on the Gatiwck express!
Nothing to stop it. When does the new High Speed line from Gatwick to Victoria open? Could be the solution in, what, 2030?But what's to stop Southern implementing the same routing restriction on their tickets? I've written an example above.
Hardly, that's a geographical restriction and can be excessed in the usual way.Ohh yes, forgot about High Speed 1. Perfect example! Same company too. Well holding company. Erm...
Ohh yes, forgot about High Speed 1. Perfect example! Same company too. Well holding company. Erm...
no arguments really
But the Conditions of Carriage state that tickets may be restricted to travel in certain "Train Companies", not "entities" or "trading names" or "service groups" or "sector groups" or "any old tat that an operator makes up"! So the crucial question that we asked the DfT, to settle this, was whether or not Gat Ex (and Stan Ex) are TOCs for the purposes of NRCoC Condition 10. The DfT gave the conclusive answer, and that has been stated on here several times. One of the FOI requests can be found here.To say that is rather silly. There is an argument to be had on both sides. Gatwick Express is not a company, and therefore, logically, cannot be a train operating company. That is what you are arguing. GX and Southern will undoubtedly argue that the Conditions of Carriage recognise them as separate entities. So there are arguments to be had until a conclusion is reach (presumably either a test case, or the DfT making their own decision).
No they can't, as that would be a crazy restriction and only rail enthusiasts would understand it. It would also bar around half of the off peak Brighton Express trains that are also operated by 442s.Suppose they could add a new restriction:
"Not valid on Class 442 or Class 460 trains between London Victoria and Gatwick Airport".
Train company is defined in Appendix A quite clearly:No, I read Appendix C and see how they define the word "Company" as they should when using a generic term to describe lots of different trading partners (as National Rail as an umbrella covers). Appendix C shows the companies. I don't know how it can be made any clearer?
The only company holding a Licence is Southern Railway Limited. Therefore any ticket restricting travel to Southern trains only MUST be valid on ALL trains operated by Southern Railway Limited.(q) Train Company means a company operating passenger railway services which
is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets under a condition of the
Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation. A list of these
companies can be found in Appendix C. Train Companies means all or more
than one of these Companies;
Agreed, and I doubt it would be on the top of the DfT's agenda anyway!Exactly, there is no other way Southern could achieve it (without getting the DfT to agree to a material change) which means that it could not apply to Anytime tickets.
No, as the London to Peterborough Any Permitted ticket can be used on any TOC via the route that the Routing guide permits. Similarly the London to Birmingham Any Permitted ticket also follows this logic. This has nothing to do with "TOC only" ticket restrictions or premium fares such as Gatwick Express.This is getting silly. By that logic, a London to Peterborough Any Permitted ticket is an "East Coast" ticket, and perhaps more alarmingly a London to Birmingham Any Permitted ticket would be Virgin ticket.
I agree, although the point about terminology is moot, as it hs nothing to do with the debate, one cannot be expected to use the "correct" term 100% of the time!I think that such terminology should definitely be opposed, and actually causes more confusion for passengers. However I agree that if someone asked for one of these products, if there was no TOC specific product the clerk would issue a ticket that was valid by that TOC.
Even so, there is still nothing wrong with a new Routing being created, regardless of both entities using the same tracks. In this case the new routing would be just to clarify the terms of the ticket.HS1 is a geographical route. Unfortunately there are 2 flaws with this plan:
1) The fast lines are used by nearly all scheduled fast trains between East Croydon & Victoria
2) The fast lines follow the same geographic route as the slow lines.
Therefore, a geographic routeing is not possible.
The problem is that if a debate like this blows into a nationwide argument, then Southern may just chose to register Gatwick Express as a new TOC with the DfT or some sort of similar action like adding extra restrictions that would make all the ticket validity arguments invalid.1) This does not comply with Condition 10, and 2), you already said it; it's too long.
I do not know the specifics of validity of NXEA tickets on Stansted Express. Every arrangement between TOC's and their trading entities may be different, so even if Stansted Express were lax with accepting other tickets, that does not mean that Southern and Gatwick Express will be the same!How is that taking the mick?
Is saying NXEA tickets are valid on Stansted Express also "taking the mick"? If not, why not? and if it is, how so?
I am not going to respond to post #95 as it is unanswerable and riddled with contradictions and does not adequately answer any of the points I raised earlier. Sorry.
Even so, there is still nothing wrong with a new Routing being created, regardless of both entities using the same tracks. In this case the new routing would be just to clarify the terms of the ticket.
This is quite fundamental. A route defines the geographical location of the tracks used by the train. You cannot have two different routeings using the same physical tracks. No-one would understand what was meant.
I don't follow.No, as the London to Peterborough Any Permitted ticket can be used on any TOC via the route that the Routing guide permits. Similarly the London to Birmingham Any Permitted ticket also follows this logic. This has nothing to do with "TOC only" ticket restrictions or premium fares such as Gatwick Express.
e.g. A Gatwick to London Terminals Anytime Day Single might be £14.90 (2011 price?). Just because it doesn't say "Not Gat Exp" on it doesn't make it valid on the Gatwick Express!
Well, no we can't always use correct terms but we should try to, as otherwise confusion results. In this case, the ticket that Southern want you to buy to travel with Gatwick Express is routed "Any Permitted". This does, of course, give FCC a share of the revenue, but Southern would rather some of the revenue for a more expensive ticket went to FCC it seems. I guess the ORCATS distribution is such that FCC get less than the difference in price between Southern Only and Any Permitted.I agree, although the point about terminology is moot, as it hs nothing to do with the debate, one cannot be expected to use the "correct" term 100% of the time!
Please suggest a routeing. There are 2 types of routeing: geographical routes and TOC specific. Given that Gatwick Express is not a TOC, and given that all the Victoria to Gatwick trains use the same route, I don't think it is possible.Even so, there is still nothing wrong with a new Routing being created, regardless of both entities using the same tracks. In this case the new routing would be just to clarify the terms of the ticket.
Southern can't do that.The problem is that if a debate like this blows into a nationwide argument, then Southern may just chose to register Gatwick Express as a new TOC with the DfT or some sort of similar action like adding extra restrictions that would make all the ticket validity arguments invalid.
That's a cop out though. They should be the same! If you are using the Appendix C argument to say that Gatwick Express is a TOC, then the same argument would apply to Stansted Express. They are listed in the same way.I do not know the specifics of validity of NXEA tickets on Stansted Express. Every arrangement between TOC's and their trading entities may be different, so even if Stansted Express were lax with accepting other tickets, that does not mean that Southern and Gatwick Express will be the same!
But under what terms of the NRCoC is this enforceable? At the end of the day the argument is not about "Daysaves" it's about "Southern Only" tickets, of which Daysave is just one. Daysave is not the best ticket to use for the purposes of this debate however as it does cloud the issue.The DaySave arguments was what I was refering to, some posters claimed these are valid on Gatwick Express between Victoria and Gatwick Airport. Of course they are not as the terms of DaySave explicitly state the opposite.
Ridiculous; his post added nothing new and contradicted itself. How can you answer someone who states there is one company...I think that is a shame to be honest, Bendolino put some valid points forward and did their best to answer your barrage of questions. If you say it is unanswerable, I see that as accepting defeat in the argument as no posts are "unanswerable"!
There are 2 problems with this.I can't see how a passenger would be confused by Route: Southern Gat Exp and Route: Southern Not Gat Exp.
That's my opinion too (at the present time, anyway).. . . . There is an argument to be had on both sides. Gatwick Express is not a company, and therefore, logically, cannot be a train operating company. That is what you are arguing. GX and Southern will undoubtedly argue that the Conditions of Carriage recognise them as separate entities. So there are arguments to be had until a conclusion is reach (presumably either a test case, or the DfT making their own decision).
As long as Gatwick Express is still listed as a seperate company in the national rail timetable and the letters GX still appear on timetables and in web booking engines, it would appear that Gatwick Express is considered a seperate TOC, and "Southern Only" tickets aren't valid on it.
Whether it should be or not is another matter.
If Southern wanted their "Southern Only" tickets to be accepted on Gatwick Express they'd be printed "Not FCC", surely?