Split ticketing is interesting. Does anyone know when split ticketing become a useful way of saving money?
To keep the system in perspective, we must remember that 'split ticketing' is a colloquial name for obtaining a lower price for a point-to-point journey.. . . . Prior to the market approach, fares were broadly based on mileage, sometimes a notional mileage, and splitting seldom saved money.
South of Gatwick, it's a "normal" Southern service. The GatEx/Southern changeover happens by magic at Gatwick. (And featured a change of crew at one point, I believe).What I don't understand in all of this is how people are allowed to travel on the Gatwick Express trains operating south of Gatwick Airport 12 times a day with non gatwick express tickets? If the argument is that it's a Gatwick Express train and thus only Gatwick Express tickets are valid, how come you can travel on it? Never understood why Gatwick Express tickets are not issued for stations south of Gatwick. It's the Gatwick Express after all. At what point is not described as the Gatwick Express.
To play devils advocate, a train operating company does not (in my opinion) need to be a UK Limited Company (or indeed, Unlimited Company). Other forms could be LLP, partnership, sole trader, overseas entity, or unincorporated entity.Can you name the Directors of Gatwick Express and the date of their last business meeting?
What is a 'trading entity' other than a Company, Partnership, a marketing 'brand' or internal 'department'?
It says nothing about it being included either!Right...looked on the Definitive Guide (NRE) about this. It says nothing about Gatwick Express being excluded
Gatwick Express is NOT a Southern service. It may well be in the same group of companies but they are two separate brand names. (see how I didn't say TOC's there!)Description
Off peak unlimited travel on Southern services.
Look at NRE list of Special offers by Train Companies and you'll find GEx which is why it doesn't need to be listed as banned as their website still claims wrongly that they are separate companies!! We should demand NRE remove that page title as it is incorrect unless they remove GExRight...looked on the Definitive Guide (NRE) about this. It says nothing about Gatwick Express being excluded
It is.Gatwick Express is NOT a Southern service.
Same group of companies? So can you tell me the company number for Gatwick Express?It may well be in the same group of companies
Does NRCoC Condition 10 apply to TOCs or brand names?but they are two separate brand names. (see how I didn't say TOC's there!)
I agree. NRE are displaying incorrect information. I suggest emailing Chris Scoggins as head of NRE and/or Jason Durk, Head of Passenger Information. If they do not provide a satisfactory answer, refer them to the DfT for disagreeing with DfT policy (remember, ATOC would love to regulate ticketing, and act as if they do, but it is in fact the DfT who are the true regulators by law) and also refer the matter to Norman Baker MP. If he does not respond ask your own MP for further assistance.Look at NRE list of Special offers by Train Companies and you'll find GEx which is why it doesn't need to be listed as banned as their website still claims wrongly that they are separate companies!! We should demand NRE remove that page title as it is incorrect unless they remove GEx
Southern seem to think it is!Gatwick Express is NOT a Southern service. It may well be in the same group of companies but they are two separate brand names. (see how I didn't say TOC's there!)
Terms and Conditions for issue and use of the Southern Priority Seat Card said:6) ... It is only valid for journeys on services operated by Southern (which include Gatwick Express servcies).
These Terms and Conditions are Valid from September 2009 until further notice.
Yes, in this case the Company is Southern.Condition 10 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC) says that Train Companies can create dedicated tickets
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. We asked the DfT if that was the case and they told us that it is not the case. Gatwick Express is not a Train Company.The exact rules that permit this are in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (the NRCoC is itself a Schedule to that Agreement)
"Train Companies" is specially defined in the NRCoC and essentially means those entities listed in Appendix C. Since Southern Railway Ltd (trading as Southern) and Southern Railway Ltd (trading as Gatwick Express) are listed separately it seems that both are to be treated as Train Companies for the NRCoC.
I understand you are merely repeating your bosses (terrible) excuse, but it's a load of rubbish. For the purposes of this conversation, can I be the Prime Minister?This doesn't mean that they are legally separate companies just that for the purposes of the NRCoC they are to be treated as separate Train Companies.
Are you hinting that the NRCoC can refer to a Company that does not exist? If so then please cite an authoritative source where this is quoted, and one of us will then investigate further (using FOI to DfT if necessary)The meaning of the NRCoC relies on the definitions not the normal everyday use of the words.
Again, we asked the DfT and they said Gatwick Express is not a Company. Companies House agreed.If the above is accepted then Southern may create fares that are "Southern Only" which cannot be used on Gatwick Express services (which are separately identified in the timetable). Equally they can create fares that are "Not Gatwick Express" which are valid (say) on FCC and Southern but not Gatwick Express.
You fundamentally misunderstand the NRCoC.If the above is not accepted then Southern can turn to Condition 12 which says that a Train Company can create fares which restrict which trains they can be used on as long as these restrictions are made known in the "notices and publications" of the company. Therefore under this rule if Southern and Gatwick Express are treated as one company they are entitled to create fares with restrictions such as "Southern Only" and "Not Gatwick Express" as long as what is meant by those terms is spelt out.
No they aren't. Only a Southern employee would say that...My understanding is that whichever way you decide the separate train company point Southern/Gatwick Express is allowed to do what it is doing now.
Ah, that explains it.Interest declared-I work for Southern
This has gone on long enough and Southern have had their chances. Anyone here know any good media contacts?...We are well aware of the change made to the NRCoC a few months ago, and the reasons Southern did so, but this was not a "material change" and was merely to show that these brands are both the same TOC.
But we asked the DfT for clarification, one of the questions was:"Can you confirm whether Gatwick Express and Stansted Express are separate companies, as defined in Appendix A of the NRCoC?"The answer was:
I confirm that neither Stansted Express nor Gatwick Express are a Train Operating Company: Stansted Express is a trading name of the London Eastern Railway Limited Train Operating Company. Gatwick Express is a trading name of the Southern Railway Limited Operating Company.If you dispute this, I suggest you contact Peter Lepper at the DfT. However I would strongly advise against disputing it and accepting the decision.....
It could well be a pyhrric victory. Basically, if at the end of all this, you unequivocally prove the right to use a Southern only ticket on Gatwick Express, then Southern only tickets will be withdrawn, and the benefit that thousands of travellers have had since 1993 of a cheaper option than the premium Gatwick Express will be lost. Southern only tickets are not regulated so do not have to be sold cheaper than Gatwick Express.But the DfT has said it's not a Train Company, and now even Southern staff admit it.
"One company, two brands" is what they now say. Which is quite correct.
However the NRCoC restricts by company, so we win!