Dispute with Southern over discounted ticket without Railcard

[Roylang]

Exiting

But it seems odd I went from New Eltham to Charing Cross then to Regents park then back through Charing Cross absolutley fine but then got to London Bridge and BOOM!

Time for you to stop complaining on that one, the gate staff are perfectly entitled to check tickets in such a manner whenever they want. You got caught, simple. Would you argue that speed traps / road cameras should not be used if they are not on every road you use? No, thought not.

Follow the advice given and send a letter back, next day delivery, stating unemotionallywhat happened , apologise lots and pay what you owe.

Then cross your fingers and hope that you are one lucky boy.

Roy

 

[RJ]

Exiting

But it seems odd I went from New Eltham to Charing Cross then to Regents park then back through Charing Cross absolutley fine but then got to London Bridge and BOOM!

You're incriminating yourself further now. The problem is, if you're not intelligent, you're just going to land yourself in even more trouble. Bragging about how much you got away with travelling without a valid ticket smacks of pure ineptitude.

Your attitude would imply that you're beyond help, so as I said before, best of luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[BestWestern]

...Also, consistancy should be used, no ticket checks when I've got a travelcard with my railcard for 3 years, but now I've had one? Need that really explained as its slightly strange. I even managed to get from London to Sheffield and back the other week without being asked for my railcard...consistency is needed!

The whole point of random revenue blockades is to catch people out. If the same places had the same level of scrutiny all the time, people would identify the gaps and fare evasion would be rife. The risk of getting 'caught out' is intended as a deterrent. London is a big place with a great many railway/Underground stations, the chances are that if you hold a ticket with an unqualified discount you will manage to travel without being caught out for the majority of the time. However, it is again the point of tactics like the random barrier checking to curb this type of fraud.

In response to those - and I appreciate there are many - who feel that the rules on failure to produce a Railcard are over the top, the issue with refunding the excess if proof is given later is that there is nothing stopping an acquaintance who does have a valid Railcard from taking somebody else's ticket into a booking office and fraudulently obtaining the refund. The requirement to carry it with you is a simple one, if you forget to do it then you have to take the hit. It's been said many times before, if you arrive at an airport having left your Passport behind, the chances are you'll be going back to get it. If you board a bus having lost your pass, you'll be buying another ticket, and so and so on...

 

[Ferret]

I too wonder if the RPI got fed up and just MG11d - I've done something similar this week. Got racked off with Mr First Class punter who thought he was above showing a ticket and who thought I was a nobhead. He found out the hard way that it would've just been easier to show the ticket that was in his pocket all along and go to sleep afterwards than cause a big fuss. Never mind - it makes no difference to me what choice he made, but it'll matter to his wallet!

 

[GadgetMan]

I too wonder if the RPI got fed up and just MG11d - I've done something similar this week. Got racked off with Mr First Class punter who thought he was above showing a ticket and who thought I was a nobhead. He found out the hard way that it would've just been easier to show the ticket that was in his pocket all along and go to sleep afterwards than cause a big fuss. Never mind - it makes no difference to me what choice he made, but it'll matter to his wallet!

This attitude from some passengers always baffles me. I came across a passenger late last week who had an A to B ticket but decided to use it as a Rover because it said Any Permitted route (he was way off route). I explained the importance of the word permitted and gave him the opportunity to purchase a ticket for the journey he was making on my train to his final destination, the chap decided he did not want to pay. I advised him that he was getting off lightly as I could report him for the full amount he would owe us for the journey's he had already admitted making. This meant he would pay around £15, as opposed to being reported for 3 Anytime Singles for the earlier journeys totaling around £130.

I spent a good 5 minutes trying to explain to him that he will pay a lot more than £15 if I report him. Too thick or too arrogant, I don't know which but he will now be dealing with our prosecution department. His details were confirmed as correct by the BTP :roll:.

 

[Ferret]

Some people think they know best. Still, I had more important things to bother about on that train - 50odd late, in the evening and I knew full well I had taxis to arrange, and connections to sort and to generally look after the 99% of good customers rather than the 1% who clearly can't handle his beer/shandy. He even had the facts explained to him, and how I'd gladly give him 10 minutes to find his ticket while I sorted the poor unfortunates who would need taxis to their destination. He chose not to listen, and then resort to insults. He found himself meeting with the platform at the next stop and being done for Public Order and a byelaw offence. And yes, for once, I'm gonna praise BTP who did exactly as I asked of them! So breathtakingly easy when BTP do as they should.....

 

[RJ]

I only ever had two occasions when customers swore at me - both times, the BTP showed up within 30 seconds and I hadn't even called them!

 

[Ferret]

I only ever had two occasions when customers swore at me - both times, the BTP showed up within 30 seconds and I hadn't even called them!

Lucky you! I have to admit I just couldn't be bothered with this guy - I was already annoyed because a colleague had been assaulted earlier in the day and I had come off my own job to work his train for him. Drunk bloke picked the wrong TM to have a row with and it cost him. Oh so easily avoided if only he'd shown a ticket......

 

[222007]

But as I'm asking, do you think any charges and such will be pressed for a mere £2.70 as per me getting my gf a YP Travelcard by mistake. If it does, then the system is seriously broken.

Yes very likely if they are anything like my TOC. its irrelavent about the amount due. That said it depends what Southern's policy is regarding providing proof of the railcard. as for the system being broken i dont think it is when you have signed the railcard agreeing to abide by the terms and conditions

 

[Ferret]

222007, I agree - they will prosecute unless the OP sorts the issue before it gets that far. Some contrition would be good at this stage....

 

[tannedfrog]

Can i just ask Nathan why you bought a paper travelcard if oyster held the YP discount?

 

[ainsworth74]

As discussed in other threads CTAs are not common at all on the rail network, and the existence of barriers does not mean it is a CTA.

My apologies I was the one that went off in the wrong direction over which Byelaw exactly it was that should be used

In fact, the thread title is a little misleading, because I see no trace of there actually being a 'dispute' at all.

It's better than the thread title the OP originally chose of something along the lines of "Southern are ar$eholes" :roll:

How can you prove somebody else is not using your railcard at the same time?

Well the fact that a YP railcard has the holders picture on it would be a factor in preventing that

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Well the fact that a YP railcard has the holders picture on it would be a factor in preventing that

Not if it's bought from a ticket office. Then you get a YP Railcard, and a YP Photocard. Both must be present to claim a YP discount.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not if it's bought from a ticket office. Then you get a YP Railcard, and a YP Photocard. Both must be present to claim a YP discount.

Apologies for being less than precise :roll: however my point still stands there is a photo of the holder to prevent fraudulent use like this.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I don't know much about this really, as I've yet to order my Young Person's railcard, but if the OP was able to prove that a railcard was on his Oyster, why would this not be accepted? I realise that the rules state that a railcard must be carried on board the train at all times, but by having it on the Oyster card there is still evidence and is effectively the same thing surely? It's also not as if the OP is trying to fare evade either, I'm pretty sure that's not his intention in the slightest.

And before anyone says I've only looked at the first page of this thread as I'm doing coursework so I do apologise if I've missed reading anything and sound incredibly ignorant :P

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't know much about this really, as I've yet to order my Young Person's railcard, but if the OP was able to prove that a railcard was on his Oyster, why would this not be accepted? I realise that the rules state that a railcard must be carried on board the train at all times, but by having it on the Oyster card there is still evidence and is effectively the same thing surely? It's also not as if the OP is trying to fare evade either, I'm pretty sure that's not his intention in the slightest.

And before anyone says I've only looked at the first page of this thread as I'm doing coursework so I do apologise if I've missed reading anything and sound incredibly ignorant :P

You need to carry your railcard on Oyster discounts too.

Otherwise, how do we know the discounted Oyster is the OP's?

 

[Urban Gateline]

I don't know much about this really, as I've yet to order my Young Person's railcard, but if the OP was able to prove that a railcard was on his Oyster, why would this not be accepted? I realise that the rules state that a railcard must be carried on board the train at all times, but by having it on the Oyster card there is still evidence and is effectively the same thing surely? It's also not as if the OP is trying to fare evade either, I'm pretty sure that's not his intention in the slightest.

And before anyone says I've only looked at the first page of this thread as I'm doing coursework so I do apologise if I've missed reading anything and sound incredibly ignorant :P

Even with it being visible on the Oyster card, not having the actual railcard in his posession is not good enough. It would be all too easy for one of his mates to be using the railcard simultaneously, yes there is a photocard, but I would guess that most ticket checks are not that thorough to check the photo and photocard number etc.

 

[ValleyLines142]

You need to carry your railcard on Oyster discounts too.

Otherwise, how do we know the discounted Oyster is the OP's?

Ah right. I don't own an Oyster card so not sure how it works.

 

[142094]

Otherwise, how do we know the discounted Oyster is the OP's?

Exactly what I would have said.

In my case I have two Oyster cards - one which has the railcard loaded on to it. I could easily give this to someone else, and use the other one.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Otherwise, how do we know the discounted Oyster is the OP's?

Well some Oyster Cards have a name and photo on the front of them, my 18+ Student Oyster Card does and so do the Zip Oyster Cards.

 

[Flamingo]

The bottom line is the OP failed the attitude test, and is now paying the price.

Just checked my "Give-A-Damn" meter (patent pending). Not a flicker!

 

[Urban Gateline]

The bottom line is the OP failed the attitude test, and is now paying the price.

Just checked my "Give-A-Damn" meter (patent pending). Not a flicker!

Haha mine has run out of batteries now unfortunately...!

True though, sometimes it's the way you come accross to staff, you get what you give pretty much!

 

[Flamingo]

Haha mine has run out of batteries now unfortunately...!

True though, sometimes it's the way you come accross to staff, you get what you give pretty much!

Had it last week, what could have been a group 3 super-off-peak turned into three Anytime singles!

 

[Urban Gateline]

Had it last week, what could have been a group 3 super-off-peak turned into three Anytime singles!

I take it this was passengers joining your service at a station with ticket purchasing facilities? If not then that's a tad harsh but nice work if you got them to pay up for the Anytime singles The lesson for them is to respect the Pink Bird or they will be shat on!

 

[Flamingo]

I take it this was passengers joining your service at a station with ticket purchasing facilities? If not then that's a tad harsh but nice work if you got them to pay up for the Anytime singles The lesson for them is to respect the Pink Bird or they will be shat on!

They got on at Pad, so no arguement there, and it was evening, and no queues. They were on board ages before departure because they were making a pain in the arrse of themselves before departure to the buffet host, and when I eventually got around to checking tickets in their carriage they claimed vociferously, repeatedly and aggressively they had got on at the last station, two stops after they had actually done so.

Ching ching

(To be fair, I can't remember the last time I did that to someone, but they were seriously obnoxious.)

 

[Urban Gateline]

They got on at Pad, so no arguement there, and it was evening, and no queues. They were on board ages before departure because they were making a pain in the arrse of themselves before departure to the buffet host, and when I eventually got around to checking tickets in their carriage they claimed vociferously, repeatedly and aggressively they had got on at the last station, two stops after they had actually done so.

Ching ching

(To be fair, I can't remember the last time I did that to someone, but they were seriously obnoxious.)

Barriers not in operation at PAD then? It's good that you noticed where they got on, I suppose on a busy train it would have been easy for them to get away with it had they not been so disruptive!

This just relates back to the OP's post then, we need Barriers to be in operation and to be effectively set up, with regular railcard blocks to make people conform to actually having a railcard when carrying a discounted ticket!

 

[swt_passenger]

TVMs probably need a modification to be able to check that a railcard is present (if selected).

A warning message splash screen like SWT have just added, may make a small dent in the numbers 'accidentally forgetting' their railcards, but I suspect absent railcards will eventually be seen as a significant fraud problem by the TOCs, and something will have to change...

 

[Flamingo]

Barriers not in operation at PAD then? It's good that you noticed where they got on, I suppose on a busy train it would have been easy for them to get away with it had they not been so disruptive!

This just relates back to the OP's post then, we need Barriers to be in operation and to be effectively set up, with regular railcard blocks to make people conform to actually having a railcard when carrying a discounted ticket!

It was more an educated guess, and the CH was able to confirm it. Not all platforms at Pad are barriered, and after a certain time none of them are.

As I said, if they had not failed the attitude test and tried to cheat, I'd have sold them the cheapest ticket.

 

[ert47]

You need to carry your railcard on Oyster discounts too.

Otherwise, how do we know the discounted Oyster is the OP's?

In order to apply a Railcard to an Oyster card, aren't you first suppose to register the Oystercard with your details? If the passenger has a photographic ID that matches the details on the card, then surely...

Im not sure what the set up is at the moment, but it seems you cant actually do much in terms of checking an Oyster card unless you're at an Underground station.

 

[Squaddie]

We need Barriers to be in operation and to be effectively set up, with regular railcard blocks to make people conform to actually having a railcard when carrying a discounted ticket!

Not necessarily. What we need is effective on-board ticket checks and clear, unambiguous rules regarding penalties so that passengers know their ticket will be inspected and the consequences of having an invalid ticket, and ticket inspectors cannot punish a passenger for having a "bad attitude".

As I said, if they had not failed the attitude test and tried to cheat, I'd have sold them the cheapest ticket.

And that demonstrates perfectly why the UK's railways are in such a state.