Penalty Fare - sitting in First Class on a Standard Ticket

[AlterEgo]

Hi there,
I won't be taking them to court, I paid the fine at the time so I think from Southern's point of view it's finished. Evidenced from our discussion here though, the T & C's are hardly simple to explain (even if the guard HAD let me read them, I couldn't be sure of what I'd signed!)
I think I'd just like to write a letter about the attitude and the treatment of the member of staff, as well as perhaps his lack of training. (Paying the full fare immediately has been stressful!) Where do you recommend I send it?
Thanks, Apple

Their standard complaints address is:

Southern Railway
Customer Services Team
PO Box 3021
Bristol
BS2 2BS

Or, if you prefer to write to the top:

Chris Burchell
Go Ahead House
26-28 Addiscombe Road
Croydon
CR9 5GA

 

[scarby]

In your case I believe you travelled on a DOO service. i.e. Driver only - no guard. Most DOO services do not have regular ticket issuing/checking staff on board but operate in the main a zero tolerance blitz technique where groups of RPIs (Revenue Protection Inspectors) target specific trains at random - any infractions to the rules are dealt with harshly usually with Penalty Fares for mistakes or genuine errors or reporting for prosecution for deliberate fare evasions.

1. Being random, are these RPIs to be found on services at 23.30 on Friday nights, when they might be more likely to find boozed-up aggressive passengers deliberately and provocatively sitting in 1st class for a "laugh"?

2. Not so long ago I was on a TPE service with a couple of chavs sitting in 1st class. The guard did a great job, firmly telling them to move - but why should they get away with being moved and the OP here have to shell out £130?

 

[jkdd77]

Hi there,
I won't be taking them to court, I paid the fine at the time so I think from Southern's point of view it's finished. Evidenced from our discussion here though, the T & C's are hardly simple to explain (even if the guard HAD let me read them, I couldn't be sure of what I'd signed!)
I think I'd just like to write a letter about the attitude and the treatment of the member of staff, as well as perhaps his lack of training. (Paying the full fare immediately has been stressful!) Where do you recommend I send it?
Thanks, Apple

It's up to you, but, as far as I can see, there's no reason why you can't make a formal appeal to the designated appeal body and pursue an informal complaint to Southern Customer Services at the same time.

If you do appeal (and an appeal costs nothing other than the cost of a stamp), make sure you send it to arrive within 21 days, and I suggest including some of the points suggested on this thread.

 

[ainsworth74]

2. Not so long ago I was on a TPE service with a couple of chavs sitting in 1st class. The guard did a great job, firmly telling them to move - but why should they get away with being moved and the OP here have to shell out £130?

Because TPE don't operate a Penalty Fare system the appropriate step is either to ask them to move or upgrade (though if they have travelled some distance in first class when checked then I would argue they would have to pay the upgrade). If TPE did operate PFs then it would be up to the RPI (it could not be a guard) to either let them move, upgrade or PF them.

 

[Ferret]

Ah, I didn't spot that the OP paid at the time, my apologies. I can't imagine any appeal will be successful but I don't suppose there is anything to lose by trying!

 

[island]

You're reading a different condition 4 to me then - I see "You may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if..."

'May' is a very different word to 'will'.

If the OP hasn't been scared off, I suggest a complaint along these lines, concluding to a small claims court claim for recovery of her losses.

One of the reasons you "may" be given a penalty fare could be that there were not full ticketing facilities at the station where you boarded. Or the RPI may use discretion, perhaps in the case of someone foreign or with a disability. It does not mean that you are guaranteed to be let off, or even that you should be.

 

[northwichcat]

2. Not so long ago I was on a TPE service with a couple of chavs sitting in 1st class. The guard did a great job, firmly telling them to move - but why should they get away with being moved and the OP here have to shell out £130?

Because TPE don't operate a Penalty Fare system

Not only that but at weekends and on bank holidays TPE say you can pay for an upgrade on board, so even if they did have penalty fares on certain days they couldn't penalty fare you for not upgrading before you board.

 

[jon0844]

2. Not so long ago I was on a TPE service with a couple of chavs sitting in 1st class. The guard did a great job, firmly telling them to move - but why should they get away with being moved and the OP here have to shell out £130?

I believe first class on some routes should be marked with times to signify operation;

0430-2030 First Class ticket holders only
2031-0430 Chav class (tickets optional, but please don't smoke or etch the glass) - closed to standard and first class ticket holders

RPIs are instructed not to put themselves or passengers at risk, so even those who treat ordinary passengers harshly will usually let some groups off, perhaps trying to be nice and ask them nicely to leave and 'let them off this time' when really they don't dare issue a penalty fare or take down details.

If you're in a group and it's one RPI on his own, it's highly likely that being as threatening as possible will get you off. Sure, some may call BTP, but it's a calculated risk, and I'm sure they all know how likely it is that BTP will actually come out.

I've seen this time and time again, although in the last 12 months or so when using late night services, I've barely ever seen revenue staff on late night services. That said, I did see FCC had Hatfield open at gone midnight on a Saturday night to do checks. No good for catching people in first class though.

 

[Butts]

I believe first class on some routes should be marked with times to signify operation;

0430-2030 First Class ticket holders only
2031-0430 Chav class (tickets optional, but please don't smoke or etch the glass) - closed to standard and first class ticket holders

RPIs are instructed not to put themselves or passengers at risk, so even those who treat ordinary passengers harshly will usually let some groups off, perhaps trying to be nice and ask them nicely to leave and 'let them off this time' when really they don't dare issue a penalty fare or take down details.

If you're in a group and it's one RPI on his own, it's highly likely that being as threatening as possible will get you off. Sure, some may call BTP, but it's a calculated risk, and I'm sure they all know how likely it is that BTP will actually come out.

I've seen this time and time again, although in the last 12 months or so when using late night services, I've barely ever seen revenue staff on late night services. That said, I did see FCC had Hatfield open at gone midnight on a Saturday night to do checks. No good for catching people in first class though.

I thoroughly agree with your comments - a quick summation would be that as always the easy targets (I nearly said law abiding ) are reeled in and the real "head the balls" get off scot free

Do people really smoke on Trains - I am pleased to report to ralph and the other "ash devotees" that although I "abuse" the platforms occasionally - legally in Scotland - I wouldn't light up inside. Does that make me a saint ?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Do people really smoke on Trains - I am pleased to report to ralph and the other "ash devotees" that although I "abuse" the platforms occasionally - legally in Scotland - I wouldn't light up inside. Does that make me a saint ?

It makes you one of the better smokers!

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

It's definitely your own fault, but I think they were harsh in not giving you a chance to clear. You didn't abuse any of their facilities did you?
But please learn and you'll be fine in the future. If you feel like it go for an appeal but I won't guarantee it's fair.
But £69 fine, EACH? Seriously? That's just uncalled for, but per what I said above...

 

[142094]

You didn't abuse any of their facilities did you?

Obviously they did - I'd call sitting in 1st with a standard ticket an 'abuse of the facilities'.

 

[AlterEgo]

But £69 fine, EACH? Seriously? That's just uncalled for, but per what I said above...

It's not a fine...it's a Penalty Fare.

 

[lewisf]

I notice that it says that you cannot occupy any 1st class area of a train on a standard class ticket, not even stand. So how to I move from one Southern 377 to another when they are coupled to alight at a station with short platforms?

 

[Urban Gateline]

I notice that it says that you cannot occupy any 1st class area of a train on a standard class ticket, not even stand. So how to I move from one Southern 377 to another when they are coupled to alight at a station with short platforms?

Occupy means to stay there, if you are just walking through a first class compartment you won't get penalised for that!

 

[Butts]

Occupy means to stay there, if you are just walking through a first class compartment you won't get penalised for that!

What if you are occupying a lavatory in the 1st Class Section

 

[Darandio]

Then in your case, keep a satisfactory distance!

 

[jon0844]

Do people really smoke on Trains

Not that much, but yes - some people do. Some aren't smoking regular cigarettes either.

I didn't mean to imply that every chav upgrading to first class on a weekend was smoking, as that's not true. However, those that do appear to get away with it as no other passengers intervene (myself included).

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Because TPE don't operate a Penalty Fare system the appropriate step is either to ask them to move or upgrade (though if they have travelled some distance in first class when checked then I would argue they would have to pay the upgrade). If TPE did operate PFs then it would be up to the RPI (it could not be a guard) to either let them move, upgrade or PF them.

Not only that but at weekends and on bank holidays TPE say you can pay for an upgrade on board, so even if they did have penalty fares on certain days they couldn't penalty fare you for not upgrading before you board.

I work on the basis of stations stops.

If the passenger is going 1 stop and they are in 1st Class when I get there generally they will need to pay the first class upgrade. Generally they will not be given the chance to move.

If a passenger is going more than one stop then I weigh up the proportion of their journey completed in first class so far to decide whether to allow them the chance to move, or insist on them paying the excess fare.

This is particularly the case when I make announcements such as "The First Class compartment is located at X and is clearly identified by X, Y and Z. The First Class compartment is for First Class ticket holders only. If you have a standard class ticket in the first class are you will need to pay an additional charge. If you do not wish to pay this additional charge, please move into standard class now. There is plenty of standard class space at the back / middle / front of the train". Now I don't make that announcement every time, but it comes out every so often when I think people are taking the piddle and it clearly gives them a) time to move, b) no excuse to say they didn't realise, c) no excuse to say they didn't realise there was space elsewhere.

Do people really smoke on Trains - I am pleased to report to ralph and the other "ash devotees" that although I "abuse" the platforms occasionally - legally in Scotland - I wouldn't light up inside. Does that make me a saint ?

Yes, a lot of people smoke on trains, mostly in the toilets, although some drunk people have been known to light up in the passenger saloons.

Like fare evasion, people seem to think that breaking the smoking ban on trains is perfectly acceptable, despite the fact they probably wouldn't smoke in a pub / nightclub / shop / bus.

 

[Butts]

What do you do in the "11.30pm" scenario mentioned earlier in the thread ?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

What do you do in the "11.30pm" scenario mentioned earlier in the thread ?

Generally head to first class straight away and chuck them out before they get a chance to get comfy.

 

[Butts]

Generally head to first class straight away and chuck them out before they get a chance to get comfy.

Sounds like your one of the few who don't "bottle it" - well done.

 

[amcluesent]

Can a laydee offer an RPI a 'happy ending' in the FC lavvy to avoid getting PFed?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Can a laydee offer an RPI a 'happy ending' in the lavvy to avoid getting PFed?

It would be illegal under the Bribery Act.

 

[AlterEgo]

It would be illegal under the Bribery Act.

Don't you need to prove the RPI "gained an advantage" for himself?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Don't you need to prove the RPI "gained an advantage" for himself?

That has never been defined in Court so it's up to the jury

 

[Butts]

Can a laydee offer an RPI a 'happy ending' in the lavvy to avoid getting PFed?

Ha Ha very witty

Why is it only me that gets a "adds nothing to the topic" for a post like this

 

[amcluesent]

Why is it only me that gets a "adds nothing to the topic" for a post like this

It's a serious question about the integrity of RPIs!

 

[Butts]

It's a serious question about the integrity of RPIs!

Of course, how silly of me, my sincere apologies for doubting your integrity

 

[Anon Mouse]

It's a serious question about the integrity of RPIs!

pesky CCTV cameras!