• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

First win Intercity West Coast franchise

Status
Not open for further replies.

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
How is that any different? Sheesh these anti-Virginites really are grasping at straws and making up lies.

Your point being what exactly?

I'm just pointing out that despite popular belief Virgin did NOT buy all these brand new trains but rather leased them, the same as London Midland/First Capital Connect/Southern/SouthEastern etc...have all had extra seating made available to the public by either new trains or cascaded trains which are ALL leased!

The only TOC which actually brought trains was First Great Western and a number of their HSTs.

Some people seem to think that because Virgin own these trains that on the 9th December, they will no longer be available with much shorter trains being used.

I'm just trying to introduce some common sense to the gullible public who love Virgin....
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

HH

Established Member
Joined
31 Jul 2009
Messages
4,505
Location
Essex
Let's do some numbers. First are going for an average of 10.4% growth.

Simplistically, this means in 7 years they need to DOUBLE the passenger numbers on the West coast main line or hike fares.
Actually based on a steady 10.4% it would be a doubling of Passenger REVENUE. Growth is 5.8%. But it's not steady; we have the (almost traditional for First bids) hockey stick shape. The biggest growth is in the last 5 years of the franchise (including the possible extension). I'm guessing that the start is all about ramping up the growth, and then they start to increase the yield (IOW up prices). So make hay with the cheaper fares while that sun shines...

I make that assumption, because even with the extra capacity there is no way they can carry over double the passengers by 2027. They will have to price off demand on the busiest services. Good luck in doing that on a Sunday afternoon though.

This is considering:
- Virgin did that comparing it to BR days but only after very substantial investment in the WCML, including much higher train frequencies and much shorter journey times.
- We are in a recession, and depending on the Euro crisis and other factors, it could get a lot worse
- The airline industry is lobbying for a reduction in APD, which if they succeed may affect traffic on the northern half of the line
- Some of the new flows they are taking on were basket cases in BR days: Shrewsbury and Blackpool.
- Peak time traffic is already fairly close to capacity, much new growth will need to be off peak.
- First group are heavily in debt, their share price has fallen 26% percent in the last few days.
- Virgin have a much stronger brand than First.
I'd agree with almost all of this. The share price has not fallen 26%, and in any case the fall followed a much larger rise; First shares are trading a lot higher than before the rumours of their win started.

Shrewsbury & Blackpool may have been a basket case in the says of BR, but that was then; now I reckon that most, if not all, the bidders would have had plans for them. Certain other locations are more dubious - MK is clearly an ORCATS raid (but opens them up to some big split ticketing issues unless other changes are made, dependent on DfT approval - possibly already made though), Nuneaton is probably more about PR (they have a very vociferous lobby) than revenue (there are better locations to stop in the area), and there's not much in Bangor apart from a few impoverished students.

As I pointed out earlier, ICWC actually helps their debt line, as it generally gets cash up front of having to pay bills.

Note that if the general economy suffers then they would probably be in Revenue Support by the time their line really takes off. The bigger risk comes from the government going back to a policy of regional redistribution of wealth, i.e. taking money from London, which drives most of the WCML revenue, to give to Wales, Scotland, North East, etc.

The only way this bid makes sense is if they have looked at all the possibilities for those latter years (could be in support, might have had change, maybe the economy booms again) and decided that the risk is worth it. As reported in City AM, they have said to the market that their risk is capped at £265m. But that £265m could be after already having taken £500m+ out in profits.
 

WestCoast

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,582
Location
Glasgow
Is it that staff & customers like the Virgin brand or is it that they like & trust Sir Richard Branson?

Firstly, I do think there are legitimate concerns on both sides of the fence and I can see both sides of the argument.

However, the wider public are captured by the PR put out by Virgin and don't necessarily have a thorough understanding of the role of Governments and taxpayers in the railways. Hence why we are seeing uninformed comments on Facebook and Twitter, perhaps leading to some people signing the petition.

That's not to say there aren't staff and customers who like Virgin and would rather they kept the franchise. I am sure not everyone venting their spleens is in that category though!

Imagine the current franchise being Stagecoach branded (perfectly feasible if their stake was 51%), would there be so much outcry? I very much doubt it.
 

HH

Established Member
Joined
31 Jul 2009
Messages
4,505
Location
Essex
Just a quick diversion from the Virgin behaviour and First bid line parts of the thread. If the new 6 cars end up being Pendos, what name should they have? I vote for Piccolinos.
 
Joined
5 Aug 2011
Messages
779
Just a quick diversion from the Virgin behaviour and First bid line parts of the thread. If the new 6 cars end up being Pendos, what name should they have? I vote for Piccolinos.

I think someone sugested Bambolinos in another thread
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,173
Location
Somewhere, not in London
I think someone sugested Bambolinos in another thread

What exactly is wrong with baby pendo, pendo, extendo and pretendo?

Since intelligent debate has well and truely left this thread...

As a side, what stations on the WCML can take a 14 car unit?

Certain platforms at Crewe can, and I beleive Nuneaton and Coventry can too, care to fill in the gaps?

(Yes, I do have a copy of the sectional appendix, no I can't be bothered reading it)
 
Joined
9 Jul 2011
Messages
777
Little Pendolino = Poco Pendolino (po as in off, or o as in orange)
Short Pendolino = Breve Pendolino (bre as in bread + ve as in vey)
 

Wolfie

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2010
Messages
6,159
And so they should, Virgin and Branson are just acting like spoilt brats - it would serve them right if the DfT even refuse to consider them for the Inter City East Coast franchise IF Virgin decide to put a bid forward which no doubt they will....

Under the current legislation DfT CANNOT do that! Even if they could, any such action would give Virgin very definite grounds for legal action. The likelihood, working for Govt and having been on the receiving end of applications for judicial review, is that Virgin would win any such action.

I used to think Virgin was a decent TOC but recently they've proven to be very disappointing in their attitude to losing the West Coast to a better bid.

A BETTER bid no - see DfT's own evaluation even with the quirks which have previously been highlighted - a HIGHER bid yes! That worked well (twice) on the ECML didn't it....

my response in bold - seemed the easiest way....
 

E16 Cyclist

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2011
Messages
187
Location
London
my response in bold - seemed the easiest way....

If the Virgin bid was so good they surely would have released it by now, that they haven't makes me think they were themselves planning to make cutbacks to the service and are now resorting to scaremongering
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
That's because Arriva can't be bothered to put their name on the outside of their trains (unlike with ATW).
You have to be suspicious of TOCs who don't want their parent brand associated with the trains they run.
NX used to be like that (still is with c2c).
At least First are very happy to do it.

Hmm. TOCs get criticised for being vain and plastering their name and colours everywhere, yet TOCs get criticised for not doing so? Are you criticising Sea Containers for coming up with the GNER brand (rather than using the name of the parent company)? Should Chiltern have had the name of their parent company too?

Maybe Arriva thought that Cross Country was a strong enough brand name (like Thameslink and ScotRail) that it stood up on its own and worked without needing corporate branding?

(whereas some TOCs run services that don't have any particular historical name - i.e. there's never been a previous "Wales And Borders" franchise)

Virgin have put in a bid they see as sensible, they have done so before with the ECML. It is quite clear that the DfT are going for the maximum return as they did with the National Express and GNER

Except that National Express weren't the highest bidder for the ECML franchise (Arriva were).

And GNER's problems had as much to do with their parent company and the decision to award Open Access paths as it did with their bid (realistically any carefully calculated bid is going to have a big hole blown in it when a chunk of the London - York/ Doncaster ORCATS pot suddenly gets hived off to other TOCs).

Since intelligent debate has well and truely left this thread...

How are those 3+2 seats looking? :lol:
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,173
Location
Somewhere, not in London
How are those 3+2 seats looking? :lol:

You not seen them First Group managers, they all have 17" behinds so 3+2 isn't a problem ;)

To be honest, was realistic debate ever here?

And I did attempt to get something back to good sense with with 22x electrodieselification discussion...
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,692
Its hard to have a realistic deabte about this with some of the stuff coming out. So no Nym it probably wasn't ever here!

On the 22x electrodieselification bit, even if they can only extend the 4 cars to 5 cars, that could make a huge difference surely? the 4 cars are woefully inadequate. at least 5 is a 33%(probably closer to 40% if you include lost space at end of quiet coach for crumple zone) increase in standard class seats.
 
Last edited:

LE Greys

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
5,389
Location
Hitchin
I answered this in another thread. Price is compared, if close then quality, and this is repeated up to 3 times until a clear winner emerges. The bar is not 10% as some erroneously say, but a fraction of the NPV of the income of the highest bid. This varies from franchise to franchise, but it was a relatively small % on ICWC. We haven't seen the full revenue figures, but it will be a fair bit less than 10%; more like 5 or 6% I'd estimate.

That means it didn't get past the first stage and therefore comparative quality never came into it. First's bid was considered deliverable, which was enough. Yes VT's bid scored higher, but even if First hadn't won it on the first round, VT's bid would have to have been 10% higher for them to have won it on the first quality round. Nothing suggests that they are that much ahead (I'm sure they would have said if it was).

What is quality? Well each plan is scored by experts using a RADAR format (part of EFQM). Essentially this means they look to see what boxes your plans tick, and then how believable they are. Generally you are most believable if your plans are repeating something you've already successfully done. Gut feeling shouldn't enter into it, but when people are involved the marking may not be 100% accurate...

Bidders normally get more detailed feedback later. By then it's too late to challenge even if they feel the reasons for a low score are erroneous.

So it essentially comes down to the question "Should money really be considered before service quality?". I'm not going to answer that one, but that's a debate that should happen (and I hope does happen) in the House of Commons. After all, that's what it's there for.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Its hard to haev a realistic deabte about this with some of the stuff coming out. So no Nym it probably wasn't ever here!

On the 22x electrodieselification bit, even if they can only extend the 4 cars to 5 cars, that could make a huge difference surely? the 4 cars are woefully inadequate. at least 5 is a 33%(probably closer to 40% if you include lost space at end of quiet coach for crumple zone) increase in standard class seats.

Can't argue with that. It is also quite convenient, since a 220 (or maybe 620) could run VICE 221 without messing up the seat reservations too much.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
Was thinking more a 14 car Class 221 as the final feasibility check for the 221EDMU Programme...

Why 14 car though? The longest are 5 cars so with an extra pantograph vehicle the longest would be 6 cars.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,692
Why 14 car though? The longest are 5 cars so with an extra pantograph vehicle the longest would be 6 cars.

Earlier on it was discussed that a 5 car would need two transformer cars to stop any loss of performance under the wires. So that would make it 7 cars.
 
Last edited:

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,173
Location
Somewhere, not in London
Earlier on it was discussed that a 5 car would need two transformer cars to stop any loss of performance off the wires. So that would make it 7 cars.

Actually any loss of performance ON the wires...

You can't fit a big enough transformer inside one carriage under the floor to make 6 carriages at the power rating of the 221 move fast enough.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why 14 car though? The longest are 5 cars so with an extra pantograph vehicle the longest would be 6 cars.

You'd need two transformer carriages, unless you want to use diesel and electric while on wires...
 
Last edited:

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,692
Actually any loss of performance ON the wires...

You can't fit a big enough transformer inside one carriage under the floor to make 6 carriages at the power rating of the 221 move fast enough.
.

Thank you for pointing out my mistake, changed to suit :D
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,058
Location
UK
There have been some PR people congratulating Virgin and Mr Branson for his effective campaign to get First rejected today. Seems it has been a very cleverly orchestrated campaign but it is surely still going to get nowhere?

I bet I can predict what will happen next, given the ignorance of most users. We will see outrage as Virgin is forced to give up its fleet and hand the trains over to First. That will then 'explain' why the trains aren't changing come December but how it's an outrage that they can be swiped away and given to an evil profiteering bus operator.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 

Badger

Member
Joined
17 Oct 2011
Messages
617
Location
Wolverhampton
I know I am probably a gullible fool but I signed mainly so that Virgin don't start domestic flights between London and Manchester like proposed, I really don't want that to happen. I know that's a terrible reason to support one franchise over another but I'd rather have a bad* train operator than a good airplane operator on this route.

*subjective, I don't think so
 

PR1Berske

Established Member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
3,025
There's not been such an outpouring of grief over a franchise loss since TVS gave way to Meridian....



(That's one for the older readers amongst you)
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,058
Location
UK
I was sad when Thames Television went (also showing my age). No Internet then to share outrage and disappointment.
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
I was sad when Thames Television went (also showing my age). No Internet then to share outrage and disappointment.
In this case a consortium involving Richard Branson (CPV-TV) was actually the highest bidder but was disqualified on quality grounds with Carlton winning the franchise as the highest qualified bidder. As with the East Coast rail franchise last time, it isn't always a case of highest bidder wins.
 

Wath Yard

Member
Joined
31 Dec 2011
Messages
864
A couple of shots of the PIS at Warrington at 13:28 today.

Perhaps Virgin should be putting more effort into providing correct, up-to-date information for their passengers, and slightly less trying to get them to sign a pointless and sad petition.
 

Attachments

  • DSC_0403_copy.jpg
    DSC_0403_copy.jpg
    153.5 KB · Views: 123
  • DSC_0404_copy.jpg
    DSC_0404_copy.jpg
    139.1 KB · Views: 112

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
First has asked for tenders for a £7m advertising contract to design and advertise the brand for West Coast, its to be franchise specific and not mention its part of First Group.
Knee jerk reaction to the anti-First public reaction? They must have done work designing a brand to use before now surely?
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,065
Location
Macclesfield
A couple of shots of the PIS at Warrington at 13:28 today.

Perhaps Virgin should be putting more effort into providing correct, up-to-date information for their passengers, and slightly less trying to get them to sign a pointless and sad petition.
They had a very similar message scrolling across the internal screens on my Pendolino this morning, too, although admittedly without the erroneous display of train times!
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,692
A couple of shots of the PIS at Warrington at 13:28 today.

Perhaps Virgin should be putting more effort into providing correct, up-to-date information for their passengers, and slightly less trying to get them to sign a pointless and sad petition.

Embarrasing to Virgin.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top