First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[150's are evil]

How do first propose to run longer trains on the Euston-Holyhead route? I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this question has already been asked...

 

[northwichcat]

J
No hypocrites at all.
1- We dont really know what the interior will be fully like on IEPs. Most could well be specified by TOCs.

We do know how many seats the IEP sets are expected to have - see the Foster review in to IEP (I've not got time to find it now.) I'm sure looking at those figures alongside a Pendolino seating diagram will give an idea of whether to expect more or less airline seats.

 

[Mr Spock]

With apologies if it is a sweeping statement it appears most of the people who are of the "get over it, First won" opinion are either First lovers or don't travel regularly on the WCML. I am prepared to be open minded to First, but I think the DfT are losing an innovative company in Virgin. I would also argue that taking up the poisoned chalice of the WCML in 97, 98, whenever it was, is a little different to running...well...anything else. If I'm wrong I'm sure the pedant brigade will let me know!

I travel 3/4 times a week with Virgin (local station is Rugby) and have mostly been happy with them.

I have frequently travelled on FGW and have not had many problems with them either.

It seems to me that First have made the best bid and have therefore been selected to run the WCML in the future and that should be the end of it.

 

[junglejames]

We do know how many seats the IEP sets are expected to have - see the Foster review in to IEP (I've not got time to find it now.) I'm sure looking at those figures alongside a Pendolino seating diagram will give an idea of whether to expect more or less airline seats.

Ah ok. Thought that sort of thing was down to TOC. Still, the point about who actually ordered the trains stands.

 

[Hazlehead]

I travel 3/4 times a week with Virgin (local station is Rugby) and have mostly been happy with them.

I have frequently travelled on FGW and have not had many problems with them either.

It seems to me that First have made the best bid and have therefore been selected to run the WCML in the future and that should be the end of it.

Hear hear! Lets look to the future and the many good things that are in Firsts bid

 

[northwichcat]

How do first propose to run longer trains on the Euston-Holyhead route? I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this question has already been asked...

I didn't notice longer trains on the Holyhead route, just more Bangor services. Anyway new 6 car EMU will displace Voyagers off Birmingham-Scotland services, which allows more stock for the North Wales-London route and a new daily Shrewsbury-London service.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Once again apologies if already mentioned, however..

I'm just wondering if anything has officially been said about catering in FC?

I hope First will retain the current level of catering, as I wouldn't be as inclined to use them if they reduce/scrap the food and drink.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Once again apologies if already mentioned, however..

I'm just wondering if anything has officially been said about catering in FC?

I hope First will retain the current level of catering, as I wouldn't be as inclined to use them if they reduce/scrap the food and drink.

It will stay as current despite what virgin would have you believe

There facebook page is unbelieveable.
Someone saying should we write to the queen....

 

[jw]

Have Virgin released any further details on what their plans were?

 

[D365]

Although the 6-car trains will most likely end up as "Baby Pendos", could the current Voyagers be lengthened and converted to diesel/electric traction?

 

[Aictos]

Have you noticed the ratio of negative virgin comments have increased over the last few days though? people are finally seeing through the BS.

And so they should, Virgin and Branson are just acting like spoilt brats - it would serve them right if the DfT even refuse to consider them for the Inter City East Coast franchise IF Virgin decide to put a bid forward which no doubt they will....

What the Secretary of Transport needs to do is simply issue a statement highlighting exactly who bankrolled the West Coast Mainline Upgrade ie not Virgin and that Virgin only lease the trains they use that they don't and haven't actually brought any!

I used to think Virgin was a decent TOC but recently they've proven to be very disappointing in their attitude to losing the West Coast to a better bid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Although the 6-car trains will most likely end up as "Baby Pendos", could the current Voyagers be lengthened and converted to diesel/electric traction?

I believe this has already been discussed and the short answer is no, I'm sure the guys in the know will be able to explain why shortly...

 

[voyagerdude220]

It will stay as current despite what virgin would have you believe

If that's the case, i'm very happy. I love the cooked breakfast, even the Super Voyager one isn't that bad (although i'd always choose the proper freshly cooked Full English if given the choice.)

IMO the evening meals could do with some improvement, although admittedly I don't use the evening meal services much these days and stick to the cheaper daytime ones when possible, because i wasn't impressed with the portion size recently.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If that's the case, i'm very happy. I love the cooked breakfast, even the Super Voyager one isn't that bad (although i'd always choose the proper freshly cooked Full English if given the choice.)

IMO the evening meals could do with some improvement, although admittedly I don't use the evening meal services much these days and stick to the cheaper daytime ones when possible, because i wasn't impressed with the portion size recently.

They say some changes will be made but there will be no reductions.... If FGW are anything to go by it will be good though.

 

[sprinterguy]

Keeping with the sporadic updates from Virgin Train's Facebook page, I did rather like this re-write of "Night Mail" that was recently posted:

This is the Voyager crossing the Border
Standing room only, unless you pre order
Seating for the rich, corridors for the poor
The shop has sold out, the buffet no more
Revving up Beattock, claiming to be green

The wires above her, no pan to be seen
Birds turn their heads, as she approaches
Stare from the bushes, at her paltry 5 coaches

Cars in the fast lane can’t keep pace
Have comfortable seats and a lot more grace
Thro’ heather and weather but not fallen leaves
With approval ratings that no-one believes
Shoveling carbon over her shoulder
Nox, particulates, benzene, sulphur
Her weight fatigues the railway line
She’s ten minutes late but that’s on time

In the farm she passes no one wakes
All long gone to euro milk lakes
Dawn freshens but the toilet’s full
Snarling toward the urban sprawl
Scotland, independent nation
Soon an end to this vibration
Past rough estates and fast food chains
Dodging the stones from those with no brains

Call centres, offices, low cost homes
Tattooed teenagers with tweeting phones
Once steel and coal and engineering
Graffiti, flats and multi screening
Trainspotting here is not what it seems
But fuels the crime to pay for dreams
In the dark glens beside pale green sea lochs
Men read their e-mails

By “Trailer Second”, with apologies to W H Auden (“Night Mail”)

 

[Nym]

Although the 6-car trains will most likely end up as "Baby Pendos", could the current Voyagers be lengthened and converted to diesel/electric traction?

Technically speaking, they couldn't be extended by one carriage as a single transformer wouldn't be enough, you'd need to have two transformer carriages, you'd then start limiting off wires performance and result in not being able to have two trains coupled together to serve terminal destinations other than Manchester, Euston, etc, However, if the first stop where Crewe and a service split there, then it's a possibility.

The centre three carriages would also require an HV busbar adding across the roof, and I'm not sure if that is possible.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but the millions of pounds in investment came from the government and not virgin trains, it was taxpayers that effectivley paid for the west coast upgrade and the pendelinos are leased so virgin pay no more than any other toc and even the maintenance facilities were paid for by alstom and not virgin. Once again its bransons style over substance

Ben, keep driving the trains, stop saying things about a service I suspect you don't use.

Truth hurt much?

 

[ukrob]

Technically speaking, they couldn't be extended by one carriage as a single transformer wouldn't be enough, you'd need to have two transformer carriages, you'd then start limiting off wires performance and result in not being able to have two trains coupled together to serve terminal destinations other than Manchester, Euston, etc, However, if the first stop where Crewe and a service split there, then it's a possibility.

The centre three carriages would also require an HV busbar adding across the roof, and I'm not sure if that is possible.

Why do Bombardier say you can then?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Lets hope we can get together to save Virgin Trains and the iconic pendolino on our rail network!

I sure someone once said 'the common man's a fool'...

 

[WatcherZero]

And so they should, Virgin and Branson are just acting like spoilt brats - it would serve them right if the DfT even refuse to consider them for the Inter City East Coast franchise IF Virgin decide to put a bid forward which no doubt they will....

What the Secretary of Transport needs to do is simply issue a statement highlighting exactly who bankrolled the West Coast Mainline Upgrade ie not Virgin and that Virgin only lease the trains they use that they don't and haven't actually brought any!

I used to think Virgin was a decent TOC but recently they've proven to be very disappointing in their attitude to losing the West Coast to a better bid.

We're also buying 11 new trains so that by 2016 there will be 40,000 more seats per day available on our trains compared with 2011.

http://www.firstgroup.com/corporate/our_company/west_coast_FAQ.php

How is that any different? Sheesh these anti-Virginites really are grasping at straws and making up lies.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

There is no doubt that Virgin have a much nicer paint job!
The way the TOCs are chosen needs an overhaul!
Passengers should be able to vote for their new TOC!!

 

[WatcherZero]

Guardian did a poll of the public on 15 August

Which train company would you prefer to travel with?
90% Virgin Trains
10% FirstGroup

 

[tbtc]

If it was pointless, then why are so many people signing it? It is sometimes worth chasing a lost cause

This is Britain, where we love the idea of supporting the underdog, even when the "little guy" isn't exactly little. This is something that Branson has played on throughout his career - playing the role of the "little guy" when dealing with established brands like British Airways. Stagecoach also started out this way.

Yes, it can be cute to see people supporting David against Goliath, but multi millionaire tax-dodger Branson is no "David".

Agreed. I would only sign that petition if Virgin said "If we win the franchise, here's what we'll do," and I was impressed by what they said. But they haven't done that. Instead, they've just drawn up a list of qualitative, debatable and sometimes frankly untrue comments about their operation.

Basically, what will Virgin do better than First? Apparently, nothing, as they haven't said anything definitive. (Unless there is some rule preventing them from disclosing their plans)

How do first propose to run longer trains on the Euston-Holyhead route? I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this question has already been asked...

Have Virgin released any further details on what their plans were?

Other than stop more services at Motherwell (you know, that Lanarkshire station that lost a lot of its WCML services when Virgin were desperate to shave a few minutes off the headline Glasgow journey times a few years ago) and some Stirling service (presumably running via Cumbernauld), then no they've not said a great deal.

And both the Motherwell and Stirling improvements could have been done much sooner, but presumably Virgin would rather wait for the new franchise (they've settled in their laurels for a few years now).

First are telling their shareholders their only going to invest £29m over the length of the franchise mostly in stations! The rest comes from Network Rail and the Dft paying track access and leasing charges!

Before the bid was announced people were complaining about the amount of money that First would have to spend rebranding stations. Now they are complaining about the fact that insufficient money is being spent on such things...

It seems to me that First have made the best bid and have therefore been selected to run the WCML in the future and that should be the end of it.

Yes, yes, yes!

This is getting so embarrassing that I'm expecting a local paper from Derby to tell Virgin that they are behaving like brats - at least Bombardier retained a bit of dignity and didn't embarrass themselves (they just let local MPs/ press/ Unions etc do the wailing/ gnashing)

First are good at running long distance trains, First put in a better bid for the WCML, what more needs to be said?

 

[RPI]

Guardian did a poll of the public on 15 August

Which train company would you prefer to travel with?
90% Virgin Trains
10% FirstGroup

And I expect if you did a poll on the same people asking "have you ever travelled on a First train" the results would be....

Yes 10%
no 90%

 

[jon0844]

So the 90% will all boycott First come December then. What's the problem? They can vote with their feet and their wallet and hit First hard.

Or, more likely, they'll travel as normal and notice the trains look the same and they even recognise some of the staff.

 

[chris89]

So the 90% will all boycott First come December then. What's the problem? They can vote with their feet and their wallet and hit First hard.

Or, more likely, they'll travel as normal and notice the trains look the same and they even recognise some of the staff.

Won't happen at all. People just voting 'Virgin' as thats what they know and most likely never used First before.

We have until the 9th with Virgin anyway so still some time left to go with them, Shall look forward to what First Group can for the WCML especially since i use it a lot.

Also the same for there long distance services as last used them over a decade ago, more used to First Scot Rail between Edinburgh - Armadale or Armadale - Glasgow Queen Street.

Chris

 

[jon0844]

Won't happen at all. People just voting 'Virgin' as thats what they know and most likely never used First before.

Hence the more likely scenario I'd added.

People won't care. How many cared when Virgin lost its other franchise?

 

[Nym]

Why do Bombardier say you can then?

Because they have the blueprints and I don't, feasibility is more than just being able to insert transformers into the required space.

And if I'm thinking correctly, the project from Bombardier was only for the Class 220 vehicles at four car length, the transformer size fits and there is no need for an HV busbar as there is only one transformer vehicle.

 

[SprinterMan]

Hence the more likely scenario I'd added.

People won't care. How many cared when Virgin lost its other franchise?

I completely agree with this tbh, the petition annoys me greatly. People like Virgin the brand, not Virgin Trains. They should just let FirstGroup get on with it, as they are liable to do a better job than Virgin.

Progress!

 

[tbtc]

How many cared when Virgin lost its other franchise?

How many XC users noticed? My wife still talks about the "Virgin" trains to Birmingham (from Sheffield) - I wonder if you asked 100 XC users whether their service was run by Virgin or Arriva you'd find more said Virgin?

 

[jon0844]

Suggest it to the Guardian?!