Special needs children denied free first class upgrades

jon0844 · 20 Aug 2013

Two adults for ten children sounds inadequate to me. Not just the fact it's one adult per five children, but the fact that one adult might be needed to assist a child going to the toilet, go and pick up tickets and deal/speak to others - leaving just one person now looking after 9 (or 10) children alone.

No school trip on public transport that I've EVER seen would have such few adults. What my opinion has to do with the Daily Mail, I have no idea.

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Domh245 · 20 Aug 2013

I am a young leader at a Beaver scout group (6-8 years old) and there is a minimum ratio of 1 adult to 6 children. Considering that there are children both older, and younger, a ratio of 1:6 would be a good compromise, but just because that is a minimum, it doesn't mean that you could get away with it. I would always work on an assumption of meeting the ratio, even with an adult away, so for a group of this size, 3 adults. I would also agree that if I were going to plan a trip such as this involving train travel I would reserve seats, never leaving it to chance, because although there are some nice people on public transport, there are also those who are very much the opposite and won't budge from their seats.

Oswyntail · 20 Aug 2013

ModernRailways said:
The 'Special Needs' part has. If it was just a normal passenger it would be a non-story and no one would care.....

To an extent. But, to me, the nub of the story was that a TM apparently justified an action in a way that showed an unacceptable attitude towards disability. However, the discussion has chiefly been about the liability, responsibility, and behaviour of the group and its leaders, to the extent that some people have written with absolute certainty about it, based on minimal evidence.
As you say, a rude TM is not a particularly rare beast, and, generally members here are not beyond criticising - and defending - them. But not this time. Are we, perhaps, uncomfortable about the place of Special Needs children in society?

jon0844 · 20 Aug 2013

If the TM did say those things, yes, it does show a massive disregard to people with special needs. That element would make a valid story in itself, but is the one aspect that can't be verified and puts us in the same category as many other stories that have been reported (remember the wheelchair man going to Guide Bridge?).

However, the rest of the story seems to rely solely on the fact that these children had special needs and were in some way unable to remain in standard class, possibly having to sit on the floor, and this was out of order.

I think some people may well not realise a distinction between a physical disability and special needs, thus are of the opinion that they perhaps needed to have a seat and to have them sitting on the floor was awful.

Did the children have a problem with this? Was sitting by the toilet such a hardship when there are seats there and people sit by the toilet every day of the week on trains (including those in a wheelchair).

Oswyntail · 20 Aug 2013

jonmorris0844 said:
.....However, the rest of the story seems to rely solely on the fact that these children had special needs and were in some way unable to remain in standard class, possibly having to sit on the floor, and this was out of order......

When i originally read the story, I didn't imagine that the children were in any way more unable than anyone else to stay in standard. Simply that the carers had asked if they could sit in first, and been refused by the TM with a comment along the lines of "they don't want your sort in there". No one "demanded" a "free upgrade", but perhaps did try to "play the special needs card", but that is as justifiable - no more, no less - as saying "My Gran can't stand" or the like. And yet criticism of teh TM seems to have been lost amongst criticism of the group and its carers.

jon0844 · 20 Aug 2013

I've continued to mention the TM and others have too, even though I have pointed out that I find it rather unlikely (in my opinion) for anyone to say such things - even if thinking it. Of course, thinking such things is bad - but we haven't yet developed mind reading.

That isn't to say it couldn't possibly have happened. I'm sure rail staff, like anyone in a public facing organisation, has lost it and told a member of the public to **** off, but the whole story is made to outrage people because of the words supposedly uttered.

I, personally, feel that some of the facts are inaccurate or exaggerated.

Antman · 20 Aug 2013

jonmorris0844 said:
I, personally, feel that some of the facts are inaccurate or exaggerated.

Me too...............and that's putting it mildly

Deerfold · 20 Aug 2013

Oswyntail said:
No one "demanded" a "free upgrade", but perhaps did try to "play the special needs card", but that is as justifiable - no more, no less - as saying "My Gran can't stand" or the like. And yet criticism of teh TM seems to have been lost amongst criticism of the group and its carers.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/rail-workers-refuse-special-needs-2158571

DailyRecord said:
After complaining time and again, Stage Right leaders say the train manager still refused to let the children sit in business class.

Perhaps that's not technically "demanded" but I'd imagine "complaining time and again" would be very irritating and would sound very like an upgrade was being demanded.

Ferret · 20 Aug 2013

Deerfold said:
Perhaps that's not technically "demanded" but I'd imagine "complaining time and again" would be very irritating and would sound very like an upgrade was being demanded.

Having been told no once, did they expect a change of mind?! Crumbs, no means no, not a starting point for negotiations.

work-traveller · 20 Aug 2013

Steve Ford said:
Me too...............and that's putting it mildly

Here here - but don't let that get in the way of the foaming mouthed 'commenters' on the Daily record website. It's their human right to get indignant about an incident that's a) nothing to do with them and b) they don't have verifiable knowledge of. They probably double up as the people who complain about TV programmes they've not actually seen

6Gman · 20 Aug 2013

Two observations:

1. If this was a XC service was it a single Voyager? If so, first class seating capacity is only 26. So finding 12 seats for a "free upgrade" would be a challenge.

2. Was the journey Edinburgh - Motherwell? If so, scheduled journey time 40 minutes. Hardly time for repeated requests/ refusals for an upgrade?

Oswyntail · 20 Aug 2013

Deerfold said:
Perhaps that's not technically "demanded" but I'd imagine "complaining time and again" would be very irritating and would sound very like an upgrade was being demanded.

Depends what they were complaining about. It could equally well have been complaining about being told they were not getting an upgrade because the kids were unsuitable. We just don't know.

alastair · 20 Aug 2013

Domh245 said:
I am a young leader at a Beaver scout group (6-8 years old) and there is a minimum ratio of 1 adult to 6 children. Considering that there are children both older, and younger, a ratio of 1:6 would be a good compromise, but just because that is a minimum, it doesn't mean that you could get away with it. I would always work on an assumption of meeting the ratio, even with an adult away, so for a group of this size, 3 adults. I would also agree that if I were going to plan a trip such as this involving train travel I would reserve seats, never leaving it to chance, because although there are some nice people on public transport, there are also those who are very much the opposite and won't budge from their seats.

Maybe I have misunderstood your point, but why should people already seated "budge" and why would their disinclination to do so make them "not nice"? I think your plan to reserve seats is excellent but if you did not you seem to be suggesting that passengers should give up their seats to your scouts. Why should a 6/8 year old be less able to stand than anyone else? When my son was that age I would not have dreamed of asking someone to give up their seat for him.

Domh245 · 21 Aug 2013

alastair said:
Maybe I have misunderstood your point, but why should people already seated "budge" and why would their disinclination to do so make them "not nice"? I think your plan to reserve seats is excellent but if you did not you seem to be suggesting that passengers should give up their seats to your scouts. Why should a 6/8 year old be less able to stand than anyone else? When my son was that age I would not have dreamed of asking someone to give up their seat for him.

I wasn't going for the idea that people who don't give up their seats are mean and miserable, but that they are just not going to give up their seats, which as you point out, is perfectly within their rights. I guess I just phrased my post badly.

muttynut · 28 Aug 2013

Such a shocking example of bad customer service

alex17595 · 29 Aug 2013

Link

This just came up on my Facebook. Has a bit about a woman with Parkinson's.

Deerfold · 29 Aug 2013

alex17595 said:
Has a bit about a woman with Parkinson's.

It does?

khib70 · 29 Aug 2013

ModernRailways said:
The 'Special Needs' part has. If it was just a normal passenger it would be a non-story and no one would care.

My personal stance should be for everyone to forget the kids have special needs. In my opinion, that shouldn't give you any benefits over other normal passengers. The special needs has been put in deliberately so they can get a story out there.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet in all honesty!

:roll:Jeez. Sometimes this forum just beggars belief.

Heaven forbid that any newspaper anywhere should ever report that any member of rail staff anywhere did anything remotely wrong.

Twelve pages of wagon-circling is good, even for this forum...

YorkshireBear · 29 Aug 2013

Deerfold said:
It does?

The petition says towards bottom this is not the first time. Then has a story about a woman with parkinsons.

Antman · 29 Aug 2013

khib70 said:
:roll:Jeez. Sometimes this forum just beggars belief.

Heaven forbid that any newspaper anywhere should ever report that any member of rail staff anywhere did anything remotely wrong.

Twelve pages of wagon-circling is good, even for this forum...

Jeez..............really:roll:

I find myself in complete agreement with 'Modernrailways' quite honestly

Deerfold · 29 Aug 2013

khib70 said:
:roll:Jeez. Sometimes this forum just beggars belief.

Heaven forbid that any newspaper anywhere should ever report that any member of rail staff anywhere did anything remotely wrong.

Perhaps they did, perhaps they didn't. We've only the word of the other party - who admit that they repeatedly asked for a free upgrade.

YorkshireBear said:
The petition says towards bottom this is not the first time. Then has a story about a woman with parkinsons.

Ah - out default browser at work doesn't show most of the petition text.

I'd be more in favour of the unfortuante incident involving the woman with Parkinson's if it wasn't for the line -

The lady in question was offered ONE free journey as compensation for her many indignities. I am indignant on her behalf. Surely it is discriminating against the disabled if one has to phone a number just to be able to make the same train journey as everyone else?

It's not ideal, I agree, but a train company has far more chance of being able to help with someone who clearly needs some help if they know the person is going to be there...

Cheds · 29 Aug 2013

Cheds said:
As possibly the only poster on here who is a special needs child, I, or rather my Dad, will make a comment....

First off, our usual TOC is Virgin, and their staff, and staff at Carlisle station, are consistently pleasant and helpful and give us just a little extra time when needed or to have a quick word.

Second, we make seat reservations simply because I'm special needs and I'm surprised that a special needs GROUP apparently didn't do this. Just because you're special needs doesn't mean you can't help yourself a bit.

Third, if these kids were refused access to first class BECAUSE they were special needs then the TM and indeed the TOC are rightly in deep doodoo.

Almost everything else is conjecture

cheers

Cheds

Cheds put this up about two weeks ago and little on this thread has added to it. The same applies to the woman with Parkinson's. yes, she (or her family) could perhaps have told XC in advance and that would have helped. Yes, the rail staff involved probably didn't handle it well and if (if) this was deliberate then it is not acceptable or lawful. But, as in the first case, anything else is conjecture because the precise facts are blurred.

I think the thread is exhausted as well.

duncanp · 29 Aug 2013

With regard to the story about the woman with Parkinsons, I note that the headline says "Cross Country trains still discriminating against the disabled"

This link is dated 5th April 2012, so well over a year ago. The headline implies or suggests that all disabled people are discriminated against by Cross Country Trains all the time, and this is not the case.

My mother has bad arthritis and travels between Bournemouth and Birmingham several times a year. She always books assistance beforehand and so far things have worked reasonably smoothly.

Even one time when her train was cancelled, the staff got her on to the next train, and arranged for assistance to be ready at Bournemouth.

I am not saying that they always get it right, but it is equally misleading to say that they always discriminate against all disabled people all of the time.

6Gman · 29 Aug 2013

alex17595 said:
Link

This just came up on my Facebook. Has a bit about a woman with Parkinson's.

The story claims they were sitting outside the toilet "for hours".

Hours?

Edinburgh to Motherwell?

jon0844 · 29 Aug 2013

Seems like it's about 50 minutes to me?? Not even one hour!

DarloRich · 29 Aug 2013

ModernRailways said:
The 'Special Needs' part has. If it was just a normal passenger it would be a non-story and no one would care.

My personal stance should be for everyone to forget the kids have special needs. In my opinion, that shouldn't give you any benefits over other normal passengers. The special needs has been put in deliberately so they can get a story out there.

The point that I ,and others, are trying to make is that the original story as presented suggested that disabled people were being discriminated against. This has then been supported by several posters who seem to think it is acceptable. I do not.

My point has always that IF disabled people are refused access to public transport on the same basis as you or I something is very wrong with our society.

Steve Ford said:
I find myself in complete agreement with 'Modernrailways' quite honestly

Your views on the matter are quite clear. You dont think the disabled should be allowed to travel on the same trains as you:

Steve Ford said:
If these childrens needs really are that special perhaps a minibus should have been hired to transport them?

Deerfold · 29 Aug 2013

DarloRich said:
The point that I ,and others, are trying to make is that the original story as presented suggested that disabled people were being discriminated against. This has then been supported by several posters who seem to think it is acceptable. I do not.

I've not read that into them - I've seen many posts that suggest that the original article does not contain enough information for the alleged discrimination to be clear

DarloRich said:
My point has always that IF disabled people are refused access to public transport on the same basis as you or I something is very wrong with our society.

And on that point I'd agree with you.

Antman · 29 Aug 2013

DarloRich said:
The point that I ,and others, are trying to make is that the original story as presented suggested that disabled people were being discriminated against. This has then been supported by several posters who seem to think it is acceptable. I do not.

My point has always that IF disabled people are refused access to public transport on the same basis as you or I something is very wrong with our society.

Your views on the matter are quite clear. You dont think the disabled should be allowed to travel on the same trains as you:

That is not what I said at all, stop trying to twist things

DarloRich · 29 Aug 2013

Steve Ford said:
That is not what I said at all, stop trying to twist things

With respect i am not trying to "twist things".

I offered, on several occasions, an opportunity for you to express your views in a more coherent and understandable manner. You yourself admitted that i had not understood your position. You did not take any of those opportunities. I offer that opportunity for clarification once again.

In the absence of any clarification or addition on your part I must proceed with the understanding of your position as it currently rests.

jon0844 · 29 Aug 2013

Anyone that wanted to ensure being able to stay together, or get a seat, could consider an alternative like a minibus. I don't think Steve said something that was meant to imply that people with special needs should look at alternatives over anyone else.

Sometimes a train is going to be crowded, and you won't necessarily be able to get on and find room for a group.

Special needs children denied free first class upgrades

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