Unprofessional barrier staff?

cjohnson · 9 Sep 2013

A friend travelled from a London terminus at the weekend. Running late for a wedding, he didn't buy a ticket before boarding. Upon arrival at his destination station, he approached a member of staff at the ticket barriers offering to pay the fare due. The man at the barrier said that a penalty fare was now due as my friend had not purchased a ticket before his journey when there was an opportunity to do so. The penalty fare amount was in the region of £40-£50.

The staff member was beginning to write out the PF details on his pad. My friend, frustrated that he was already running late and at the length of time it was taking for the RPI to fill out the PF form, asked to be 'let off' due to the circumstances. The RPI then said that my friend could just hand over £20 to settle the matter and be on his way. The RPI pocketed the £20, issued no receipt, ticket or PF form, and let my friend through the ticket gates.

With the caveat that I wasn't present during the events above (but I have no reason to doubt my friend's story) that seems like pretty poor behaviour from the RPI. How easy is it to get away with such things and make an extra few quid on the sly every day? Should he raise the matter with the TOC concerned?

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Aictos · 9 Sep 2013

It looks like it was equally unprofessional of your friend to have NOT brought a ticket before travelling then asking the staff to "let him off", what makes your friend any different to every other passenger? I'm running late for a wedding sadly isn't a valid excuse.

Equally too, the staff was quite correct in issuing a PF however they shouldn't have just taken the £20 as they haven't followed the cash regulation rules which are in place to protect not just the staff but also the passenger, IMO the staff member would probably be in a meeting with a manager to explain their actions and why they didn't follow proper procedures.

DaveNewcastle · 9 Sep 2013

I hesitate to agree that the RPI acted improperly as my reading of the story is that it was the passenger who made the first 'improper' suggestion. It takes two in such situations, and I read it to say they both acted improperly.(Or perhaps you are going to write a stern letter to your friend as well? ! ! )

I'm not persuaded that there is very much benefit to be found from writing to the Company; I'm assming that there is no evidence for anyone to investigate.

maniacmartin · 9 Sep 2013

If the passenger made it very clear that time was his biggest priority then I'd say the RPI was doing him a favour by not making him wait for the receipt. For all you know the RPI completed the paperwork after he had left?

IanXC · 9 Sep 2013

maniacmartin said:
If the passenger made it very clear that time was his biggest priority then I'd say the RPI was doing him a favour by not making him wait for the receipt. For all you know the RPI completed the paperwork after he had left?

Although the amounts don't seem to tally for that. I wonder how much of the PF was completed before this - perhaps the receipt will arrive by post!

Urban Gateline · 9 Sep 2013

I would report it to the TOC with the exact date and time. Management can see how much that RPI cashed up on the day and the paperwork to go with it, so if there is a discrepancy then that RPI can be dealt with. There will also be CCTV around the Ticket Barriers. Theft is a dishonesty crime and any RPI involved in that should not be in the job.

The above is on the assumption that the RPI did not then fill out the paperwork and simply kept the £20 for himself. Another problem is that if the PF was due to be between £40-£50 then why would a PF for £20 be issued...that is clearly not following procedures but I guess on the paperwork he could lie about the starting station to make a lower PF applicable! :roll:

island · 9 Sep 2013

Last I checked there is supposed to be a passenger's signature on a penalty fare notice.

I do wonder which London terminus (sic) your friend travelled from, as from memory ticket barriers are in place at all London terminals where penalty fares trains operate. Unless perhaps it was an odd London Midland service departing from a Virgin platform at Euston?

Urban Gateline · 9 Sep 2013

island said:
Last I checked there is supposed to be a passenger's signature on a penalty fare notice.

I do wonder which London terminus (sic) your friend travelled from, as from memory ticket barriers are in place at all London terminals where penalty fares trains operate. Unless perhaps it was an odd London Midland service departing from a Virgin platform at Euston?

How about FCC from KGX, where barriers at the EC side are often open, very easy to board an FCC train there and get off at an intermediate barriered station

SteamPower · 9 Sep 2013

You wouldn't board an aeroplane without buying a ticket, so why a train? Unless ticket purchasing facilities are not available at your starting point it's inexcusable.

tony6499 · 9 Sep 2013

When I was issuing Penalty Fares many times someone would hand over the £20 and refuse to give details and simply walk off, not sure of the legalities of then detaining someone to insist they gave their name and address.

All we would do is write out the ticket , put a cross through it noting on it the customer walked off and leave the top copy (customers receipt) in the book.

cjohnson · 9 Sep 2013

HLE 13 said:
It looks like it was equally unprofessional of your friend to have NOT brought a ticket before travelling then asking the staff to "let him off", what makes your friend any different to every other passenger? I'm running late for a wedding sadly isn't a valid excuse.

Absolutely - I'm not in any way defending my friend's actions, but was concerned at the apparent cavalier attitude of the barrier staff.

island said:
I do wonder which London terminus (sic) your friend travelled from, as from memory ticket barriers are in place at all London terminals where penalty fares trains operate. Unless perhaps it was an odd London Midland service departing from a Virgin platform at Euston?

Not sure how he managed to get through the gates at London as I made the same trip half an hour before and the barriers were definitely in operation!

tony6499 said:
When I was issuing Penalty Fares many times someone would hand over the £20 and refuse to give details and simply walk off, not sure of the legalities of then detaining someone to insist they gave their name and address.

All we would do is write out the ticket , put a cross through it noting on it the customer walked off and leave the top copy (customers receipt) in the book.

Thanks - it sounds possible that this may have been the course of action the RPI took, and my friend may have been jumping to conclusions about the RPI 'pocketing' the £20 for himself (even though that is how it looked to him at the time).

VauxhallandI · 9 Sep 2013

DaveNewcastle said:
I hesitate to agree that the RPI acted improperly as my reading of the story is that it was the passenger who made the first 'improper' suggestion. It takes two in such situations, and I read it to say they both acted improperly.(Or perhaps you are going to write a stern letter to your friend as well? ! ! )

I'm not persuaded that there is very much benefit to be found from writing to the Company; I'm assming that there is no evidence for anyone to investigate.

I read it that the guy asked to be let off. It was the RPI that suggested twenty pounds should be handed over?

Squaddie · 9 Sep 2013

cjohnson said:
A friend travelled from a London terminus at the weekend. Running late for a wedding, he didn't buy a ticket before boarding.

"Running late" seems to be a very common excuse for all sorts of things these days. But... just how disorganised do you have to be to be running so late for a wedding that you haven't got time to buy a train ticket?

talltim · 9 Sep 2013

My wife was late for our wedding. A sign of things to come...

Haywain · 9 Sep 2013

Before accusing the RPI of unprofessional behaviour your 'friend' should perhaps consider whether, as someone who is a self confessed fare evader and who believes they have paid a bribe to avoid the correct course of action, they would be complaining from a position of strength.

If it is found to have been a bribe, your 'friend' and the RPI could both find themselves in court.

island · 9 Sep 2013

Haywain said:
Before accusing the RPI of unprofessional behaviour your 'friend' should perhaps consider whether, as someone who is a self confessed fare evader and who believes they have paid a bribe to avoid the correct course of action, they would be complaining from a position of strength.

If it is found to have been a bribe, your 'friend' and the RPI could both find themselves in court.

Agreed. Sleeping dogs and all that.

cjohnson · 9 Sep 2013

Johngill100 said:
I read it that the guy asked to be let off. It was the RPI that suggested twenty pounds should be handed over?

According to my friend, yes; it was the RPI who suggested the £20 would 'settle' the matter.

Squaddie said:
"Running late" seems to be a very common excuse for all sorts of things these days. But... just how disorganised do you have to be to be running so late for a wedding that you haven't got time to buy a train ticket?

His excuse was that he was quite hungover (for a 5pm wedding :roll: )

Haywain said:
Before accusing the RPI of unprofessional behaviour your 'friend' should perhaps consider whether, as someone who is a self confessed fare evader and who believes they have paid a bribe to avoid the correct course of action, they would be complaining from a position of strength.

If it is found to have been a bribe, your 'friend' and the RPI could both find themselves in court.

My friend (yes, an actual friend, despite what those quotation marks suggest!) offered to pay the fare at (what he believed to be) the first opportunity. Thus I don't think he can be described as a "self confessed fare evader". (In hindsight, I should have added a "?" to the end of the thread title.)

I'm still intrigued how easy it is for RPIs etc. to 'charge' a £20 PF and not officially account for it though...

EM2 · 9 Sep 2013

I have seen a fairly well-known television actor walk up to barrier staff, simply fish out £20 from his pocket, give it to the staff and they then let him walk straight out. Barely a word was exchanged!

Flamingo · 9 Sep 2013

Haywain said:
Before accusing the RPI of unprofessional behaviour your 'friend' should perhaps consider whether, as someone who is a self confessed fare evader and who believes they have paid a bribe to avoid the correct course of action, they would be complaining from a position of strength.

I'd agree with this. I'm not saying that every member of staff is squeaky clean, but a reasonable explination for the RPI's actions has been posted by Tony 6499 from his experience issuing PF's. It might be the RPI charged £20 as they were being "nice" and decided to charge the minimum they could, and decided not do delay the guy any further as he was in a hurry.

CyrusWuff · 9 Sep 2013

cjohnson said:
I'm still intrigued how easy it is for RPIs etc. to 'charge' a £20 PF and not officially account for it though...

There is no requirement to take a passenger's details where a Penalty Fare is paid in full at the time of issue, but Section 1 (the journey details and why the PF has been issued, along with the Authorised Collector's ID) MUST be completed.

Exact accountancy procedures vary from TOC to TOC, but will usually involve issuing a "ticket" through Avantix Mobile from the relevant "Any <TOC> Station" pseudo location to "Penalty Payment" (NLC J777) with the price adjusted accordingly and the PFN Number entered in the "Photocard" box. This would then be included as part of the RPI's shift documentation.

Haywain · 9 Sep 2013

cjohnson said:
According to my friend, yes; it was the RPI who suggested the £20 would 'settle' the matter.

My friend (yes, an actual friend, despite what those quotation marks suggest!) offered to pay the fare at (what he believed to be) the first opportunity. Thus I don't think he can be described as a "self confessed fare evader". (In hindsight, I should have added a "?" to the end of the thread title.)

I'm still intrigued how easy it is for RPIs etc. to 'charge' a £20 PF and not officially account for it though...

This was after your friend had asked how much it would take to settle the matter, according to your original post (where you did not appear to be suggesting that your friend was actually trying to pay the fare). Bribery hinges on the suggestion and payment, so the fact that the RPI suggested what would be an appropriate amount would not stop it being bribery.

However, I have no reason to assume that the amount was not accounted for, and nor do you.

Clip · 9 Sep 2013

cjohnson said:
I'm still intrigued how easy it is for RPIs etc. to 'charge' a £20 PF and not officially account for it though...

cjohnson said:
The staff member was beginning to write out the PF details on his pad. ?

tony6499 said:
When I was issuing Penalty Fares many times someone would hand over the £20 and refuse to give details and simply walk off, not sure of the legalities of then detaining someone to insist they gave their name and address.

All we would do is write out the ticket , put a cross through it noting on it the customer walked off and leave the top copy (customers receipt) in the book.

Therre you , he started to write it out and just took the £20 then filled the rest in. Bit naughty of him to do so but I guess your friend should appreciate that he did so, though it couldnt have been to long a journey for a double the single PF of £40-50 though.

ETA: Are you sure it was a real RPI also and not just some bloke in a hat and jacket with a notepad

yorkie · 9 Sep 2013

SteamPower said:
You wouldn't board an aeroplane without buying a ticket, so why a train? Unless ticket purchasing facilities are not available at your starting point it's inexcusable.

Such an analogy and blanket statement is just wrong. Some Train Companies welcome selling tickets on board. Most tolerate it and sell Anytime tickets on board. But it's common in the 'Network Area' aka London & the South East for commuter TOCs to require compulsory purchasing before travelling, denoted by enforcement of a Penalty Fares Scheme.

In this particular case, it sounds like the OPs friend was correctly issued a Penalty Fare and has no grounds for complaint.

However that doesn't mean the same situation can apply to all train journeys - far from it!

bb21 · 9 Sep 2013

Did I read it right?

If the Penalty Fare is over £40 then the single fare due is actually over £20, so the OP's friend has not even paid his correct fare.

Mojo · 9 Sep 2013

cjohnson said:
I'm still intrigued how easy it is for RPIs etc. to 'charge' a £20 PF and not officially account for it though...

At my place quite easy; if you start writing one just scribble 'Cancelled' and return all three copies of the form at the end of the shift (or the next shift if you go straight home).

Clip · 9 Sep 2013

bb21 said:
Did I read it right?

If the Penalty Fare is over £40 then the single fare due is actually over £20, so the OP's friend has not even paid his correct fare.

Thats what I gather from the OP which makes it even more a funny story.

OP - were there RPIs when you passed through the station earlier. as you mentioned?

cjohnson · 10 Sep 2013

bb21 said:
Did I read it right?

If the Penalty Fare is over £40 then the single fare due is actually over £20, so the OP's friend has not even paid his correct fare.

Yes - the SDS for the journey in question is around £22.

Clip said:
Thats what I gather from the OP which makes it even more a funny story.

OP - were there RPIs when you passed through the station earlier. as you mentioned?

At the destination station the barriers were closed and there was at least one RPI present.

142094 · 10 Sep 2013

tony6499 said:
When I was issuing Penalty Fares many times someone would hand over the £20 and refuse to give details and simply walk off, not sure of the legalities of then detaining someone to insist they gave their name and address.

All we would do is write out the ticket , put a cross through it noting on it the customer walked off and leave the top copy (customers receipt) in the book.

You'll often find this increases when the Police/BTP are around as well - i.e. no doubt some of the people will be 'involved' with the coppers and £20 is an easy get out of jail free ticket.

stevefreestone · 10 Sep 2013

SteamPower said:
You wouldn't board an aeroplane without buying a ticket, so why a train? Unless ticket purchasing facilities are not available at your starting point it's inexcusable.

You'll be surprised. I got on the train once at Gainsborough Lea Road, got off at Doncaster and the revenue staff examining that day wanted to penalty charge me because the conductor was being a lazy sod and hadn't bothered selling tickets. I demanded a manager who sorted it out in the end. How many others were 'caught' when facilities were not available?

Are they on commission?

PS Manager let me through for free in the end, she wasn't happy with them either, although I still had to pay a single to get back so it wasn't much of a saving.

34D · 10 Sep 2013

I remember late at night (when I was driving a rail replacement bus) the ticket seller who checked passengers as they boarded pocketed a tenner, didn't issue a ticket, then bragged to me what he'd done.

Unprofessional barrier staff?

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