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Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

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yorksrob

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The new Metrolink line that leaves the original Metrolink line just before the former Oldham Werneth station on one of the lowest radius lines is one indeed one to make the mind boggle on how one of "Newton Heath's Finest" would handle that particular task...:D

Judging by some 142's performance on the curve North of Carnforth towards Skipton, my guess would be dead slow then stop.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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It sounds like now would be a good time to convert Atherton rather than resignal it and allowing less new DMUs to be built (or built and used on other lines). Perhaps though, if the 4tph is well used in the next ten years, it will push up the business case to convert to Metrolink.

Whilst NR line projects appear to be financed from the existing national rail budget, any new Manchester Metrolink project has to ensure that finance is available to make all needed infrastructural works required and if needed, to construct new line extensions. Do not forget the current matter of the proposed Manchester Metrolink Trafford Park line is still one that awaits a confirmatory date in order to allow any works to so commence.

I did ask in an earlier posting some time ago about how the underlying geological ground strata under parts of the Atherton line which passes over parts of the Lancashire coalfield could be a reason for the current speed limits on that line, but no-one saw fit to answer that query.
 

yorksrob

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It sounds like now would be a good time to convert Atherton rather than resignal it and allowing less new DMUs to be built (or built and used on other lines). Perhaps though, if the 4tph is well used in the next ten years, it will push up the business case to convert to me.

For those obsessed with turning everything into a tramline maybe.

The Atherton line is a fully integrated part of the network forming part of the link west of Wigan and good connections East via both Victoria and Oxford Road. It is soon to have a suburban level of service of four trains per hour.

I see little benefit to the passenger of slowing this down to a tram.
 

pemma

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It sounds like now would be a good time to convert Atherton rather than resignal it and allowing less new DMUs to be built (or built and used on other lines). Perhaps though, if the 4tph is well used in the next ten years, it will push up the business case to convert to metrolink.

TfGM priced up the costings for 10tph to Walkden and 5tph to Wigan as part of an expanded Metrolink network and the cost of conversion (including electrification) plus purchase of new vehicles came to a whopping £280m, their conclusion was that would be poor value for money and they wouldn't re-examine the proposal in it's current form and would instead look at alternatives including non-Metrolink alternatives.

It's not surprising they thought £280m was poor value for money, that would be enough to buy brand new DMUs to run all non-electrified services in Greater Manchester. Maybe if the Atherton line would generate 1,000 passengers per hour they could justify that kind of expenditure. Some of the Metrolink costings would have involved removing Northern TVMs and CIS and installing brand new Metrolink ones in their place - a bit of a waste. I don't know how much Network Rail are spending on the Atherton Line in the coming years but as the Northern Hub budget is £600m, the cost of any infrastructure changes will be very cheap in comparison to the cost of a Metrolink conversion.
 
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yorksrob

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I hope that the new franchise includes a commitment to having working toilets on trains, particularly on Sundays. This is an area where 'classic' Northern has been a bit slapdash in the past.
 

Philip C

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TfGM priced up the costings for 10tph to Walkden and 5tph to Wigan as part of an expanded Metrolink network and the cost of conversion (including electrification) plus purchase of new vehicles came to a whopping £280m............

I'm not implying that the Atherton route business case was particularly good value, nor that major works are not justified at Bank Station. I do, however, point out that the cost of upgrade works at this one London Underground/DLR station is £563m or just over twice the cost of the whole Manchester-Atherton-Wigan scheme.

Whopping might be a good description of £280m to you or I, but as a one-off spend to create a trans-formative infrastructure it is not that great. What the best long-term arrangement for the Atherton Line might be is, of course, open to discussion.
 

yorksrob

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That does only have a 10mph speed limit you know

Well, they normally trundle round quite happily, but there was an occasion on a 142 where it took about ten minutes to get around it and it didn't seem like it was going to make it.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I hope that the new franchise includes a commitment to having working toilets on trains, particularly on Sundays. This is an area where 'classic' Northern has been a bit slapdash in the past.

My prediction is that will get worse rather than better once everything has retention tanks! <D
 

Greybeard33

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Are there any plans to increase the speed limit on the Atherton line ?
The current 50 mph can omly be regarded as pathetic for a modern railway.
The April 2015 NR Route Specification says that, for SRS H.35 Wigan Wallgate - Manchester Victoria, the predominant linespeed will be increased to 75mph by 2019.
It sounds like now would be a good time to convert Atherton rather than resignal it and allowing less new DMUs to be built (or built and used on other lines). Perhaps though, if the 4tph is well used in the next ten years, it will push up the business case to convert to metrolink.
I thought that the resignalling to enable 4tph on the Atherton line was completed in CP4 and indeed was needed for the temporary timetable during the Farnworth Tunnel single track working last year?

I should think that the business case for linespeed improvements assumes that there is no realistic prospect of conversion to Metrolink in the foreseeable future.[/QUOTE]
 

sprinterguy

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Well, they normally trundle round quite happily, but there was an occasion on a 142 where it took about ten minutes to get around it and it didn't seem like it was going to make it.
Indeed, I've been on a heavily loaded 142 that stuck on the tight curve at Gateshead. The Driver showed some technique in inching the struggling unit forward, so I'm guessing that it wasn't the first time that it's happened!
 

yorksrob

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Indeed, I've been on a heavily loaded 142 that stuck on the tight curve at Gateshead. The Driver showed some technique in inching the struggling unit forward, so I'm guessing that it wasn't the first time that it's happened!

Nudge and hope :lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
My prediction is that will get worse rather than better once everything has retention tanks! <D

I fear you may well be correct !
 

pemma

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Whopping might be a good description of £280m to you or I, but as a one-off spend to create a trans-formative infrastructure it is not that great. What the best long-term arrangement for the Atherton Line might be is, of course, open to discussion.

Question is can that level of expenditure be justified if it means there's limited funds for other transport improvements in the Greater Manchester as a consequence of that?
 

po8crg

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TfGM priced up the costings for 10tph to Walkden and 5tph to Wigan as part of an expanded Metrolink network and the cost of conversion (including electrification) plus purchase of new vehicles came to a whopping £280m, their conclusion was that would be poor value for money and they wouldn't re-examine the proposal in it's current form and would instead look at alternatives including non-Metrolink alternatives.

The only way this would make any sense would have been to build the busway from Ellenbrook to Leigh as a tram line, build a connection from Ellenbrook to the railway/tramway around the Atherton/Walkden area and run 5tph to Leigh and 5tph to Wigan.
 

lejog

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Back onto topic of the Northern Franchise, something has to give in the Manchester area prior to the completion of HS2. There simply isn't enough capacity to keep increasing services from Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Scotland and perhaps London too (clearly not necessary yet but 4tph will be in the next 17 years). A one at a time conversion of local stopping lines to Metrolink is the easiest way free up capacity.

Is this true? I read that the theoretical capacity of Victoria would be 20 or 24tph after remodelling (a train every 5 or 6 mins from each of 4 through platforms seems plausible), while it seems that there will be around 15tph under the new franchises.

I don't know the capacity at Piccadilly, but surely it will be increased with the provision of 4 through platforms and the elimination of moves across the throat?
 

pemma

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A one at a time conversion of local stopping lines to Metrolink is the easiest way free up capacity.

Or significantly reduce rail capacity.

As I mentioned already the conversion of the Altrincham-Sale-Manchester line has directly contributed to the heavy rail line between Slade Lane Junction and Piccadilly reaching it's maximum capacity at peak times.

In earlier posts you've been suggesting single tracking heavy rail routes so that they can be shared with Metrolink, that's not going to free up capacity but is instead going to create more bottlenecks even if there are less heavy rail services as a result of the introduction of Metrolink services.

If you want to free up heavy rail capacity and not create Metrolink bottlenecks either then you need completely separate Metrolink and heavy rail routes, both with double track throughout.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't know the capacity at Piccadilly, but surely it will be increased with the provision of 4 through platforms and the elimination of moves across the throat?

My understanding is the Piccadilly changes will allow by 2019 as a minimum:
* Half-hourly Mid-Cheshire line service in both directions.
* A service to Hazel Grove every 15 minutes, with alternate services continuing beyond Hazel Grove to new Mills Newtown or Buxton.
* Half-hourly local services to Macclesfield in both directions.
* Up to 2 additional return workings an hour to the Airport - one will definitely be from Bradford, the other could be from Chester (at peak times there's no paths to extend services there currently.)
* An additional cross Manchester from Stockport to Bolton every hour (which could be the same as the additional Hazel Grove service.)

I think some provision has also been allowed for an additional long distance WCML services.

Then more capacity will be created once HS2 is built and the London service on the WCML is reduced.
 
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pemma

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I think you are expect too much for the London service on the WCML to be reduced post HS2.

I've seen DfT plans which propose 1tph between Manchester and London via Macclesfield and no regular services between Manchester and London via Wilmslow with the HS2 station at Manchester Airport supposed to take over the role Wilmslow currently serves. Obviously people in and around Wilmslow have objected about that but whether anything is done as a result of their objections is unknown at present.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The only way this would make any sense would have been to build the busway from Ellenbrook to Leigh as a tram line, build a connection from Ellenbrook to the railway/tramway around the Atherton/Walkden area and run 5tph to Leigh and 5tph to Wigan.

You have to understand the particular TfGM reasons that lay behind the choice of that particular line to be chosen for a Guided Busway system.
 

Class 170101

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I've seen DfT plans which propose 1tph between Manchester and London via Macclesfield and no regular services between Manchester and London via Wilmslow with the HS2 station at Manchester Airport supposed to take over the role Wilmslow currently serves. Obviously people in and around Wilmslow have objected about that but whether anything is done as a result of their objections is unknown at present.

I would expect it to be reduced, otherwise the whole point of building HS2 (freeing up paths on the south WCML for more commuter services and freight) would not be realised.

I don't think it will be reduced, simply the trains will serve more intermediate stations - can members see the likes of Wilmslow, Macclesfield, Stoke, Stafford, Coventry, Rugby, Runcorn, Warrington and Wigan accepting fewer trains to / from London when not directly served by HS2?

Now whether West Coast as a franchise would provide these services I wouldn't know but these stations would still want fast services to London and are unlikely to accept poorer journey times.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think it will be reduced, simply the trains will serve more intermediate stations - can members see the likes of Wilmslow, Macclesfield, Stoke, Stafford, Coventry, Rugby, Runcorn, Warrington and Wigan accepting fewer trains to / from London when not directly served by HS2?

Would those services not join HS2 at Brum?
 

pemma

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I don't think it will be reduced, simply the trains will serve more intermediate stations - can members see the likes of Wilmslow, Macclesfield, Stoke, Stafford, Coventry, Rugby, Runcorn, Warrington and Wigan accepting fewer trains to / from London when not directly served by HS2?

1tph between Manchester and London stopping at Macclesfield would be retaining the existing frequency for Macclesfield.

The town of Wilmslow alone can't justify a regular London service, it serves as a North East Cheshire hub something that is less likely once Manchester Airport HS2 opens.

Stockport serves as a South Manchester interchange, it won't be able to justify 3tph to London if there is a significant reduction in connections between London services and local services there.

I'm not sure why you've brought Liverpool, Birmingham and Scottish services in to this given the discussion was around pathing around Manchester Piccadilly post-HS2. Birmingham and Manchester with their very high frequency of London service would surely be the most likely to see cutbacks to existing London services once new HS2 ones are introduced.
 

Class 170101

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Would those services not join HS2 at Brum?

I assume you mean Handsacre near Lichfield?

If so not much for use Rugby, Coventry.

Some might but how would you improve the service to Trent Valley stations like Nuneaton and Tamworth without causing a capacity problem north Handsacre towards Stafford / Stoke where the HS2 services join the WCML?
 

Roose

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I did ask in an earlier posting some time ago about how the underlying geological ground strata under parts of the Atherton line which passes over parts of the Lancashire coalfield could be a reason for the current speed limits on that line, but no-one saw fit to answer that query.
I know. We are all waiting with bated breath for an amateur geologist to chance upon this forum.

Perhaps they are all exhausted after theorising so much how Network Rail really should have known what they were letting themselves in for with the Farnworth tunnelling...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would those services not join HS2 at Brum?
Not sure about all but Stoke and Stafford services (not necessarily as many as now, of course) plus Runcorn, Wigan, Warrington and points north surely will, according to HS2's indicative service plans.

Rugby and Coventry - don't know but perhaps not, being on the 'wrong' side of Birmingham International.
 
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Philip C

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Question is can that level of expenditure be justified if it means there's limited funds for other transport improvements in the Greater Manchester as a consequence of that?

I don't think I'm in disagreement with you over this.
 

fowler9

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I don't think it will be reduced, simply the trains will serve more intermediate stations - can members see the likes of Wilmslow, Macclesfield, Stoke, Stafford, Coventry, Rugby, Runcorn, Warrington and Wigan accepting fewer trains to / from London when not directly served by HS2?

Now whether West Coast as a franchise would provide these services I wouldn't know but these stations would still want fast services to London and are unlikely to accept poorer journey times.

Runcorn won't be affected since Liverpool is not part of any HS2 plans.
 

ChrisHogan

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1tph between Manchester and London stopping at Macclesfield would be retaining the existing frequency for Macclesfield.

The town of Wilmslow alone can't justify a regular London service, it serves as a North East Cheshire hub something that is less likely once Manchester Airport HS2 opens.

Stockport serves as a South Manchester interchange, it won't be able to justify 3tph to London if there is a significant reduction in connections between London services and local services there.

I'm not sure why you've brought Liverpool, Birmingham and Scottish services in to this given the discussion was around pathing around Manchester Piccadilly post-HS2. Birmingham and Manchester with their very high frequency of London service would surely be the most likely to see cutbacks to existing London services once new HS2 ones are introduced.

My understanding is that Birmingham will retain two IC services after HS2 but with extra stops; Manchester could well be similar.
 
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