Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[PR1Berske]

While Burnham hasn't mentioned delays outside Northern's control, it should be noted when Chiltern wanted TPE 170s they got them despite TPE still needing them, when Scotrail wanted Northern 158s they got them despite Northern still needing them, yet when Northern wanted GWR 150s they secured them and then subleased them back to GWR due to GWR still needing them and consequently delayed their own enhancements. Why should the Chilterns, South West and Scotland get different treatment to the North?

A question I would like asking too, though maybe on this forum at least, I've put that question too many times in different contexts

You make a very good point. Northern has not retained nor received what it needs to run a franchise across such a vast geographical area. Coupled with the ongoing RMT action, and you get a picture of a company without the tools to do the job. Whether you agree with franchising or not, there is something wrong with how Northern has been handed these particular cards.

 

[YorkshireBear]

We are probably beyond defending Northern now. But there has been a significant set of poor cards dealt to them.

The large scale issues currently troubling the North of England (and the under capacity that will be caused by the new timetable) have been contributed by all the following issues and partners.

1. Northern industrial action - something which as far as we can tell they have little or no way out of with the Dft. I would put the majority of the blame on the DfT.
2. Northern staffing issues - Northern's fault....
3. Under Capacity on diesel routes - due to Bolton line electrification (Network Rail's fault) and also TPE/Northern committing to a timetable that they realistically do not have enough trains to run. Why everyone wanted 6tph across pennines now I do not know. Could it not wait till new trains arrived? (this is not saying we should delay, but should it have been signed up to in the first place????
4. Cascade of rolling stock - which as discussed above has left Northern in a very tricky situation. I'd point towards DfT, or maybe Northern/TPE for not making a better case?
5. No Growth franchise from 2004 - Still not recovered from this due to all delays. Everyone's collective fault.

My main gripe at the moment is the lack of transparency, someone needs to come out and say as an industry. This is not good enough. We know that. We have messed up. We need you to bear with us for the next 6 months. In which time this is what we are working on doing. With a clear timetable of improvements and when we expect them to come online and the positive impact they will have. No one is doing this. People just keep going on about investment since victorian time, new services, over 3000 seats. No one is standing up to be accountable for this farce that we as an industry have created.

 

[pemma]

1. Northern industrial action - something which as far as we can tell they have little or no way out of with the Dft. I would put the majority of the blame on the DfT.

Both DfT and the shortlisted bidders expected some form of industrial action but I don't think anyone predicted the RMT would start balloting members for industrial action as soon as the franchise started unless they agreed to something that the franchise agreement didn't allow for.

 

[Deerfold]

Why everyone wanted 6tph across pennines now I do not know. Could it not wait till new trains arrived? (this is not saying we should delay, but should it have been signed up to in the first place????

Of course, we have 6tph across the Pennines now, though split between operators. The previous increase in frequency to 5 TPE an hour was odd as the gaps between trains on the Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester section were very peculiar. The decrease in reliability stopped my sister commuting regularly with them due to the much worse reliability afterwards.

Personally (and for my sister) we'd be quite happy with 4 TPE an hour - if they were roughly equally spaced and had enough capacity.

 

[pemma]

Of course, we have 6tph across the Pennines now, though split between operators. The previous increase in frequency to 5 TPE an hour was odd as the gaps between trains on the Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester section were very peculiar. The decrease in reliability stopped my sister commuting regularly with them due to the much worse reliability afterwards.

Indeed. Going back 10 years the plan was half-hourly Manchester Airport to York inter-worked with half-hourly Liverpool to York with an off-pattern Hull service where ever it could be fitted in. Then came Chat Moss improvements and promises of a fast Liverpool to Newcastle via Victoria service meaning that instead became the fast service and meant an even more inconsistent service for those travelling between Manchester/Huddersfield and York instead of a more consistent service. (Leeds is never going to have clock face services to York given it also has XC services.)

 

[exile]

Northern must stay! I'm making a fortune in delay repayments....

 

[fowler9]

Bad day today. From my local station this morning, West Allerton, everything apart from the 06:30 to Oxford Road was cancelled until the 07:25 to Lime Street. I think that was 5 trains. After work pretty much all the South Parkway to Preston trains were cancelled along with the 17:55 from Lime Street to West Allerton. All noted as being due to driver shortage. It's not caused me any major dramas but that is bad.

 

[driver_m]

It's Andy Burnham he cannot tell the truth at any time.

Having read that letter I can't see any complaints with what he's saying. At least he's trying to do something. Where is Steve Rotheram in all this? (Liverpool City Region Mayor) He was happy to go to Lea Green to push the new TPE service but where is he on this? Service has been just as bad out of Liverpool at times .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bad day today. From my local station this morning, West Allerton, everything apart from the 06:30 to Oxford Road was cancelled until the 07:25 to Lime Street. I think that was 5 trains. After work pretty much all the South Parkway to Preston trains were cancelled along with the 17:55 from Lime Street to West Allerton. All noted as being due to driver shortage. It's not caused me any major dramas but that is bad.

How long before an emergency timetable is implemented, I wonder? I think it's needed - thin out the service but diagram longer trains.

 

[Sankey Wire]

Bad day today. From my local station this morning, West Allerton, everything apart from the 06:30 to Oxford Road was cancelled until the 07:25 to Lime Street. I think that was 5 trains. After work pretty much all the South Parkway to Preston trains were cancelled along with the 17:55 from Lime Street to West Allerton. All noted as being due to driver shortage. It's not caused me any major dramas but that is bad.

I travel in on the 0741 from Sankey, which more often than not has been cancelled the past few weeks. The trains home have been erratic too; various delays with different (and often no) reasons given.

Fortunately I had a few bits to finish this evening, so planned on getting the 1825 regardless. However, the number of delays - together with strike action - is beginning to get embarrassing. In a couple of weeks, we will then have the Lime St closure! I get the impression that many Sankey regulars have opted to drive to Liverpool instead, recently.

 

[js1000]

I said last month that I felt Northern and Arriva were in serious trouble.

I had high hopes when they took over the franchise but the service is genuinely shocking.

Delays, constant fares increases, a "modernisation" programme that simply consists of painting the train exterior white (compare with TPE modernisation and there is no comparison). We can talk about the lack of trains but many of the steps they have taken are underwhelming and a kick in the teeth to passengers.

The problem for Northern is that if the unions have any sense with the conductor situation they'll see they are a wounded animal and passenger satisfaction is at an all time low.

 

[The Ham]

I said last month that I felt Northern and Arriva were in serious trouble.

I had high hopes when they took over the franchise but the service is genuinely shocking.

Delays, constant fares increases, a "modernisation" programme that simply consists of painting the train exterior white (compare with TPE modernisation and there is no comparison). We can talk about the lack of trains but many of the steps they have taken are underwhelming and a kick in the teeth to passengers.

The problem for Northern is that if the unions have any sense with the conductor situation they'll see they are a wounded animal and passenger satisfaction is at an all time low.

The problem is that Northern is a very different position to Southern. This could lead to the unions being able to win, however at what cost?

With Southern there was little scope for people to drive and so people had to keep using the trains. That is not always the case for Northern and so you could see a reversal of fortunes, which could ultimately will mean a lower number of staff needed.

As such Northern may be defeated by the unions, but the unions may find that their members find their jobs at risk because the number of services get scaled back. Compare this with DOO being brought in on some routes but there needing to be more services because the franchise is growing and so staff numbers may still grow, even for guard positions.

Alternatively the government/company may take the view that because things are so bad that they may as well push through as many DOO services as possible, as there's a big need to reduce costs. Meaning that the unions may still see their members' jobs at risk, just in much larger numbers than was the original plan.

There is the potential for more than one outcome and it very well may not be one that the unions want.

As such the unions may have to be careful what they wish for.

To try and appease passengers one possible option would be to do what FGW did when they were short of units which was to rotate branch lines which were closed and replace with buses.

 

[Carlisle]

Having read that letter I can't see any complaints with what he's saying. At least he's trying to do something. Where is Steve Rotheram in all this? (Liverpool City Region Mayor) He was happy to go to Lea Green to push the new TPE service but where is he on this? Service has been just as bad out of Liverpool at times .

Isn’t this argument simply mirroring that on Southern during the height of their disruption, with those avidly supporting the unions wanting the franchise immediately replaced hopefully by an organisation subservient to all their preordained red lines,whilst most others realise it’s rather more complex and will eventually require compromise on all sides .

 

[pemma]

Isn’t this argument simply mirroring that on Southern during the height of their disruption, with those supporting the unions wanting the franchise immediately replaced hopefully by an organisation subservient to all their preordained red lines,whilst most others realise it’s rather more complex and will eventually require compromise on all sides .

I recall when FGW were at the worse some said the last thing they wanted was a new operator to take over, as First were at least working to resolve the problems and a new operator might take things back to square one.

 

[pemma]

Having read that letter I can't see any complaints with what he's saying. At least he's trying to do something. Where is Steve Rotheram in all this? (Liverpool City Region Mayor) He was happy to go to Lea Green to push the new TPE service but where is he on this? Service has been just as bad out of Liverpool at times .

Currently showing on Journey Check are the following cancellations.

16:55 Saltburn to Darlington due 17:48
16:57 Stockport to Chester due 18:14
17:02 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street due 17:59
17:16 Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street due 18:36
17:17 Liverpool Lime Street to Preston due 18:20
17:23 Rose Hill Marple to Manchester Piccadilly due 17:53
17:28 Buxton to Manchester Piccadilly due 18:23
17:38 Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street due 18:36
17:44 Newcastle to Metrocentre due 17:54
17:45 Liverpool Lime Street to Wigan North Western due 18:30
18:37 Wigan North Western to Liverpool Lime Street due 19:24
18:47 Preston to Barrow-In-Furness due 20:06
19:34 Oxenholme Lake District to Windermere due 19:53
19:58 Windermere to Oxenholme Lake District due 20:17
20:15 Barrow-In-Furness to Preston due 21:35
20:22 Oxenholme Lake District to Windermere due 20:41
20:50 Windermere to Oxenholme Lake District due 21:09
21:47 Preston to Barrow-In-Furness due 23:06
22:18 Oxenholme Lake District to Windermere due 22:37
22:45 Windermere to Preston due 23:42

I make that 8 that serve Greater Manchester and 6 serving Merseyside but 6 that serve Merseyside is probably a greater proportion of the total services Northern run in Merseyside.

I notice in an article published in the M.E.N. today talking about Burnham's letter, it also includes critical quotes from Wigan MP Lisa Nandy.

 

[fowler9]

A mate of mine is a driver for Northern and he told me the reason for the cancellations due to driver shortage and it sounds at least partially if not totally just down to bad management and hopefully the issues won't last too long.

 

[B&I]

Isn’t this argument simply mirroring that on Southern during the height of their disruption, with those avidly supporting the unions wanting the franchise immediately replaced hopefully by an organisation subservient to all their preordained red lines,whilst most others realise it’s rather more complex and will eventually require compromise on all sides .

How could Northern's inability to employ enough drivers be the unions' fault ? Is there anything in your worldview which can't be blamed on the unions ?

 

[Carlisle]

How could Northern's inability to employ enough drivers be the unions' fault ? Is there anything in your worldview which can't be blamed on the unions ?

It’s the drivers themselves on here that are suggesting a renewed rest day work agreement with their union will probably help solve a lot of northern’s current problems, not me

 

[fowler9]

How could Northern's inability to employ enough drivers be the unions' fault ? Is there anything in your worldview which can't be blamed on the unions ?

Just been chatting to a guard who said it is going to get much worse from Monday, and as you said, it is absolutely nothing to do with the unions.

 

[fowler9]

It’s the drivers themselves on here that are suggesting a renewed rest day work agreement with their union will probably help solve a lot of northern’s current problems, not me

It was more that the rest day agreement was allowed to end rather than the unions not wanting it. Also a backlog of training required. Oh and from the new timetable rolling stock shortages.

 

[PHILIPE]

It was more that the rest day agreement was allowed to end rather than the unions not wanting it. Also a backlog of training required. Oh and from the new timetable rolling stock shortages.

This is being discussed here:-

/www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-rails-problems-in-lancashire.163590

 

[fowler9]

This is being discussed here:-

/www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-rails-problems-in-lancashire.163590

Cheers mate.

 

[B&I]

It’s the drivers themselves on here that are suggesting a renewed rest day work agreement with their union will probably help solve a lot of northern’s current problems, not me

Where is your evidence that the union refused to accept a rest day working agreement ?*

*blind hatred of unions, resentment towards and jealousy of people lucky enough to still be in unionised workforces, and brainwashed nonsense arising from uncritical acceptance of right-wing propaganda, is not evidence

 

[driver_m]

If you have a logjam of people that need to be passed out on routes then you have to either maximise your assets to enable that to happen or have more of the asset to enable that to speed up. Ultimately that's down to the company to sort out. Is it the unions fault that there aren't enough people to get these drivers signed up on routes/traction? No. Other companies have had to deal with significant fleet and route changes. Some better than others. But the 2 main unions are the same at all these vompanies. I'd say your answer is there.

 

[Carlisle]

Just been chatting to a guard who said it is going to get much worse from Monday, and as you said, it is absolutely nothing to do with the unions.

I’m not suggesting unions shoulder all or even most of the blame, but certainly some of it , the very long running and deadlocked RMT dispute alongside the anticipated prospect of ASLEF becoming seriously embroiled suggest all sides have their own agenda here so I wouldn’t take individual staff or manageers word as gospel

 

[B&I]

I’m not suggesting unions shoulder all or even most of the blame, but certainly some of it , the very long running and deadlocked RMT dispute alongside the anticipated prospect of ASLEF becoming seriously embroiled suggest all sides have their own agenda here so I wouldn’t take individual staff or manageers word as gospel

I'll ask the question again. How are the unions to blame if the company fails to arrange a renewed RDW agreement ?

 

[PHILIPE]

I'll ask the question again. How are the unions to blame if the company fails to arrange a renewed RDW agreement ?

Everybody else is discussing it here as it is not a franchise matter:-

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-rails-problems-in-lancashire.163590

 

[ainsworth74]

For further discussion of the issues in the North West that Northern are currently facing along with discussions of the letters that have been sent by Andy Burnham please use the thread linked above.

Many thanks,
ainsworth74