TPE franchise awarded to First

159220 · 31 Mar 2016

Neil Williams said:
For what? The ones announced today appear to be simple Class 800s with uprated engines, fuel tanks and braking resistors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, I would not of posted, if you looked at the attachments you would of seen. I have edited them to link now.

Hitachi press release showing them as hybrid Class 395s meets Class 80x

Though to be fair, the livery on the press release is Hitachi corporate livery.... hmm

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Bletchleyite · 31 Mar 2016

They look exactly the same train, one with a yellow snout and lighter coloured livery, one with a black snout and a darker livery.

Both are 26m end-doored class 800s, not 20m suburban-doored class 395s.

I think the camera angle and livery make them look a bit different.

ChrisTheRef · 31 Mar 2016

Mordac said:
I don't see what benefits any non-tilting stock will have over the 350s for the WCML services, other than enthusiasts thinking the latter aren't "proper" intercity trains, whatever that means. As someone who uses these services several times a week over long distances, I find them very comfortable and actually prefer the mid-coach doors: they make boarding a much speedier affair compared with a Pendo or a Voyager. The only improvements I'd make is to catering and more importantly, add free wifi. If they're going to get non-tilting stock for this route, I'd rather they just took the money and put it towards upgrading Carstairs junction instead.

I doubt these will be used on the WCML, with the announcement about specifically tuning the diesel engines.
I'd guess TPE's remaining 185s will operate Manchester - Cleethorpes and maybe Hull, these new ones will do Liverpool - Edinburgh via Newcastle and the additional Airport - Newcastle service.
Two more new trains are to be announced. I'd guess a 100mph DMU for Manchester - Middlesbrough/Scarborough and a 125mph/140mph tilting EMU for Liverpool/Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh

sprinterguy · 31 Mar 2016

Blamethrower said:
colour scheme is so-so

but don't trains look better without that silly yellow front end?

Not necessarily, but Transpennine Express do seem to have gotten it right with this new scheme. It certainly is a striking livery.

It's good to see the pieces beginning to fall into place with regards the TPE train order. Hopefully it'll curb some of the more enthusiastic speculation on this forum, although I rather doubt it.

47802 · 31 Mar 2016

ChrisTheRef said:
I doubt these will be used on the WCML, with the announcement about specifically tuning the diesel engines.
I'd guess TPE's remaining 185s will operate Manchester - Cleethorpes and maybe Hull, these new ones will do Liverpool - Edinburgh via Newcastle and the additional Airport - Newcastle service.
Two more new trains are to be announced. I'd guess a 100mph DMU for Manchester - Middlesbrough/Scarborough and a 125mph/140mph tilting EMU for Liverpool/Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh

Well as far as the additional diesel capacity goes given Tony Miles on WNXX who has I believe already has had a briefing from TPE is showing pictures of an Irish Loco Hauled set built by CAF as a hint, and also what other have said that's a very strong hint of CAF loco Hauled and presumably 68's, a pretty bizarre choice if you ask me but is allegedly due to manufacturing capacity constraints, presumably if Hitachi could have turned out some AT300 's quicker they would have all been AT300's

sprinterguy · 31 Mar 2016

61653 HTAFC said:
Trains without yellow ends will take some getting used to. Though now that the requirements for yellow ends no longer applies (subject to headlights etc, of course!) I have to wonder if black is the wisest choice? Good for cleaning, not so great for track workers l fear...

It does seem like quite a juxtaposition, going straight from yellow to black front ends. Does it help the high intensity headlight stand out in some way (a lot of existing high intensity headlight fitted stock already has black upper cab fronts, although this could just be a styling decision)?

LNW-GW Joint · 31 Mar 2016

lejog said:
A confusing press release I agree, but the quote about the remaining 25 trains is OUTSIDE the quotation marks of the Hitachi MD's quote. I would guess these comments really belong in the quote from TPE.

I agree with you about the quote, but it is a Hitachi press release.
But why would they even mention the other 25 trains if they were not in negotiations to supply them?
Hopefully, clarification tomorrow.

PS The exact same press release has now appeared on the FirstGroup site, which suggests it was a joint announcement.
So that removes the likelihood of Hitachi providing the remaining trains.
http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2016/31-03-16.aspx

Bletchleyite · 31 Mar 2016

47802 said:
Well as far as the additional diesel capacity goes given Tony Miles on WNXX who has I believe already has had a briefing from TPE is showing pictures of an Irish Loco Hauled set built by CAF as a hint, and also what other have said that's a very strong hint of CAF loco Hauled and presumably 68's, a pretty bizarre choice if you ask me but is allegedly due to manufacturing capacity constraints, presumably if Hitachi could have turned out some AT300 's quicker they would have all been AT300's

Yes, I think that is the constraint - only Hitachi is presently offering a bi-mode solution, and if they can't be built in time they aren't an option. Whereas LHCS can be bi-mode either using a bi-mode locomotive or by swapping them.

I think 68+LHCS would be very welcome - "proper trains" - it isn't just enthusiasts who like them! It would also give massive flexibility to re-form into fewer, longer sets in future when something else, perhaps second-hand ECML Mk4s, becomes available.

47802 · 31 Mar 2016

Neil Williams said:
Yes, I think that is the constraint - only Hitachi is presently offering a bi-mode solution, and if they can't be built in time they aren't an option. Whereas LHCS can be bi-mode either using a bi-mode locomotive or by swapping them.

I think 68+LHCS would be very welcome - "proper trains" - it isn't just enthusiasts who like them! It would also give massive flexibility to re-form into fewer, longer sets in future when something else, perhaps second-hand ECML Mk4s, becomes available.

As an Enthusiast I welcome them, as a regular traveller on that route I don't welcome them, LHCS belongs to the last century IMHO, if one engine packs up on a 185 it can usually still carry on, if one engine on the 68 packs up it will just sit there blocking up the line, still at least hopefully they wont be digging up some clapped out 47 or body snatcher 57. I was a regular commuter on that line when the last Loco Hauled ran certainly didn't expect to see Loco Hauled trains back on that route ever again.

Maybe they could put a Deltic on selected services :lol:

or maybe not.

BurtonM · 31 Mar 2016

That black nose train looks absolutely fantastic.

Xenophon PCDGS · 31 Mar 2016

Neil Williams said:
I think 68+LHCS would be very welcome - "proper trains" - it isn't just enthusiasts who like them! It would also give massive flexibility to re-form into fewer, longer sets in future when something else, perhaps second-hand ECML Mk4s, becomes available.

All this talk of new items on this thread which beggars the question..."Why not new Mk 4s" to be used.

I was wondering how long it would be before the dreaded term "second-hand" raised its ugly head on this thread...

Bletchleyite · 31 Mar 2016

I was going to say that 442s hadn't come up recently, then I saw BurtonM's signature

pemma · 31 Mar 2016

Paul Sidorczuk said:
All this talk of new items on this thread which beggars the question..."Why not new Mk 4s" to be used.

I was wondering how long it would be before the dreaded term "second-hand" raised its ugly head on this thread...

Mk4s apparently aren't that flexible and would be an outdated design for new build due to technical and safety advances.

61653 HTAFC · 31 Mar 2016

YorkshireBear said:
I think the local will come back once they have the capability to do so. The new all fangled intercity sparkly tpe franchise really doesnt want to stop at Morley batley Marsden etc for any longer than neccesary.

You're probably right, at least I hope you are. Pushing for 6tph before the infrastructure improvements is a classic example of putting the cart before the horse of course, but alas that ship has sailed... :roll:

jimm · 31 Mar 2016

While it doesn't clear up whether the other 25 new trains will be coming from Hitachi, Railway Gazette International has the following to say.

The new franchise requires the procurement of a total of 44 new trainsets, and TransPennine Express expects to finalise a separate deal for the remaining 25 trains ‘soon’ with delivery scheduled for spring 2018. These are expected to be electric trainsets primarily for use on Anglo-Scottish routes via the West Coast Main Line.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...nspennine-express-multiple-unit-contract.html

Mordac · 31 Mar 2016

Neil Williams said:
350s aren't bad, but new-generation Desiros are nicer, IMO. The Class 380, despite being a suburban EMU, has a much more InterCity feel to it for some reason - possibly the 23m vehicles help.

I don't think I've ever been in one despite staying in Scotland, I just never use the routes they work on. They do look more Intercity by looking at them. But the 350s, at least the TPE ones (never stepped foot on a LM train so no idea about them) are arranged in an IC layout, at least to my eye. As I said, the only thing missing is proper catering.

ChrisTheRef said:
I doubt these will be used on the WCML, with the announcement about specifically tuning the diesel engines.
I'd guess TPE's remaining 185s will operate Manchester - Cleethorpes and maybe Hull, these new ones will do Liverpool - Edinburgh via Newcastle and the additional Airport - Newcastle service.
Two more new trains are to be announced. I'd guess a 100mph DMU for Manchester - Middlesbrough/Scarborough and a 125mph/140mph tilting EMU for Liverpool/Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh

I realize these won't go there, and I do think they're really good and look great! I was replying to other posters saying they might be IEPs on the WCML (or CAF, who I don't think have any history of building tilting stock, but I welcome being proved wrong). I really hope you're right about the 125mph/140mph tilting EMU, that would be splendid. Could Alstom still make more 390s? That would save on design costs and make an order more feasible.

ScotTrains · 31 Mar 2016

I'm looking forward to these proper intercity trains. Power sockets at all seats, free Wifi, better door layout and spacious seating will be very welcome. Hopefully their First class offer will significantly improve with the addition of onboard hot food facilities. Their currently poor first class offer has been the main reason I've always tried to avoid TPEx. I just hope the remaining 25 units for the Scottish West Coast routes are done to a similar, if not higher, standard. Virgin could do with some proper competition on these routes.

hibtastic · 31 Mar 2016

I am already a big fan of the AT300 / IEP design but wow these ones for TPE look fantastic! I am liking forward to seeing them in the new eastern bay platforms at Waverley!

Looking forward to seeing what will be introduced on the WCML services now!

jimm · 31 Mar 2016

Mordac said:
I realize these won't go there, and I do think they're really good and look great! I was replying to other posters saying they might be IEPs on the WCML (or CAF, who I don't think have any history of building tilting stock, but I welcome being proved wrong). I really hope you're right about the 125mph/140mph tilting EMU, that would be splendid. Could Alstom still make more 390s? That would save on design costs and make an order more feasible.

Both CAF and Hitachi have built tilt trains.

Hitachi has delivered 3ft 6in gauge tilting A-trains (ie same basic family of train as 395s and 800/801/802s) for Taiwan, with two extra sets due for delivery later this year. CAF has built tilting dmus for Spain and for Sardinia.

No more 390s will be built. That generation of Pendolino is no longer in production, with all recent European orders to an updated design.

al.currie93 · 31 Mar 2016

I had expected this much at least

looking forward to the next announcement - and still not taking anything as fact until I see proof!

47802 · 31 Mar 2016

ScotTrains said:
I'm looking forward to these proper intercity trains. Power sockets at all seats, free Wifi, better door layout and spacious seating will be very welcome. Hopefully their First class offer will significantly improve with the addition of onboard hot food facilities. Their currently poor first class offer has been the main reason I've always tried to avoid TPEx. I just hope the remaining 25 units for the Scottish West Coast routes are done to a similar, if not higher, standard. Virgin could do with some proper competition on these routes.

I wouldn't get too excited I doubt they will have a first class kitchen like the East Coast sets, probably a small buffet with a microwave and hot water.

Bletchleyite · 31 Mar 2016

No more 390s, but I wouldn't totally rule out the building of a "Class 391" based on the New Pendolino design at some point in the future.

NotATrainspott · 31 Mar 2016

Neil Williams said:
No more 390s, but I wouldn't totally rule out the building of a "Class 391" based on the New Pendolino design at some point in the future.

And GNWR (Arriva/DB) seem to think that Alstom will deliver another 4 six-carriage Pendolinos for their WCML open-access service. All 24 carriages would need to be compliant with the newest regulations, so why would Alstom not offer the same to other interested operators? If First have gone truly mad and ordered more LHCS then nothing would be off the table for any of their other plans.

richardio123 · 1 Apr 2016

TPE have updated there website with a new logo

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk

TheKnightWho · 1 Apr 2016

jimm said:
Both CAF and Hitachi have built tilt trains.

Hitachi has delivered 3ft 6in gauge tilting A-trains (ie same basic family of train as 395s and 800/801/802s) for Taiwan, with two extra sets due for delivery later this year. CAF has built tilting dmus for Spain and for Sardinia.

No more 390s will be built. That generation of Pendolino is no longer in production, with all recent European orders to an updated design.

Tilting IEPs would be a sight to behold, but I can't see them arriving by 2018 (or ever, really)...

Nymanic · 1 Apr 2016

TheKnightWho said:
Tilting IEPs would be a sight to behold, but I can't see them arriving by 2018 (or ever, really)...

Ideal indeed - plus the seat plan would be relatively consistent with the AT300s. And who knows, maybe they'd even operate in multiple...

But the issue, timescales aside, would be fitting a 26m carriage within our pokey tilt profile. Somehow I can't picture it.

Gareth · 1 Apr 2016

richardio123 said:
TPE have updated there website with a new logo

http://www.tpexpress.co.uk

Reminds me of Carlton Television.

TheKnightWho · 1 Apr 2016

Nymanic said:
Ideal indeed - plus the seat plan would be relatively consistent with the AT300s. And who knows, maybe they'd even operate in multiple...

But the issue, timescales aside, would be fitting a 26m carriage within our pokey tilt profile. Somehow I can't picture it.

It's important to remember that the AT300 design can have 20-26m carriage lengths. Pendolinos are 23.9m in their intermediate carriages. However, I somehow doubt an entirely new design of AT300 tilting derivative is going to be developed for a grand total of 12 5-car sets.

On the subject of the missing 13 sets for TPE North, I expect a short term solution for 2017 - likely 68 hauled - with further IEPs being ordered later.

Solent&Wessex · 1 Apr 2016

Gareth said:
Reminds me of Carlton Television.

Thanks. I knew it reminded me of something!

Starmill · 1 Apr 2016

My last ever TransPennine Express sevice has been cancelled due to a driver shortage. Not that surprised. Staff didn't have a clue, there were none to direct people to a replacement bus and no bus was advertised on the screen and no announcements. Worse, I had to give the bus driver directions because he didn't know where his stops were.

This is representative of the level of service they've offered me these past few years. Let's hope there will be some changes.

yorksrob said:
I suppose so, so long as it includes pricing as well.

I'm sure the price will change... upwards.

TPE franchise awarded to First

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