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Arriva Rail North DOO

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PR1Berske

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Their intention is to cause maximum disruption possible so they will not be bothered if it causes people like us inconvenience; that's what they want. They don't care what ordinary people think of them. The company cannot change its course because it is carrying out franchise obligations. So the aim is to cause maximum disruption to put pressure on the DfT. It won't have the desired effect, but they won't ever see sense and nothing any of us can say will make them change their course.
First things first, I want to say that I am sorry if my time comes across as too harsh. When you book something a month in advance, you don't expect plans to be disrupted by a Trade Union.

I agree with you on one specific point because I made it earlier in this thread. Changes related to DOO will happen because they have to happen, it's in the contract. Nothing is going to stop Northern from introducing DOO, and add we all know, Northern has guaranteed the guard role until franchise end. What we see here is the RMT acting like a stroppy teenager.

I'm so frustrated!
 
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PR1Berske

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So the RMT can get on a train to London to go to the German Embassy to protest but not to the cause of this issue, The Houses of Parliament. Rrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiigggggghhhhttt...
"Why are you here?"
"Because Arriva is German"
"But don't you think..."
"Arriva! German!"
"Yea, yea, I know, but franchises are...."
"GERMAN!!"
"...for Transport, and they're politic....."
"GERMAN!!!"
 

Bletchleyite

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Interesting that they think the public have a concern about operational safety. They really don't. Train travel is much safer than car travel, and I don't know any member of the public who does not think car travel, let alone rail travel, is adequately safe. Some people are, admittedly, scared of flying, but the factors behind that (irrational but natural) fear are rather different than anything involving ground transport.

What they are often concerned about is *personal safety* particularly on late night trains.

That is best provided with a couple of well-trained (and cheaper) security guards on the train (and the driver doing the doors) than one railway guard hiding in the back cab going ding ding, not venturing out for fear of themselves being assaulted.
 

pemma

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"Why are you here?"
"Because Arriva is German"
"But don't you think..."
"Arriva! German!"
"Yea, yea, I know, but franchises are...."
"GERMAN!!"
"...for Transport, and they're politic....."
"GERMAN!!!"

"Go to Arriva's head office in"
"GERMANY?"
"SUNDERLAND!"

To be honest I'm surprised some of the foreign companies haven't started suing the RMT for libel, in particular Abellio for comments John Tilley made to the media relating to the Merseyrail dispute.
 

Robertj21a

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Just when you think that the RMT can't get any sillier.

Poor old Bob Crow - to see all your hard work end up in just a sorry mess. What *progress* has the RMT made since Bob Crow died ? - it just seems to be forever going backwards. Perhaps it will disappear up its own buffers.
 

LOL The Irony

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Just when you think that the RMT can't get any sillier.

Poor old Bob Crow - to see all your hard work end up in just a sorry mess. What *progress* has the RMT made since Bob Crow died ? - it just seems to be forever going backwards. Perhaps it will disappear up its own buffers.
He'd turn in his grave if he found out.
 

ANorthernGuard

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Can I just remind people there are a heck of a lot of Guards on this forum who are fighting for many things including Safety and yes their careers (including myself) and for the record it is Northern who refuse to talk everyone who worked for Northern got an email from the Deputy MD. I do sympathise with people who have plans etc. Yes it is political as well as all the other items (little things like safety, jobs etc.) But remember one thing. Without unions what workers rights would there actually be? The rights that workers have have been long fought over and are slowly being eroded by the conservative government that is a fact. What genuinely frustrates myself and many traincrew on this forum is the fact that we love railways otherwise we wouldn't be here but as we are "Traincrew" or as some seem to think "The Enemy" because we dare to actually speak from experience a lot of people here will always hate us. So be it.
 

Andyh82

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It’s presumably a stunt to try and get news coverage, because the strikes aren’t mentioned on the nationals, and aren’t even guaranteed coverage on the regional news anymore.
 

ANorthernGuard

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It’s presumably a stunt to try and get news coverage, because the strikes aren’t mentioned on the nationals, and aren’t even guaranteed coverage on the regional news anymore.
and who controls the media in this country?
 

pemma

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Don't forget the Conservatives don't have a majority at Westminster so will struggle with any attempt to remove worker's rights. Although, if they get a majority at the next election then not having to comply with EU rules any more will make it significantly easier for them to remove worker's rights.
 

Andyh82

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This German embassy stunt is laughable, and shows that the RMT are actually playing political games surrounding the ownership and nationalisation of the railways rather than the DOO issue.

If it’s all those big bad overseas fat cats that are to be blamed, presumably had Stagecoach won the Northern franchise they wouldn’t be going down the DOO route....
 

Chester1

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Can I just remind people there are a heck of a lot of Guards on this forum who are fighting for many things including Safety and yes their careers (including myself) and for the record it is Northern who refuse to talk everyone who worked for Northern got an email from the Deputy MD. I do sympathise with people who have plans etc. Yes it is political as well as all the other items (little things like safety, jobs etc.) But remember one thing. Without unions what workers rights would there actually be? The rights that workers have have been long fought over and are slowly being eroded by the conservative government that is a fact. What genuinely frustrates myself and many traincrew on this forum is the fact that we love railways otherwise we wouldn't be here but as we are "Traincrew" or as some seem to think "The Enemy" because we dare to actually speak from experience a lot of people here will always hate us. So be it.

I doubt anyone on this site actually hates train staff thats just what you have decided to think because they disagree with something that has a negative affect on you. Personally I think we will eventually get to the point were every rail service is DOO, probably during my life time and few people will care or remember that guards were essential to opperate train services. People negatively affected by major change are always going to think that its awful because it is for them.

Remember the hyperbole about what would happen if Jeremy Hunt didn't back down over junior doctors contracts? He imposed them and everyone moved on. Remember how replacing EMA allowance with an expenses system for sixth formers from low income families was aparently going to cause loads of people to not do A Levels? Hardly anyone who is not politically motivated or that was not directly affected remembers those issues now. DOO is the railways version. Anyone who thinks the Tories are even 1% right is evil, change happens and all but a few die hards move on and forget. I support DOO when the infrastructure and rolling stock are adequate and with Northern the infrastructure is currently inadequate so I don't support it in this instance. I have no doubt that for some guards that means I am either deluded or hate guards!
 

Robertj21a

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Can I just remind people there are a heck of a lot of Guards on this forum who are fighting for many things including Safety and yes their careers (including myself) and for the record it is Northern who refuse to talk everyone who worked for Northern got an email from the Deputy MD. I do sympathise with people who have plans etc. Yes it is political as well as all the other items (little things like safety, jobs etc.) But remember one thing. Without unions what workers rights would there actually be? The rights that workers have have been long fought over and are slowly being eroded by the conservative government that is a fact. What genuinely frustrates myself and many traincrew on this forum is the fact that we love railways otherwise we wouldn't be here but as we are "Traincrew" or as some seem to think "The Enemy" because we dare to actually speak from experience a lot of people here will always hate us. So be it.


Obviously, I can only speak for myself but I certainly don't *hate* guards, train crew in general, or, as far as I know, anybody at all (as long as we exclude Trump, Blair etc :) ). With regard to this particular thread, I suppose the only thing that I might hate is the view expressed - by a minority of train staff - that their jobs should, somehow, be left totally alone, regardless of modernisation, new practices, new equipment and simple common sense.
 

northernchris

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This German embassy stunt is laughable, and shows that the RMT are actually playing political games surrounding the ownership and nationalisation of the railways rather than the DOO issue.

It will unfortunately give the RMT publicity though and as has been mentioned previously the strikes barely make the local news now. It's a shame that to the RMT the owning company of a franchise is more important than the service that is provided. If it is politically motivated there are many angles they could take which I think would increase public support - such as the deterioration in performance, increased short forms, appalling Carlisle contractors, inconsistent approach to Penalty Fares on Airedale/Wharfedale lines etc. Northern certainly feels like a company in limbo and its not fair on the staff nor the passengers.
 

LOL The Irony

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I personally think that Northern should encourage passengers to refuse to show their tickets to RMT members. If they can strike and inconvenience us, we should do the same.
 

Eccles1983

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I personally think that Northern should encourage passengers to refuse to show their tickets to RMT members. If they can strike and inconvenience us, we should do the same.


Do you have an idea how stupid a suggestion that is?

"Ticket please"
"I'm not showing you"

Followed by a penalty fare, complaint and more than likely a lengthy delay.
 
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Shaw S Hunter

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A time has to come where TOC's and passengers take action together against the strikes.

TOCs are powerless when it's the DfT pulling the strings. You'd do better directing at least some of your ire at Grayling and company if only to make them understand just how passengers are suffering as a result of their dogma.
 

LowLevel

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I personally think that Northern should encourage passengers to refuse to show their tickets to RMT members. If they can strike and inconvenience us, we should do the same.

'Oh, I don't have to bother doing some work and depending on how I feel can choose to ignore you or have you booked for a bylaw offence, how distressing'.
 

the sniper

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I personally think that Northern should encourage passengers to refuse to show their tickets to RMT members. If they can strike and inconvenience us, we should do the same.

This is an inconceivably ridiculous comment. I can't even understand how someone could manage to propose something so illogical.
 

Bromley boy

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I personally think that Northern should encourage passengers to refuse to show their tickets to RMT members. If they can strike and inconvenience us, we should do the same.

Huh?

Think about why guards are required to check tickets. It's not for the benefit of the guards, it's to protect the revenue of the TOC.

So why on earth would any TOC encourage passengers not to show their tickets to guards?
 

Tomnick

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A time has to come where TOC's and passengers take action together against the strikes.
Passengers want a safe, reliable, properly staffed and affordable railway?

The unions want a safe, reliable, properly staffed and affordable railway, because that’s in their members’ best interests too.

The TOCs (some, at least) and the DfT want a destaffed railway that’s as cheap to run as possible.

If any two of those are going to “take action together” against the other one, it doesn’t make much sense for it to be in the combination that you suggest...
 

pompeyfan

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Remember when Southern told passengers to tweet the RMT and it completely blew up in their faces.

It makes really depressing reading that people eventually want to deskill and destaff the Railway. I can’t get my head around why passengers actually want fewer trained people on a train. There is no conceivable benefit to joe public by not having a guard in their current form.

I am, however, prepared to say and accept that the driver doing the doors is probably as safe as a guard doing the doors on brand new stock with improved traction interlock and modern CCTV technology.
I can also accept that some members of the guard grade don’t do the role any favours, sitting in cabs the entire journey. I’ve also heard of a person boasting that they’d got through 3 films in a day while they were working a train.

What does the current drivers contact at northern state in regards to DCO/DOO. I’m sure the answer is probably already in this thread but there’s no way I’m reading 86 pages.
 

pemma

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Passengers want a safe, reliable, properly staffed and affordable railway?

The unions want a safe, reliable, properly staffed and affordable railway, because that’s in their members’ best interests too.

The TOCs (some, at least) and the DfT want a destaffed railway that’s as cheap to run as possible.

If any two of those are going to “take action together” against the other one, it doesn’t make much sense for it to be in the combination that you suggest...

Passengers want a visible staff presence, there's already passengers who think Northern run driver only trains because they don't see a visible staff presence on every service they travel on. If you asked passengers whether on pairs of 195s or 331s they want one visual member of staff per portion with the driver doing the doors or one guard, I'm not sure many would choose the guard option.
 
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