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Train leaving early?
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Not just that, there are many journeys where it can be quicker to change at Euston and double-back, for example Hemel Hempstead to destinations on / connected to the north WCML. Lots of routes from southern WCML stations have valid via / not valid via London fares.
Who said anything about a connection ? The question was what time would you get to a station to catch a train, the example was about 5 mins before it was due
This is what was said:Who said anything about a connection ? The question was what time would you get to a station to catch a train, the example was about 5 mins before it was due
The rail industry doesn't appear to expect people to be on the platform as far in advance as you suggest, as otherwise many interchange times would be much longer than they are at present (which would make rail unattractive)yorkie said:
Rather than be anti customer, why not try to think about making rail more customer friendly? That's what most industries do.
Well that's not true, the majority of passengers wouldn't notice or care. Why would they?
I don't know High Wycombe, but I'm not entirely playing devil's advocate here - I don't think a 1 minute connection time is inherently silly. Imagine a two platform station where all interchanges are same platform. 1 minute would make sense then.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Closing doors 2 minutes before departure is ridiculous!
It should be something like 15 seconds before departure, even if the train departs 10 seconds late, it really isn't the end of the world!
Even for HSTs this is achievable, with a good dispatch team, especially as most intermediate stations only have a 2 minute dwell time.
It should be something like 15 seconds before departure, even if the train departs 10 seconds late, it really isn't the end of the world!
Even for HSTs this is achievable, with a good dispatch team, especially as most intermediate stations only have a 2 minute dwell time.
Aictos
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If we're discussing leisure users then no they probably wouldn't however that special breed of traveller aka the commuter will notice everything and will be vocal about it.
That is rather short sighted and naive to think that, this applies to others here note this isn't a anti passenger rant just why I think this is:
IC services do take longer to dispatch then commuter services due to the nature of them which is why doors can and do close up to 2 minutes prior to departure to ensure a on time departure, some operators such as Virgin Trains start the dispatch process and close their doors 40 seconds to departure which is quite reasonable, if Virgin Trains did what you and others here have proposed then pretty much every single service they operated would suffer a late start and that would have a negative impact on them specifically on the brand side as people would associate them with slow and unreliable trains thus affecting their business especially as the dispatch process does take time and takes into account the time for the doors to close and the step to fold away.
But hey as long as that doesn't affect you or others then it doesn't matter or does it?
The other thing as well that you and others seem to miss on is the fact that every single service that runs has a path be it light engine, freight or passenger as it's important that it keeps it's path to avoid causing delay to it's own service and to others as a example a service could leave just 10 seconds late from it's station of origin which could have a knock on effect so ends up late at every station it calls at, all because it left the station of origin late.
Regional and Commuter services can have the dispatch process started as early as 20 seconds to departure while IC services should be 40 seconds to departure however gates where provided at terminus stations can or could be closed a full minute to departure to allow those walking along the platform to board the train to get on it without it affecting the dispatch process and thus have their service depart right time which I believe is important to the safe and reliable running of the raiwlays.
It only takes one obsessive to log the "late" departures and write to the Daily Wail.
The arguements here have made me change my view about having "door closed" times in the public timetable and "wheels rolling" times in the working timetable but I still think that there should be a blanket advice at the point of sale to be on the platform x minutes in advance of the advertised departure time. Only finding a notice telling you that the doors will be shut in your face before the advertised departure time when you reach the platform is too late.
Maybe put something into the T&Cs so people will be aware when booking a ticket? Everyone reads them don't they?!
I noted at St Pancras today that it says 45 seconds. King's Cross is 30 seconds for GN/TL services (I think LNER closes earlier, but didn't see a sign). Euston we know is up to two minutes.
I know some will argue for consistency, but I can see why different stations have different times due to their layouts.
I noted at St Pancras today that it says 45 seconds. King's Cross is 30 seconds for GN/TL services (I think LNER closes earlier, but didn't see a sign). Euston we know is up to two minutes.
I know some will argue for consistency, but I can see why different stations have different times due to their layouts.
cactustwirly
Established Member
I'm sorry but that's a load of wibble!
It frequently happens at intermediate stations, including HST services!
The doors are locked and 2 on the bell is given, and that's a lot later than 40 seconds!
Aictos
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Well you're welcome to your wibble too, I don't know if you actually read my post in full or just decided to quote a quick reply but if you actually took the time to read my post closely you would see why I said what I said what I said which was quite informative for once and keeping in line with forum guidelines...
Your post which does come across rather silly was:
So basically you're saying IC services should shut their doors 15 seconds before departure and when I said this was impossible and why it was a silly policy to enact, your view was simply to state my entire post was wibble!
Your post which does come across rather silly was:
So basically you're saying IC services should shut their doors 15 seconds before departure and when I said this was impossible and why it was a silly policy to enact, your view was simply to state my entire post was wibble!
Hi,
I was just wondering under what circumstances a train is permitted to depart a station before its scheduled departure time. At Doncaster yesterday the 13:55 to Kings Cross was despatched almost 2 mins early to allow the following Kings X service (delayed 12:47) into the platform. Is this because they have the same destination that this is ok, even then it’s not great if you’re going to Peterborough or Newark (where the 12:55 calls and the following train doesn’t). The whole thing seemed a bit pointless anyway in the end...they both ended up late at Kings Cross!
I was just wondering under what circumstances a train is permitted to depart a station before its scheduled departure time. At Doncaster yesterday the 13:55 to Kings Cross was despatched almost 2 mins early to allow the following Kings X service (delayed 12:47) into the platform. Is this because they have the same destination that this is ok, even then it’s not great if you’re going to Peterborough or Newark (where the 12:55 calls and the following train doesn’t). The whole thing seemed a bit pointless anyway in the end...they both ended up late at Kings Cross!
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
The problem is that there is not really a “one size fits all” approach as different stocks and different methods of working take different times.
Trains with guards dispatched by platform staff take longer to be ready to move than DOO trains with the driver responsible for the whole operation; some trains like Pendolinos, especially where they use the RA indicator take the full 40 seconds and ideally could do with a bit longer than that for unforeseen circumstances.
Aictos
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I'm aware of this which is why I don't think that closing doors 15 seconds to departure on services isn't a viable thing, services are all different.
Slam door stock, for example.
DunfordBridge
Member
I cannot believe this argument is raging onwards. What is wrong with idea of getting to the station in enough time or choosing a suitably longer connection time? If you get home or wherever, one hour earlier it is a bonus. Ideally, trains would be scheduled for better connection times so this is where I would criticise TOCs or even the rail industry in general
Obviously, if a train is despatched earlier than the acceptable threshold of 15 seconds say, then someone needs to be taken to task. Misfortune often plays a factor but there is that rare minority of passengers who turn up just in time habitually.
Obviously, if a train is despatched earlier than the acceptable threshold of 15 seconds say, then someone needs to be taken to task. Misfortune often plays a factor but there is that rare minority of passengers who turn up just in time habitually.
Esker-pades
Established Member
It's almost like there are loads of clocks on station platforms.
DunfordBridge
Member
And it is going on a bit and in no way would I say that the discussion answers the question posed by the original poster
DunfordBridge
Member
Bound to cause confusion. I am sure they have more than one platform at Doncaster of suitable length.
matt_world2004
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With radio controlled watches and Internet set phones this doesn't seem a surprise.
atraindriver
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BucksBones
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The only issue as I see it is one of consistency. How on earth are people supposed to remember that GWR is 40 secs but if they then change to, say, Chiltern, it’s 30 secs; then, at Euston, Virgin won’t even allow you onto the platform 1’59” before booked departure time even if the dispatch procedure isn’t started until 40 secs before.
The whole thing needs standardising, whether by changing the WTT to suit doors closing on PTT departure time (together with a LOT of publicity; TV, internet, the lot, to ensure that the policy is widely known about and becomes the established norm thus avoiding people thinking the trains are all late) or make it a standard time before PTT departure, say 1 minute, and again publicise widely (less satisfactory imo).
I know dispatch time differs hugely depending on stock and circumstances but that’s not the public’s problem.
The whole thing needs standardising, whether by changing the WTT to suit doors closing on PTT departure time (together with a LOT of publicity; TV, internet, the lot, to ensure that the policy is widely known about and becomes the established norm thus avoiding people thinking the trains are all late) or make it a standard time before PTT departure, say 1 minute, and again publicise widely (less satisfactory imo).
I know dispatch time differs hugely depending on stock and circumstances but that’s not the public’s problem.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I think the problem is that, if you tell people they have to arrive at the station X minutes before their train is due to leave, that adds X minutes to their total end-to-end journey time. If the journey is from London to Glasgow, then that X minutes is probably insignificant in comparison to the total journey time. But if they are travelling a couple of stops on a local train and will only be on the train for 10 minutes, then telling them to add an extra 2 minutes to their journey may well be significant. Also, depending on the weather, some station platforms can be pretty cold or wet places to hang around on, so telling people to have to wait there for even a couple of minutes doesn't exactly help to make journeys more pleasant.
The way I see it, in the end, it's all about making the railways as attractive to travel on as you reasonably can, in order to tempt more people to use the train instead of their car. If you see in a timetable, that a train listed as - say - 07:34, then for someone who isn't an expert in railway procedures, it's not unreasonable to assume that means that you'll be able to catch the train provided you are on the platform and standing next to the train a few seconds before 07:34. If the public timetables kept to that principle - by showing for the departure times the last time at which you are guaranteed to be able to board the train - then it would make train travel that bit simpler and more user-friendly. And it would mean all those posters telling people to arrive minutes before the train leaves would become unnecessary so the space could be used for something else.
Agreed.
But whenever I've raised this, the excuse has been given that DfT specify maximum journey times. So if the public timetable was amended to reflect the actual times people would need to board, it would fall foul of those times. In other words, it's the tail wagging the dog and the system being against a common sense pragmatic approach.
That's reasonable, the only problem is that different stock has different dispatch procedures and so the timetable would have to take into account the booked traction type. And it might cause problems in the event of a substitution.
Sorry - mental note: use search function!!
Don’t remember there being anything in 3 though, although something may have been scheduled. Ironically it took a good couple of minutes for the late train to roll up, enough that I doubt the first one departing on time would have delayed it. I imagine the decision was taken that the number of passengers affected was probably nil so no-one would really notice!
DunfordBridge
Member
I never realised that Doncaster was so inflexible. A similar thing goes off at York where Scarborough trains can only go from platforms 2, 4 and 5.
Sorry, still not converted to this idea of turning up at the last minute. I do not live far away from Scarborough station but if the pedestrian lights are not in my favour, I would end up missing the train. If I travelled further to the station by car, then there would be more traffic lights to worry about. Admittedly, with the way Scarborough trains were running, it was very tempting to turn up at the last minute in York station.
Taking your example of a local service, some of the stations probably serve smaller communities where the distance to the station is not vast. If the stations are not too close together and there is a fair degree of 60mph running involved, I would still edge my bets on the train winning against the car, even factoring in a decent length of waiting time at the starting station.
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