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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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YorkshireBear

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Who knows?

From my perspective, as a Remoaner, if we held another referendum and it still went in favour of leaving then fair enough, let's just do it! If after more than three years of this shower of the proverbial a majority of people have looked at it and gone "Yes! I want more of this!" then stuff it let's just give it to them. Leave with no-deal and just get it over with. And I would think (and as there's plenty of us on the thread I may be proved wrong) that that broad sentiment goes for quite a few on the Remain side. A second referendum where Leave win again? Well that's the end of the Remain argument as a viable political force in the near if a majority of voters still want more of this.

If Remain wins? Well great at least that's over and done with for the time being and we can start worrying about the DWP killing disabled people:



Or the funding crisis in education:



Or the rise in knife crime:



Or whatever other issues (and they are myriad) are currently facing us and have all been sacrificed on the alter of Brexit. They might get passing coverage, the odd debate in Parliament but so much of Government time, media time and the public attention is just being sucked into the blackhole that represents Brexit.

This is what enraged me most, you get people during the tory leadership campaign saying all that matters is delivering brexit.

No it doesn't I'd say it should be nesr the bottom of the list of things that are currently threatening this country.
 
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Puffing Devil

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Who knows?

From my perspective, as a Remoaner, if we held another referendum and it still went in favour of leaving then fair enough, let's just do it! If after more than three years of this shower of the proverbial a majority of people have looked at it and gone "Yes! I want more of this!" then stuff it let's just give it to them. Leave with no-deal and just get it over with. And I would think (and as there's plenty of us on the thread I may be proved wrong) that that broad sentiment goes for quite a few on the Remain side. A second referendum where Leave win again? Well that's the end of the Remain argument as a viable political force in the near if a majority of voters still want more of this.

If Remain wins? Well great at least that's over and done with for the time being and we can start worrying about the DWP killing disabled people:



Or the funding crisis in education:



Or the rise in knife crime:



Or whatever other issues (and they are myriad) are currently facing us and have all been sacrificed on the alter of Brexit. They might get passing coverage, the odd debate in Parliament but so much of Government time, media time and the public attention is just being sucked into the blackhole that represents Brexit.

Great summary - so much wrong in this country that has been starved of attention and cash with an unnecessary vanity project.
 

edwin_m

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Great summary - so much wrong in this country that has been starved of attention and cash with an unnecessary vanity project.
And if it hadn't been for excessive austerity in the Cameron/Osborne years it's likely fewer people would have been unhappy enough with their government to vote for Brexit in the first place.
 

DarloRich

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I notice Jeremy Corbyn has a plan to stop a no deal Brexit and install himself as a caretaker PM prior to a general election and potentially a new referendum perhaps including remain as an option. The man is deluded. Mr Corbyn is not liked or respected on either or both sides of the house. His unpopularity is the biggest blocker to his own plan! If he is serious about this he should stand aside and let someone with a chance try this plan. Otherwise it wont happen and is yet another student politics type protest.

Pygmies led by simpletons.

From my perspective, as a Remoaner, if we held another referendum and it still went in favour of leaving then fair enough, let's just do it! If after more than three years of this shower of the proverbial a majority of people have looked at it and gone "Yes! I want more of this!" then stuff it let's just give it to them. Leave with no-deal and just get it over with. And I would think (and as there's plenty of us on the thread I may be proved wrong) that that broad sentiment goes for quite a few on the Remain side. A second referendum where Leave win again? Well that's the end of the Remain argument as a viable political force in the near if a majority of voters still want more of this.

I agree entirely.
 

Howardh

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I notice Jeremy Corbyn has a plan to stop a no deal Brexit and install himself as a caretaker PM prior to a general election and potentially a new referendum perhaps including remain as an option. The man is deluded. Mr Corbyn is not liked or respected on either or both sides of the house. His unpopularity is the biggest blocker to his own plan! If he is serious about this he should stand aside and let someone with a chance try this plan. Otherwise it wont happen and is yet another student politics type protest.
.
Could he "stand down" for a temporary period - ie. if there WAS a government of National Catastrophe Unity to block no-deal and then return when the job's been done??
 

DarloRich

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Could he "stand down" for a temporary period - ie. if there WAS a government of National Catastrophe Unity to block no-deal and then return when the job's been done??

better if he just stood down and went back to his allotment and let an actual adult take over.......................
 

Mag_seven

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I notice Jeremy Corbyn has a plan to stop a no deal Brexit and install himself as a caretaker PM prior to a general election and potentially a new referendum perhaps including remain as an option. The man is deluded. Mr Corbyn is not liked or respected on either or both sides of the house. His unpopularity is the biggest blocker to his own plan! If he is serious about this he should stand aside and let someone with a chance try this plan. Otherwise it wont happen and is yet another student politics type protest.

Pygmies led by simpletons.

This plan of Corbyn's is doomed to failure. All it will do is divide remainers allowing this hard right Tory government to take us over the cliff edge with no deal.

I see that the US has stated we must comply with their food hygiene rules in any future trade deal with the US - so much for us being able "to call the shots" having left the EU.

The UK must accept US food standards as part of any future trade deal with Washington, the head of America's farming lobby has said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49353220
 

Bantamzen

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What a time to be alive. Brexit is crashing and burning, the government is crashing and burning, confidence in the economy is crashing and burning, and the only viable offer of an opposition crashed and burned years ago. Anybody want to share a taxi to the nearest airport? Don't forget to turn the lights off..... :'(

I don't think I've ever felt more disengaged from politics than I do now, and that's after 32 years of public hell, erm service. I know some of you don't agree with my decision not to vote in the referendum, and that's OK. But frankly I feel that more and more it didn't matter what way the vote went, leave or remain, because even a remain vote would have led to a similar amount of chaos as the leavers would have challenged every decision & tried to force a leave situation. It seems to me that UK politics is spinning into a plug hole with frightening speed, dragging us all with it.

I therefore nominate my neighbour's cat for the next Prime Minister, if for no other reason that he's got way more sense than the entire population of the UK political scene.
 

krus_aragon

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Could he "stand down" for a temporary period - ie. if there WAS a government of National Catastrophe Unity to block no-deal and then return when the job's been done??
He wouldn't technically need to stand down: it's well within his remit to say he and the Labour Party (or those that obey) will support person X as the head of a replacement government, for a certain period of time.

(Equally, his promises of "I'll only be caretaker PM for a limited period, then I'll stand down" aren't strictly needed: the Commons could pass a motion of no confidence if they felt he'd overstayed his welcome.)
 

furnessvale

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I see that the US has stated we must comply with their food hygiene rules in any future trade deal with the US - so much for us being able "to call the shots" having left the EU.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49353220
Not quite. A lobbyist for US farmers has made that staement, the equivalent of the leader of our NFU stating that we will not accept US standards. Neither has the power or authority to enforce what they say.
 

Killingworth

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Maybe as a lifelong Eurosceptic, that is what Corbyn wants :)

Too right. Corbyn, as a serial rebel against his own party whip, is the last man we need as PM. It would convince even the most ardent remainers that following Boris over the cliff was a better option.
 

edwin_m

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Too right. Corbyn, as a serial rebel against his own party whip, is the last man we need as PM. It would convince even the most ardent remainers that following Boris over the cliff was a better option.
I don't know. As an ardent remainer myself I'd prefer a few months of Corbyn if it included a referendum based on factual campaigning including Labour coming out for remain. The few Labour Brexiters could perhaps have carte blanche to diseent, as long as they base their arguments on facts about what is best for Britain (for which I can see precious few on the Leave side of the argument) not about electoral benefit for Labour.

I'm highly skeptical it would happen because it wouldn't get the necessary support from other parties. But I do believe the "Unite for Remain" alliance could stand aside to avoid splitting the vote in seats where Labour has the best chance of beating the Tories or Farage and where their candidate is a proven strong Remainer. There ought to be the makings of a pact there, where Labour gets a run at more seats in return for supporting a more broadly acceptable candidate for PM such as Tom Watson (who is at least elected by the Labour membership).
 

Ianno87

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Great summary - so much wrong in this country that has been starved of attention and cash with an unnecessary vanity project.

Imagine if the time and energy put into Brexit had been invested in a *real* problem live poverty or climate change.
 

Kite159

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Corbyn only cares about trying to get into power at any cost, even if Mrs May came back with the best possible deal with the EU he would have voted it down as a matter of fact.

No doubt if he ever gets put in as 'temporary' PM, he will try and stay there, knowing in a general election his party will be wiped out. He has been sitting on the fence, saying things to appease remainders in one area, and saying things to appease leavers in other areas
 

anme

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Corbyn only cares about trying to get into power at any cost, even if Mrs May came back with the best possible deal with the EU he would have voted it down as a matter of fact.

No doubt if he ever gets put in as 'temporary' PM, he will try and stay there, knowing in a general election his party will be wiped out. He has been sitting on the fence, saying things to appease remainders in one area, and saying things to appease leavers in other areas

He can try and stay there but he wouldn't succeed for long. If he went beyond the agreed plan, he would quickly lose a confidence vote and be removed.
 

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..allowing this hard right Tory government

Which government would that be? I must have missed it.

I see that the US has stated we must comply with their food hygiene rules in any future trade deal with the US

Nothing wrong with that (though details are lacking). It would be perfectly reasonable for our food exports to the US to comply. As indeed it would be reasonable in reverse. I doubt we'll have rulings handed down from the US Supreme Court influencing our affairs; nor do I expect we'll be forced to allow US citizens to live and work here; nor do I expect the US will prohibit us from agreeing trade agreements with any other nation; nor do I expect we will have to pay £10bn a year for access to their market; nor do I expect the US will determine how many hours per week our employees can work; nor do I think they will attempt to determine what hour we set our clocks to (I could go on but I'm sure you get the gist). Other than that it will be just the same as our current relationship with the EU. :D
 

najaB

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As indeed it would be reasonable in reverse.
It would not. There are a lot of things allowed in US goods that we do not - and for good reason. Examples include high fructose corn syrup, high levels of benzene and trans fats. You might see accepting inferior food as a plus but I definitely do not.
 

GusB

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Which government would that be? I must have missed it.



Nothing wrong with that (though details are lacking). It would be perfectly reasonable for our food exports to the US to comply. As indeed it would be reasonable in reverse. I doubt we'll have rulings handed down from the US Supreme Court influencing our affairs; nor do I expect we'll be forced to allow US citizens to live and work here; nor do I expect the US will prohibit us from agreeing trade agreements with any other nation; nor do I expect we will have to pay £10bn a year for access to their market; nor do I expect the US will determine how many hours per week our employees can work; nor do I think they will attempt to determine what hour we set our clocks to (I could go on but I'm sure you get the gist). Other than that it will be just the same as our current relationship with the EU. :D
Chlorinated chicken? No, thank you.
 

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najaB

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Chlorinated chicken? No, thank you.
This is a funny one. Chlorinated meat, in and unto itself, doesn't present a health risk. You get similar levels of chlorine in drinking water.

But the reasons why they use a chlorine wash are troubling.

It's basically to try and mask the fact that their animal welfare and slaughtering standards are significantly inferior to those set by the EU.

Again, while some might see crowding chickens into barns that are so packed that they start pecking each other to death to try and make some room as a good thing, I do not.
 

edwin_m

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Bletchleyite

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And the UK has about the longest hours and the lowest productivity in Europe. Is that a good thing?

It is the fundamental right of an individual to work if they choose to. The key is preventing people from being forced to work excessive hours, in dangerous conditions etc. I think the UK application of the laws does this effectively.
 

najaB

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It is the fundamental right of an individual to work if they choose to.
Indeed it is.
The key is preventing people from being forced to work excessive hours, in dangerous conditions etc. I think the UK application of the laws does this effectively.
Unfortunately, in far too many cases, as a result of tragedy. And in other cases due to prodding by external forces (e.g. the EU). It's sad but true that business rarely improves the lot of the employee for purely altruistic reasons.
 
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anme

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Nothing wrong with that (though details are lacking). It would be perfectly reasonable for our food exports to the US to comply. As indeed it would be reasonable in reverse. I doubt we'll have rulings handed down from the US Supreme Court influencing our affairs; nor do I expect we'll be forced to allow US citizens to live and work here; nor do I expect the US will prohibit us from agreeing trade agreements with any other nation; nor do I expect we will have to pay £10bn a year for access to their market; nor do I expect the US will determine how many hours per week our employees can work; nor do I think they will attempt to determine what hour we set our clocks to (I could go on but I'm sure you get the gist). Other than that it will be just the same as our current relationship with the EU. :D

This is wrong. The EU does not tell the UK what to do. The UK jointly decides certain things with other European countries, because it doesn't make sense for a fairly small continent like Europe to have 28 different ways of doing things. We are stronger together.

I'm not going to pick apart each individual claim but many of them are obvious nonsense.
 

anme

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It is the fundamental right of an individual to work if they choose to. The key is preventing people from being forced to work excessive hours, in dangerous conditions etc. I think the UK application of the laws does this effectively.

Brexit is weird alliance between ultra-Thatcherites (who now run the government) who want to push free markets and globalisation to the extreme, and the people worst hurt by Thatcherism the first time around. Their interests are not the same and this will not end well.
 
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EM2

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A thought occurs.
Wouldn't we have been better going for Brexit In Name Only in the first place, and then negotiating to remove the bits that we've decided that we don't want later?
That way, disruption would be minimal at the start of the process, rather than the risk of cataclysmic catastrophe when leaving without a deal.
 

najaB

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Wouldn't we have been better going for Brexit In Name Only in the first place, and then negotiating to remove the bits that we've decided that we don't want later?
Taking Brexit as a given, yes. That would have been the sensible way to approach things. But since when has any of this been sensible?
 

Nagora

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This is wrong. The EU does not tell the UK what to do. The UK jointly decides certain things with other European countries,
This is true but misses the systemic problem with how that process works, starting with the selection of commissioners. The end result is that the UK (and everyone else in the EU) is told what to do by a bunch of people fundamentally opposed to democracy - "Technocrats" - and who are completely convinced of their own right to decide things as well as their own infallibility. Even if it means killing people to support their views (statistically killing them, of course - just letting some pensioners and sick people die, and maybe raising the suicide rate among young people. You know - non-specific and very much non-culpable deaths of poor people).

The question of leaving the EU is, to me, much more about what a completely shambolic mess it is than anything else. This is not the sort of organisation anyone should join; and having joined and made some failed efforts here and there to reform it over decades there is no sane reason to remain unless you believe that all human life and moral value comes down to how well the banks are doing this month.

Leaving will be hard going, and the EU will make it as hard as possible because otherwise all the people running it may have to find work somewhere else (at which point the mass unemployment they brushed off as just one of those things you have to put up with to build utopia will look a lot less trivial) and *their* pensions will be under threat.

But we knew all this when we voted to leave and nothing has changed since then.
 
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