Northern Class 195: Initial Diagrams

156420 · 18 Sep 2019

I’ve got 4 ending at Barrow Saturday off:

1829 ex-Manchester Airport
1929 ex-Manchester Airport
1530 ex-Manchester Airport
2226 ex-Lancaster

RailUK Forums

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

156420 said:
I’ve got 4 ending at Barrow Saturday off:

1829 ex-Manchester Airport
1929 ex-Manchester Airport
1530 ex-Manchester Airport
2226 ex-Lancaster

Formed from the new 2043 Windermere - Lancaster, yes, I'd forgotten about that one.

But why the sudden hiatus between Lancaster and Preston on a Saturday night? I see that nothing is scheduled to move after the passage of the 1847 ex-Glasgow Central (TPE - 2109 at Lancaster) yet I can't find any sign of 'improvement' works.

JonathanH · 18 Sep 2019

Bovverboy said:
Getting back to the present, can anyone say what's operating 0916 Lime Street - Airport atm?

It was reported this morning as 142040 on Facebook (Class 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159 & 950 Sprinter group).

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

Bovverboy said:
Getting back to the present, can anyone say what's operating 0916 Lime Street - Airport atm?

JonathanH said:
It was reported this morning as 142040 on Facebook (Class 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159 & 950 Sprinter group).

Thanks for the info. I've nothing against Pacers myself, but putting one on in place of a 195 seems to be asking for a sarcastic response.

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

Just to add, if it was a four-car Pacer on the 0748 ex-Wilmslow (and according to js1000 it was), what was the point in splitting it? A double Pacer does at least have a capacity equivalent to that of a 195.

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

Going off RTT, if we are to trust platform continuity at Lime Street it would appear that the Pacer which broke off from the ex-Wilmslow double then did 1015 Lime Street - Wigan NW, and 142040, after doing two trips to the Airport and back on its own, is now going to double up with whatever was already on the diagram which does 1556 Lime Street - Oxford Road CLC stopper. All that appears perfectly plausible, but whatever is doing 1516 Lime Street to Manchester Airport semi-fast seems to have departed P4, and the previous arrival into that platform is showing as having been an ex-Crewe stopper (i.e. Chat Moss), which came in at c.1430. We can be pretty sure that a 319 isn't doing 1516 Lime Street - Airport, so what is? There's nothing showing on 'Journey Check' - not in respect of that diagram, anyway, but the double 195/0 diagram is showing as short-formed at three carriages.

156420 · 18 Sep 2019

Bovverboy said:
Going off RTT, if we are to trust platform continuity at Lime Street it would appear that the Pacer which broke off from the ex-Wilmslow double then did 1015 Lime Street - Wigan NW, and 142040, after doing two trips to the Airport and back on its own, is now going to double up with whatever was already on the diagram which does 1556 Lime Street - Oxford Road CLC stopper. All that appears perfectly plausible, but whatever is doing 1516 Lime Street to Manchester Airport semi-fast seems to have departed P4, and the previous arrival into that platform is showing as having been an ex-Crewe stopper (i.e. Chat Moss), which came in at c.1430. We can be pretty sure that a 319 isn't doing 1516 Lime Street - Airport, so what is? There's nothing showing on 'Journey Check' - not in respect of that diagram, anyway, but the double 195/0 diagram is showing as short-formed at three carriages.

12:17 ex-Crewe arrive 14:28 at Lime St coupled to form the 15:16 Airport - this was a 142 not a 319.

14:45 Wigan cancelled to provide a unit.

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

156420 said:
12:17 ex-Crewe arrive 14:28 at Lime St coupled to form the 15:16 Airport

I hope you don't mind my asking, but coupled to what to form the 15:16 Airport?

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

Bovverboy said:
142040, after doing two trips to the Airport and back on its own, is now going to double up with whatever was already on the diagram which does 1556 Lime Street - Oxford Road CLC stopper.

Unfortunately there wasn't a conductor available for the 1556 and it's now gone ECS to Oxford Road. Let's hope they find a conductor in time for the 1716 departure - I can vouch for the fact that the said train leaves Oxford Road full, even it's a double 156. Today, I don't know what it is, but it's certainly not a double 156.

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

Bovverboy said:
Just to add, if it was a four-car Pacer on the 0748 ex-Wilmslow (and according to js1000 it was), what was the point in splitting it? A double Pacer does at least have a capacity equivalent to that of a 195.

Well, I suppose I got my answer, the double Pacer was split in order to provide a unit for the 1015 Wigan, the latter being on a diagram which was not operating at the time.
This is outrageous, Northern being perennially short of stock, with the amount they've received in recent years DMUs and EMUs should be coming out of everyone's ears by now.

geoffk · 18 Sep 2019

I believe extra units were put into the various cycles to mitigate the problems of the May 2018 timetable. Did this happen in December, and how many units were involved? This would partly account for the stock shortage we have now.

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

geoffk said:
I believe extra units were put into the various cycles to mitigate the problems of the May 2018 timetable. Did this happen in December, and how many units were involved? This would partly account for the stock shortage we have now.

I certainly don't recall extra units being inserted into any cycles, nor do I recall anyone suggesting that a lack of rolling stock was a problem. Can you give examples of cycles where extra rolling stock was inserted?
The 'May 2018 timetable' fiasco is a joke anyway, anyone who was taking notice of the rail scene at the time will be able to tell you that Northern were catastrophically short of train staff, and that this situation was showing itself long before the May 2018 timetable came into effect. The May 2018 timetable didn't exactly help matters, but, more than anything, it was a convenient 'peg' on which to hang Northern's woes.

js1000 · 18 Sep 2019

17:16 from Liverpool to Man Airport was a 2 coach 195 - I believe it may have been 195001 or 003. It was packed upto Piccadilly and the air conditioning had failed. Northern seem to be having problems with the 195s. Not to mention the rolling stock shortage is being excerbated with problems with the 319s as well - Pacers/150s are frequently having to cover on these routes.

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

js1000 said:
17:16 from Liverpool to Man Airport was a 2 coach 195

So with a 195/0 covering for a 195/1, and a 195/1 covering for a double 195/0, that makes the shortfall over the norm one 195/0.
In addition, the 1516 ex-Lime Street (diagrammed for a double 195/1) was apparently operated by a non-195 set.
So that's two 195/1s and one 195/0 down, in addition to the two 195/1 already scheduled for maintenance, leaving eight 195/1s and one 195/0 available for service. Some days seem much better than others, there have been days recently where all 195 duties have been covered fully.

NWR001 · 18 Sep 2019

Bovverboy said:
I hope you don't mind my asking, but coupled to what to form the 15:16 Airport?

Didn't couple to anything. 2F13 1217 CRE-LIV was formed of 2x 142s, and as mentioned was swapped at Lime Street for both units to instead work 1H40 1516 LIV-MIA (normally formed of 2x 195/1s).

The single 142 unit that worked 1F98 1350 MIA-LIV, stood down on Platform 8, to couple to another unit later on.

geoffk · 18 Sep 2019

Bovverboy said:
I certainly don't recall extra units being inserted into any cycles, nor do I recall anyone suggesting that a lack of rolling stock was a problem. Can you give examples of cycles where extra rolling stock was inserted?
The 'May 2018 timetable' fiasco is a joke anyway, anyone who was taking notice of the rail scene at the time will be able to tell you that Northern were catastrophically short of train staff, and that this situation was showing itself long before the May 2018 timetable came into effect. The May 2018 timetable didn't exactly help matters, but, more than anything, it was a convenient 'peg' on which to hang Northern's woes.

This is just what I heard at a meeting from a usually reliable source. My recollection is that one of the main sources of delay in May 2018 was crew changes at Victoria and Oxford Road with many relieving crews arriving late off another train.

Railperf · 18 Sep 2019

Can anyone help me find which 195's are booked to stop or pass through Preston between 2pm and 7pm tomorrow.

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

Railperf said:
Can anyone help me find which 195's are booked to stop or pass through Preston between 2pm and 7pm tomorrow.

Do you need to know the times 195s are booked to stop (none are booked to pass through without stopping - unless there are some out on training runs) or do you need to know their actual stock numbers?

Railperf · 18 Sep 2019

Bovverboy said:
Do you need to know the times 195s are booked to stop (none are booked to pass through without stopping - unless there are some out on training runs) or do you need to know their actual stock numbers?

Times that service trains are booked to stop please. Thanks in advance.

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

NWR001 said:
Didn't couple to anything. 2F13 1217 CRE-LIV was formed of 2x 142s, and as mentioned was swapped at Lime Street for both units to instead work 1H40 1516 LIV-MIA (normally formed of 2x 195/1s).

Your post #547 said it was 'a 142' on the 1217 ex-Crewe, not 2x142s.

The single 142 unit that worked 1F98 1550 MIA-LIV, stood down on Platform 8, to couple to another unit later on.

I presume you mean 1350. I predicted in post #546 that it was going to double up with what was booked for the 1556 Lime Street - Oxford Road CLC stopper.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't notice it was someone new replying.

IanXC · 18 Sep 2019

Bovverboy said:
I certainly don't recall extra units being inserted into any cycles, nor do I recall anyone suggesting that a lack of rolling stock was a problem. Can you give examples of cycles where extra rolling stock was inserted?
The 'May 2018 timetable' fiasco is a joke anyway, anyone who was taking notice of the rail scene at the time will be able to tell you that Northern were catastrophically short of train staff, and that this situation was showing itself long before the May 2018 timetable came into effect. The May 2018 timetable didn't exactly help matters, but, more than anything, it was a convenient 'peg' on which to hang Northern's woes.

geoffk said:
This is just what I heard at a meeting from a usually reliable source. My recollection is that one of the main sources of delay in May 2018 was crew changes at Victoria and Oxford Road with many relieving crews arriving late off another train.

Which to a significant degree was caused by unexpected route learning due to the Blackpool electrification overrun.

The December 2018 timetable included a number of measures which effectively introduced another unit to the diagram cycles, in a number of cases though its hidden in the (minor) timetable changes.

js1000 · 18 Sep 2019

The unit with the broken air con on the 17:15 service from Liverpool to Manchester Airport today was 195001. Assume it failed earlier in the day and they had no choice but to keep it in service until the end of the day. Pretty disappointing for air con to be failing only 2 months into operation on new trains.

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

Railperf said:
Times that service trains are booked to stop please. Thanks in advance.

I've started the search period a shade early, the reason being that the unit working the 1344 to Barrow isn't scheduled to get back to Preston until 2018. If you see this one you should catch all the 195s in use on the Barrow/Windermere services (should be seven), in fact four should be through twice. I'll give scheduled platform numbers, but, believe me, these are subject to alteration.
1344 Barrow (P3)
1408 Manchester Airport (ex-Windermere) (P4)
1445 Barrow (P4)
1509 Manchester Airport (ex-Barrow) (P4)
1545 Windermere (P4)
1608 Manchester Airport (ex-Barrow) (P4)
1645 Barrow (P4)
1708 Manchester Airport (ex-Windermere) (P6)
1745 Barrow (P4)
1808 Manchester Airport (ex-Barrow) (P4)
1908 Windermere (P5 - arrives 1843)

The unit working the 1408 to Manchester Airport should be back at 1645, 1445 Barrow at 1808, 1509 Airport at 1745, 1608 Airport at 1843.

Cancellations are always a risk, but these are less likely on a Thursday than some other days. All the same, there have been some bad Thursdays. When trains do get cancelled it's usually either north of Preston only (there's often a crew change at Preston), or south of Preston only. It's less common for a train to be cancelled throughout.

I see that there are indeed some training runs scheduled for tomorrow, but these will not necessarily run, if they do run it won't necessarily be at the booked time, and I wouldn't be able to tell if they're intended to be 195s or not. If you want to keep track of those the best way to do it would be via the 'Realtime Trains' website.
Units used on training runs are usually ones which haven't yet seen passenger service.

I don't know if you're interested in 'electric' 195s (i.e. 331s), but there should be at least two of those in use on the Liverpool - Blackpool service, and any units coming through on training runs are more likely to be 331s than 195s.

Railperf · 18 Sep 2019

Bovverboy said:
I've started the search period a shade early, the reason being that the unit working the 1344 to Barrow isn't scheduled to get back to Preston until 2018. If you see this one you should catch all the 195s in use on the Barrow/Windermere services (should be seven), in fact four should be through twice. I'll give scheduled platform numbers, but, believe me, these are subject to alteration.
1344 Barrow (P3)
1408 Manchester Airport (ex-Windermere) (P4)
1445 Barrow (P4)
1509 Manchester Airport (ex-Barrow) (P4)
1545 Windermere (P4)
1608 Manchester Airport (ex-Barrow) (P4)
1645 Barrow (P4)
1708 Manchester Airport (ex-Windermere) (P6)
1745 Barrow (P4)
1808 Manchester Airport (ex-Barrow) (P4)
1908 Windermere (P5 - arrives 1843)

The unit working the 1408 to Manchester Airport should be back at 1645, 1445 Barrow at 1808, 1509 Airport at 1745, 1608 Airport at 1843.

Cancellations are always a risk, but these are less likely on a Thursday than some other days. All the same, there have been some bad Thursdays. When trains do get cancelled it's usually either north of Preston only (there's often a crew change at Preston), or south of Preston only. It's less common for a train to be cancelled throughout.

I see that there are indeed some training runs scheduled for tomorrow, but these will not necessarily run, if they do run it won't necessarily be at the booked time, and I wouldn't be able to tell if they're intended to be 195s or not. If you want to keep track of those the best way to do it would be via the 'Realtime Trains' website.
Units used on training runs are usually ones which haven't yet seen passenger service.

I don't know if you're interested in 'electric' 195s (i.e. 331s), but there should be at least two of those in use on the Liverpool - Blackpool service, and any units coming through on training runs are more likely to be 331s than 195s.

Thank you very very much. A lot of work went in there.
Not sure I will have enough time to do a 331 as well, but just in case - what are the times of those please?

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

Bovverboy said:
I certainly don't recall extra units being inserted into any cycles, nor do I recall anyone suggesting that a lack of rolling stock was a problem. Can you give examples of cycles where extra rolling stock was inserted?
The 'May 2018 timetable' fiasco is a joke anyway, anyone who was taking notice of the rail scene at the time will be able to tell you that Northern were catastrophically short of train staff, and that this situation was showing itself long before the May 2018 timetable came into effect. The May 2018 timetable didn't exactly help matters, but, more than anything, it was a convenient 'peg' on which to hang Northern's woes.

geoffk said:
This is just what I heard at a meeting from a usually reliable source. My recollection is that one of the main sources of delay in May 2018 was crew changes at Victoria and Oxford Road with many relieving crews arriving late off another train.

So I gather what you're saying is that extra trains would be inserted into the various cycles, then they wouldn't run late, and crews coming off them wouldn't be late taking over other trains. Okay, that's logical enough, but why would trains run late after May 2018 any more than they did before that time? A few extra trains were scheduled to run (not all that many), but timetables were generally not tightened.

I'm still waiting to hear of these services where extra units were added to improve reliability. It didn't happen on any route I can think, those I am familiar with run to the same round trip time as they have done for years, or since the last major change. The Liverpool - Crewe stopper was renowned for getting to Oxford Road and there wasn't a crew available to take over, but no slack has been put into the timetable as a consequence. Quite the contrary, the number of units operating the service has been reduced from twelve to ten, by virtue of the Hazel Groves being pulled out of the circuit - but, because Piccadilly - Hazel Grove - Piccadilly can be done in a sight less than two hours, the withdrawal of the two units from the main circuit represents a tightening. Another timetable to have been significantly tightened has been that for Blackpool South - Colne, in order to bring the Ormskirks into the circuit.

So where are the circuits which have had extra trains added?

Bovverboy · 18 Sep 2019

Railperf said:
Not sure I will have enough time to do a 331 as well, but just in case - what are the times of those please?

That's something I couldn't tell you with confidence, sorry, I haven't been to see them myself, yet.

Bovverboy · 19 Sep 2019

IanXC said:
Which to a significant degree was caused by unexpected route learning due to the Blackpool electrification overrun.

We got all sorts of weird & wonderful excuses for last summer's shambles, most of which are easily shot down. The one about unexpected route learning, okay, as I understand it, it was because the Blackpool line was closed for longer than planned and the relevant crews were out of route knowledge, but I don't see that as any big deal, I believe that route familiarisation can be done while a train is in service, therefore as long as you've more than enough instructors to cover the number of trains running between Preston and Blackpool at any one time, there shouldn't be a problem. I don't see it as any reason for a complete meltdown. In any case, reopening of the Blackpool line could have been delayed until sufficient crews were suitably trained, and I seem to recall that reopening was indeed delayed, to a point.

The December 2018 timetable included a number of measures which effectively introduced another unit to the diagram cycles, in a number of cases though its hidden in the (minor) timetable changes.

As mentioned in post #565 (above), I'm still waiting for someone to tell me of a route which had a unit added.

Bovverboy · 19 Sep 2019

NWR001 said:
Didn't couple to anything. 2F13 1217 CRE-LIV was formed of 2x 142s, and as mentioned was swapped at Lime Street for both units to instead work 1H40 1516 LIV-MIA (normally formed of 2x 195/1s).

The single 142 unit that worked 1F98 1550 MIA-LIV, stood down on Platform 8, to couple to another unit later on.

See my edit to post 560.

NWR001 · 19 Sep 2019

Same as yesterday, 2x 142s working 1H99 0613 LIV-WML, and return working 1F92 0748 WML-LIV, in place of the booked 2x 195 allocation.

This will leave a single 142 to work the diagram from 0916 until to 1502, when they recouple at Lime St for the 1516 departure.

Also, only a single 195/1 working 1O42 0709 LIV-MCO in place of the booked 2x 195/0s.

js1000 · 19 Sep 2019

NWR001 said:
Same as yesterday, 2x 142s working 1H99 0613 LIV-WML, and return working 1F92 0748 WML-LIV, in place of the booked 2x 195 allocation.

This will leave a single 142 to work the diagram from 0916 until to 1502, when they recouple at Lime St for the 1516 departure.

Also, only a single 195/1 working 1O42 0709 LIV-MCO in place of the booked 2x 195/0s.

Can confirm. 2x Pacers this morning (again) on Wilmslow to Liverpool.

Northern Class 195: Initial Diagrams

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