Train walk round unnecessary waste of time ?

EssexGonzo · 28 Nov 2020

I drove taxis for a few months some years back and the firm was pretty keen that we did a walk around and checked lights, fluids, brakes and more before we picked up any passengers. If it's good enough practice for a taxi, it sure as hell is good practice for a train.

RailUK Forums

the sniper · 28 Nov 2020

baz962 said:
I do hope this is tongue in cheek. Absolved of blame or not , I wouldn't want anything on my conscience.

Haven't you heard brother, the Tories are the party for the modern professional Driving grade. Don't worry about it, think of the money.

dctraindriver · 28 Nov 2020

the sniper said:
Haven't you heard brother, the Tories are the party for the modern professional Driving grade. Don't worry about it, think of the money.

Precisely. Similar to how police officers thought the Tories were for them. Then 2010 came and Cameron and May blew that well out of the water. However we digress.......

the sniper · 28 Nov 2020

dctraindriver said:
Precisely. Similar to how police officers thought the Tories were for them. Then 2010 came and Cameron and May blew that well out of the water. However we digress.......

And now they're all train drivers... :lol:

Vespa · 28 Nov 2020

I used to drive vintage trams in a museum and drive LGVs in my day job, it's your responsibility to make sure what you're driving is safe to drive out, I always do a once round to ensure its safe and undamaged, test the brakes, lights etc, same with my car, st end of duty I do a post check then sign it off.

If anything was defective and you ignore it, then something happens it's on you, it's you that will be prosecuted.

GB · 28 Nov 2020

ABB125 said:
Why does the inspection need to be undertaken by a driver? Surely it would be better for someone whose job it is to maintain the trains to inspect?

It can be done by whoever is qualified, no one is disputing that. But the text quoted in the OP suggests not doing it at all.

SignallerJohn · 28 Nov 2020

Using the buzz words highly paid and union, they know their supporters very well.

philthetube · 28 Nov 2020

Domh245 said:
Putting status lights in the cab (or a faults page on the TMS) doesn't address the issues around sensor reliability, nor how or what to put a sensor on. For example, the examples mentioned around equipment doors being left open, or a ladder left against the train, how do you put sensors to detect that? You could put a proximity sensor on every single equipment door, but that's going to quickly start becoming very expensive for very little benefit. Something like a ladder would be to all intents and purposes undetectable (on cost and technical grounds). Not to mention that with each sensor you put on something, that's another thing that can fail - there a few things more irritating than a faulty sensor grinding things to a halt when everything else is fine

sensors on equipment doors will provide many more false alerts than real ones

SilentGrade · 28 Nov 2020

geoffk said:
I steeled myself to read this Conservative Home article. Actually there are some good points in it, especially the last one - "the greatest inefficiency within the rail system is the Time Delay Attribution mechanism. This merry-go-round of cash and blame achieves little and certainly doesn't help the passengers or taxpayers."

TDA as a data gathering exercise could be so much more if it was steered away from being used primarily to divvy up money and instead to give accurate data on what is the primary causes of delay and how to fix them

Tomnick · 28 Nov 2020

Just a few examples of things that I have found amiss in the course of the preps that I've carried out in my driving career:

- Horn left isolated after maintenance. You certainly wouldn't want to wait until you're trying to sound a warning to trackworkers or crossing users to find that out!
- Isolating cocks below solebar left isolated. I'm aware of at least one example - probably more - of a train (presumably previously held by scotches) being moved with the brakes isolated (once on the move, it kept going). It was only a shunt move around a maintenance depot, but the potential is there still.
- Defective safety systems. On our trains, at least, they (TPWS excepted) don't self-test.
- Engine oil or transmission oil just about to disappear out of the very bottom of the sight glass. It's maybe not immediately dangerous, but it'll most likely lead to a failure situation later in the day, which is potentially very inconvenient and also carries risks of its own (the first you know of low oil pressure on our trains is when the affected engine shuts down, and even then you have to go looking for the problem).
- Things amiss in the rear cab, some of which could immediately affect the safety of the train and some of which would merely be an inconvenience when I or the next driver came to change ends and found the defect, potentially failing the train in an inconvenient location.

SynthD said:
Could there be more status lights in the cab? Put them behind the driver so it’s not a distraction. A simple red yellow green status light on oil, does that need checking more than once a shift?

When I take a hire bike I briefly test it out before even unlocking it. Sometimes the same tests with my own bike, stored in my own garage. There’s no need for complacency.

As others have said, newer trains will often flag issues up through the TMS, but there are plenty of trains out there that don't have much in the way of electronic sensors, nor any means of transmitting anything other than a couple of general fault indications to the leading cab from the affected vehicle. Generally trains are only prepped once per day anyway, one exception being at some companies where they have to be prepped again if they're left shut down for a period of time during the day (e.g. between the peaks).

43066 · 28 Nov 2020

notadriver said:
Shapps has spotted a once-in-a-lifetime chance to give Britain world-class railways | Conservative Home

The Transport Secretary has set up a reform committee which is getting ready to use the pandemic to rout the Luddites in the rail unions.

www.conservativehome.com

.

Walk round unnecessary?

It’s lucky there are no trains from the 1970s still rocking around the network.

Oh wait...

the sniper said:
Haven't you heard brother, the Tories are the party for the modern professional Driving grade. Don't worry about it, think of the money.

Amen to that, brother.

Islineclear3_1 · 28 Nov 2020

Sounds like a recipe for complacency ...

train stabled in remote location or near public rights of way...vandals tamper with the train; pull/cut cables, smash a rear windscreen/a few windows/headlights (insert whatever you like here).

No dashboard warning light tells you everything....

Flange Squeal · 28 Nov 2020

A lot of comments mention trains at depots and yes I guess it might be possible to get other grades to do it (and indeed many depots do have depot drivers who do the shunting at night to make up the next day's formations, usually with a prep once done). There are however many other places where trains are regularly berthed away from depots, be it stations with just a few sidings so no need for staff other than traincrew to be based there, or be it at an 'unusual' station overnight when things like overnight/weekend engineering works prevent trains getting to/from their usual stabling location. Employing people at - or to drive out to - prep trains at such locations would probably be even less cost effective than just paying a mainline driver 15-20 minutes (depending on the type of train) to do it as part of their shift. Such locations are also generally devoid of people overnight, so any tinkering from vandals between the time someone preps it and it actually being taken out by a driver would likely go unnoticed. Preps are also taking into account things such as the gauge on fire extinguishers and expiry date of detonators. The latter could admittedly be on a database somewhere I suppose, but the former is something that very much requires visual inspection.

43096 · 28 Nov 2020

FordFocus said:
Poorly researched and nothing more than an opinion piece.

Agreed. But the same can also be said of some of the replies on here.

It is clearly a nonsense to remove the walk-round checks.

Dr Hoo · 28 Nov 2020

SilentGrade said:
TDA as a data gathering exercise could be so much more if it was steered away from being used primarily to divvy up money and instead to give accurate data on what is the primary causes of delay and how to fix them

It would be wrong to deflect this thread with yet another detailed explanation of delay attribution (introduced by BR) and the performance regimes but as has been explained many times before the two processes are quite distinct and generally carried out by different staff. Money has never been 'divvied up' or argued about on the basis of individual incidents. Delay attribution continues to be focused on identification of root cause as it has been for well over 25 years.

6Gman · 28 Nov 2020

ABB125 said:
Why does the inspection need to be undertaken by a driver? Surely it would be better for someone whose job it is to maintain the trains to inspect?

Because the driver is more likely to be diligent? Because he's not looking at train after train and because he has very good reason to be attentive as he'll be at the pointy end of said train?

A broader point (and, as background, I spent a big chunk of my railway career diagramming traincrew.

The prep allowance in my experience was rarely more than 20 minutes, sometimes less. Is this writer really suggesting that taking 20 minutes out once or twice in a shift is going to have any significant financial benefit? Can't see it myself.

The biggest change that raised traincrew efficiency in my time was flexible rostering, followed by DOO. Both in BR days.

And if the writer is upset that drivers are paid too much I would say that was down to privatisation when the TOCs realised that poaching staff with higher pay was a lot cheaper than training up their own staff.

So, basically, what I'm saying is that the article is poorly researched **** (insert term of choice).

bb21 · 28 Nov 2020

Dr Hoo said:
It would be wrong to deflect this thread with yet another detailed explanation of delay attribution (introduced by BR) and the performance regimes but as has been explained many times before the two processes are quite distinct and generally carried out by different staff. Money has never been 'divvied up' or argued about on the basis of individual incidents. Delay attribution continues to be focused on identification of root cause as it has been for well over 25 years.

Every time I see a Tory piece bitch about delay attribution, I just want to yawn given the fact the main reason it is in its sorry state of affairs in some cases is the way privatisation was implemented.

It is an expensive system as it stands these days, and certainly has its shortcomings, but there is currently no viable alternative to understanding causes of poor performance in a systematic way. Arguments over money have often taken place over individual incidents, but as you say, not usually by delay attribution people, and certainly don't influence incident attribution itself.

MarkyT · 29 Nov 2020

philthetube said:
sensors on equipment doors will provide many more false alerts than real ones

And each one will require a walk down the train to investigate anyway, so if insufficient time has been allowed for prepping, that train will be late into service. Or does the driver just automatically fail the train on any fault detected and hand it straight back to maintenance staff to investigate (where present), in which case the first working is likely to be cancelled. Drivers ARE first line technicians. That's an increasingly important function as trains get more complex. More onboard diagnostics is good to simplify and speed the prepping tasks though.

Mojo · 29 Nov 2020

choochoochoo said:
If they're so bothered about paying 'driver's wages' for a walk around check, then could they not create a train preparers job role on slightly less?

I’m interested by this activity; is it done in all cases or just by trains that are remotely outstabled? What I’m getting at is would a driver have a walk around in all cases, or if the train is on shed at a maintenance depot could the depot staff do it?

37057 · 29 Nov 2020

Dr Hoo said:
To help this thread along could somebody in the industry comment on whether anybody else besides the driver ever 'walks round the train'. For example, does a fitter or 'carriage and wagon examiner' also walk round and identify anything needing attention? (I appreciate that some trains are stabled away from a 'depot' and hence are unlikely to be seen by a fitter every day.)

Yes. At my place fuel point staff do most of the preps. Alternatively if a unit is in the shed for repairs theres a good chance that the person who's worked on it will conclude with a prep if asked to do so. Trains are then formed and handed over to mainline drivers who usually get going after a couple of minutes.

Meglodon 5 · 29 Nov 2020

notadriver said:
Shapps has spotted a once-in-a-lifetime chance to give Britain world-class railways | Conservative Home

The Transport Secretary has set up a reform committee which is getting ready to use the pandemic to rout the Luddites in the rail unions.

www.conservativehome.com

.

Walk round unnecessary?

Also, I think the driver would know if something was wrong with their train.

dk1 · 29 Nov 2020

Took me a while to work out what this thread was all about. If it had said 'Prep' I wouldve got it straight away. Walk round :lol:

& what does Shapps know & what's it got to do with him anyway?

Domh245 · 29 Nov 2020

dk1 said:
what does Shapps know & what's it got to do with him anyway?

It isn't Shapps proposing this, but the Telegraph's parliamentary sketchwriter. If anything, Shapps is more likely to appreciate the need for walk rounds given his penchant for general aviation

dk1 · 29 Nov 2020

Domh245 said:
It isn't Shapps proposing this, but the Telegraph's parliamentary sketchwriter. If anything, Shapps is more likely to appreciate the need for walk rounds given his penchant for general aviation

Ahh that makes more sense. It was amusing to think an MP had an opinion worth taking seriously on the subject but hilarious it's only a journalist :lol:

Swanny200 · 29 Nov 2020

I love the way Shapps talks about the high pay of a train driver, part of it being a high paid job is the fact that it is safety critical, the same can be said for guards and train managers, safety critical involves surely making sure that the equipment you are using i.e the train is safe and fit for purpose, you are making sure it is safe for yourself too, not just your passengers. Someone else should check it??, do you trust that other person to make sure that nothing has been missed.

The thing is Shapps at times has absolutely no clue, I will admit he has more of a clue than some of his predecessors, but I wouldn't be happy having an article like this attributed to me.

Whistler40145 · 29 Nov 2020

Had I been a train driver, I would walk around my train to ensure everything was okay, otherwise my train wouldn’t move an inch from where it has been stabled overnight.

I wouldn’t want to reprimanded if we had started off in service and the train discovered a fault, especially when it was stabled in full working order

ComUtoR · 29 Nov 2020

Whistler40145 said:
Had I been a train driver, I would walk around my train to ensure everything was okay, otherwise my train wouldn’t move an inch from where it has been stabled overnight.

I wouldn’t want to reprimanded if we had started off in service and the train discovered a fault, especially when it was stabled in full working order

We don't always walk around our trains, Most of the time I just get booked to go and get it from the sidings or platform. Its a shame that there is always a political motivation behind such postings (from people like Shapps) because there is some merit in a change of culture and procedures with the introduction of new units.

Bow Fell · 29 Nov 2020

Ianno87 said:
It would be interesting to know how often the walk around finds something amiss that otherwise would not have been detected.

The obvious point also being that trains do a darn sight more mileage every day than a typical car.

I would say I get a call with a fault to pass on, or something missing, first aid box etc, nearly everyday or every at least other day when the crew are prepping the unit. Granted I’d say 80-90% of the time it isn’t something that stops the train entering service.

ComUtoR said:
We don't always walk around our trains, Most of the time I just get booked to go and get it from the sidings or platform. Its a shame that there is always a political motivation behind such postings (from people like Shapps) because there is some merit in a change of culture and procedures with the introduction of new units.

I agree, with a lot of new units they get prepped and a fitness to run certificate by the fitter overnight. So the thing is what is being suggested isn’t even something new! Even with current older units, if they come ofthe depot, the fitter/maintenance staff preps them, traincrew arrive by taxi and off they go!

The only thing I can see that you are saving with this is time!

Here’s a question and there will be some different answers varying by TOC. Unit prepped/fitness to run certificate and runs in the AM peak then put down the sidings and driver booked to dispose. Around 8 hours later, unit booked back out of the sidings and into traffic. Does it need a prep? Where I work it definitely would.

Ashley Hill · 29 Nov 2020

Train/loco prep IMO should be done independently from any person who has maintained it. It can be easy to overlook ones own mistakes so an independent check is vital. Also it's often the crew who work it forward who do the prep so it's in their interest to do it properly. Proper preparation prevents poor performance etc.........

Whistler40145 · 29 Nov 2020

Ashley Hill said:
Train/loco prep IMO should be done independently from any person who has maintained it. It can be easy to overlook ones own mistakes so an independent check is vital. Also it's often the crew who work it forward who do the prep so it's in their interest to do it properly. Proper prepared prevents poor performance etc.........

I agree, the maintenance guys aren’t the ones driving the train

Train walk round unnecessary waste of time ?

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