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Landslip at Hatfield Colliery (near Doncaster) line to Hull/Scunthorpe now reopened.

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khib70

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IanXC said:
I understand that on Saturday (at least the first couple of services) were route conducted by West Coast Railways! I'm fairly sure that there were 4 HT drivers in the cab on my journey from Kirkgate to Goole, I suspect there has been a lot of effort put into bringing all the HT crews up to speed on this route, as for some time its going to be the only diversionary route should the Selby route be shut for whatever reason.

On Saturday I had the impression that the 09.48 KGX-HUL reversed at Kirkgate because the route conductors had to swap trains there (the down HT was waiting at WKK, and departed a couple of minutes after we arrived).

On Sunday the reversal was significantly slicker - firstly because it was undertaken just past Calder Bridge Junction, and secondly because another driver was ready and waiting in the rear cab, so the reversal took less than a minute.
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Was booked to travel on the 1050 Hull-Goole on Sunday to connect with the 1310 from Doncaster to Edinburgh. Thanks to a helpful TPE man on Hull station I was redirected to the 1110 FHT service to London as a way of avoiding the bustitution. An interesting tour of the Yorkshire lines followed, including the reversal manouver.

When the train crew walked through the train to change ends, there were three of them - the FHT driver, another guy in a hi-vis, and, as you say, a guy in a West Coast hi-vis jacket. The reversal was indeed just past Calder Bridge. Made it to Donny with 15 mins to spare after an interesting, if leisurely, trundle through the county.

Good PA announcements throughout , too. Well done all involved for a professional and efficient response to a major incident which was none of the railway's doing.
 
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irrelevant

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This might be a really stupid suggestion from a newbie with a non-engineering background, but could it be treated it like the sudden appearance of a rather slow-moving river? Shove some piles down to the bedrock and build a bridge deck over the top of the lot. Obviously it would need monitoring, but if the material is as fluid as it seems, it should just flow around the supports, if it's all rigid enough..
 
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YorkshireBear

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irrelevant said:
This might be a really stupid suggestion from a newbie with a non-engineering background, but could it be treated it like the sudden appearance of a rather slow-moving river? Shove some piles down to the bedrock and build a bridge deck over the top of the lot. Obviously it would need monitoring, but if the material is as fluid as it seems, it should just flow around the supports, if it's all rigid enough..
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Firstly welcome to the forum :)

That would be very expensive and time consuming. And the problem is they wouldnt be able to do that until it has all settled. It might be fluid as a river but if it moves it causes a lot more damage than flowing water. And i dont think it is that fluid, its very fluid for soil... but not quite like that, its still a landslip and would cause damage to any structure in its way. You can see the way it destroyed a railway line, a bridge would stand little chance either. The best geologists and engineers in the country have been called in. And all they have said is, wait for it to stop then clear it away regrade the spoil heap and build the track again. Unfortunately as an (almost) engineer myself i also see no other solution.

Hope this helps, and for someone with no engineering background it wasn't a stupid suggestion :P
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
David said:
Anyway, there is an article on the Scunthorpe Telegraph website, suggesting that until the line is re-opened, all South TPE service should be re-routed via Retford, Gainsborough and Brigg to reach Cleethorpes ....
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Transpennine Express now have details on their website on why they cannot run via brigg.

Also i think this may be the identity of one of our forum membes, certainly rings to a familar tune :P
 
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Tomnick

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The rotational nature of the slip means that it's pushing material (and the railway) upwards as well as southwards, as the various photos show to great effect, so I suspect your bridge would end up a similar shape to the railway!

Edit: YorkshireBear beat me to it, and is of course correct to suggest that it'd cause a lot more damage to any structure than water would! Between us we might just about get it right :) .
 
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Chapeltom said:
People keep going on about waiting for the land to stop moving, what happens if it doesn't for months? How long could we be talking about a closure, is years a possibility? Or is just a case of months?
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I doubt it will last years. If it doesnt stop for months, then it wont be open for months. Unfortunately it is as simple as that. If it slows sufficiently there may be a way of stopping it but i wouldnt know. Its a see saw and until the weight of the earth moved is approximately equal to that of the earth pushing it, it will keep moving. (thats a rough explanation anyway ofc its more complex than that)
 
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corin paul said:
Yes, I think he forgot about running down "The Joint" to Gainsboro Trent Jcr, then Gainsborough Central and Brigg, and then back on at Wrawby Junction.
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Tomnick said:
To answer your very last point, how about reversing at Doncaster, running via the 'Joint' to Gainsboro' Trent Jn and onto the MS&LR there? Seems easy enough to me ;) .
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:oops: Yes I did forget about Doncaster - Gainsborough :oops:
 
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dstrat

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eastwestdivide said:
To address point B above



Assuming paths over the Brigg line aren't a problem, the timetable gives:
Doncaster-Gainsborough 28 mins (EM daily service)
Gasinborough-Barnetby ~40 mins (Sat Northern service - varies by a few mins)
For a total 68 mins (plus an allowance for reversal at Doncaster?)

Normal Doncaster-Barnetby time via Scunthorpe: 40 mins

So I reckon there would be an additional call on rolling stock, especially if you still wanted to serve Scunthorpe from the E by train
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You can reduce probably by at least 10 minutes? I was on the Brigg line train this saturday and we got to Gainsborough Central from Grimsby way 10 minutes earlier than the scheduled departure time.
 
eastwestdivide

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The pre-landslip timetable has arrivals at Cleethorpes at xx50 or xx52 and departures at xx26, so a ~35 min turnround, or 35 mins per return trip to play with in a diverted timetable.
If you cut off 10 mins from the Doncaster-Gainsborough-Cleethorpes timing in my earlier post, call it 55 mins to be generous, you're losing 15 mins each way over the existing timing (55 minus 40), i.e. 30 mins per return trip to try and maintain the timetable, and you're still not serving Scunthorpe.
And that doesn't take into account the need to reverse at Doncaster, potentially adding a couple of mins each way to the existing station stop time there.
Already, that 35 mins turnround leeway has been eaten up.
Another potential problem is where the inbound and outbound services would cross each other in such a scenario, hopefully not in the centre of a single line section.
It's a bit skin-of-your-teeth, and not what I'd call robust.

If anyone's got better timings than my back of the envelope versions, feel free...
 
Boothby97

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Boothby97

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sprinterguy said:
Different 185s each way, I think. 185124 up to Cleethorpes in exchange for 185140 back to Sheffield.
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Got an email to say;
185124 worked 5G85 Doncaster to Cleethorpes via Sheffield this afternoon.

185140 worked 5G86 Cleethorpes to Sheffield this evening.

The 185s are cleared for the Brigg-Gainsborough line with a 15mph speed limit through platform 1 at Gainsborough Central, not cleared from Gainsborough to Doncaster but they are cleared for the Worksop line
Thanks, Sam
 
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I think that it's naive/ meaningless to try to shave ten minutes off the Gainsborough - Cleethorpes time when you consider that this is based on a Saturday timetable when there's little freight on the single track "Brigg" line to bother the scheduled passenger service.

That doesn't mean that an "unscheduled" passenger train could run that fast during the week, when there's a lot more freight on the single track line.

The fact that you can do it in fifty minutes at six o'clock at night is similarly irrelevant as the single track/ freight constraints are less important at that hour.
 
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bradders1983

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Quick question - the damage is to the east of H&S station isnt it?

So why cant the stoppers go up there and terminate there, put the bus on from there and then the train restarts from Thorne North or South (whichever is applicable)? Nowhere to cross the tracks to reverse?

Would save a few buses going right into Doncaster which at peak might take a while. Or do the buses have to start at manned stations?
 
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Boothby97

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bradders1983 said:
Quick question - the damage is to the east of H&S station isnt it?

So why cant the stoppers go up there and terminate there, put the bus on from there and then the train restarts from Thorne North or South (whichever is applicable)? Nowhere to cross the tracks to reverse?

Would save a few buses going right into Doncaster which at peak might take a while. Or do the buses have to start at manned stations?
Click to expand...

I thought the damage was west of the station, considering the loading bay for coal trains is next to the line up to the ECML.
Thanks, Sam
 
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bradders1983

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Boothby97 said:
I thought the damage was west of the station, considering the loading bay for coal trains is next to the line up to the ECML.
Thanks, Sam
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I just checked Google Maps and the colliery is to the east of the station, so i presume trains could get up to the station from Doncaster if they wanted to. Suppose there are many other logistics at play though :D
 
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bradders1983 said:
Quick question - the damage is to the east of H&S station isnt it?

So why cant the stoppers go up there and terminate there, put the bus on from there and then the train restarts from Thorne North or South (whichever is applicable)? Nowhere to cross the tracks to reverse?

Would save a few buses going right into Doncaster which at peak might take a while. Or do the buses have to start at manned stations?
Click to expand...

trains can't shunt at thorne due to the pointwork being underneith Mount Hatfield at the moment and from what i have been led to believe, they can't run into Hatfield and Stainforth station due to the loss of signalling there (the latter, i can not confirm, it's only what i have been informed)
 
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TG said:
trains can't shunt at thorne due to the pointwork being underneith Mount Hatfield at the moment and from what i have been led to believe, they can't run into Hatfield and Stainforth station due to the loss of signalling there (the latter, i can not confirm, it's only what i have been informed)
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Right OK, that will probably explain it then in that case.
 
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That makes sense - I don't know exactly what's possible at Hatfield & Stainforth (I wouldn't be surprised if the signalling's been lost - certainly some photos show dark signals in the vicinity of Mount Hatfield - but the limits of the possession might make the shunts a bit awkward too, possibly), but there's certainly a large obstacle to shunting back to the proper line to/from the east at Thorne Jn. Any attempt at running trains to either Thorne station would, I'm sure, require SLW arrangements to get them back bang road to Crowle or Goole (nearest crossovers, without checking?). I don't think I'd be too keen on the idea of hanging around Thorne or Hatfield waiting for a bus forward anyway :) .
 
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TG said:
trains can't shunt at thorne due to the pointwork being underneith Mount Hatfield at the moment and from what i have been led to believe, they can't run into Hatfield and Stainforth station due to the loss of signalling there (the latter, i can not confirm, it's only what i have been informed)
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The signalling at Hatfield/Stainforth area is fed from Thorne Jct. so if the signals in that area are still illuminted the the lineside cables is still in tact.

Just think about all the messing about, passengers off train at Hatfield & Stainforth, over footbridge onto a bus to Thorne North Station, back off bus over footbridge back onto train to carry on to Goole, then te messing of getting train in place for return journey.

Think we have the best that can be arranged in place and it seems to be working alright.
 
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TG said:
trains can't shunt at thorne due to the pointwork being underneith Mount Hatfield at the moment and from what i have been led to believe, they can't run into Hatfield and Stainforth station due to the loss of signalling there (the latter, i can not confirm, it's only what i have been informed)
Click to expand...

Ha I like that. When I was at school, we referred (rather disparagingly) to the Hatfield Colliery spoil heaps as "Stainy Alps"...

Apologies for the tangent...
 
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Tomnick said:
That makes sense - I don't know exactly what's possible at Hatfield & Stainforth (I wouldn't be surprised if the signalling's been lost - certainly some photos show dark signals in the vicinity of Mount Hatfield - but the limits of the possession might make the shunts a bit awkward too, possibly), but there's certainly a large obstacle to shunting back to the proper line to/from the east at Thorne Jn. Any attempt at running trains to either Thorne station would, I'm sure, require SLW arrangements to get them back bang road to Crowle or Goole (nearest crossovers, without checking?). I don't think I'd be too keen on the idea of hanging around Thorne or Hatfield waiting for a bus forward anyway :) .
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the nearest crossover is at goole.... that would take quite some SLW!!
 
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lincolnshire said:
The signalling at Hatfield/Stainforth area is fed from Thorne Jct. so if the signals in that area are still illuminted the the lineside cables is still in tact.
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They're not (at least, they weren't in the more recent photos), which doesn't entirely surprise me! Thanks for confirming that they are (or were) fed from the other side of the hill though :) .
TG said:
the nearest crossover is at goole.... that would take quite some SLW!!
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I thought so, but thanks for saving me the trip upstairs to check! The length of the single line shouldn't be a problem (I've only done it once so, around an obstruction rather than to the point of obstruction, but that was 11 miles between the crossovers, which is further than Goole to Thorne!), but I don't think it'd justify finding a Pilotman, LC attendants and Handsignalmen for both Crowle - Thorne S and Goole - Thorne N just to save a few miles on a bus!
 
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