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15/08/17 Waterloo derailment and disruption (latter likely to continue to 16/8)

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spark001uk

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Has anyone a photo of the body damage to the 456? Or is that a beheadable offence? ;)
 

XCTurbostar

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Has anyone a photo of the body damage to the 456? Or is that a beheadable offence? ;)

Ask and you shall receive.. apologies for the poor quality but you get the idea.

Thanks,
Ross
 

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cjohnson

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From the RAIB

At around 05:42 hrs on Tuesday 15 August 2017, a passenger train leaving London Waterloo station travelling at about 11 mph (18 km/h) collided with a stationary train of wagons. There were no injuries, but both trains were damaged and there was serious disruption to train services using the station.

The passenger train was the 05:40 hrs South West Trains service from Waterloo to Guildford and comprised 10 coaches, a combination of class 455 and class 456 electric units. The wagons were standing on a line adjacent to the intended route of the passenger train and had been provided as a safety barrier separating passenger services from an area where construction work was being undertaken as part of the Waterloo station upgrade project.

The collision occurred because a set of points were misaligned and directed the passenger train away from its intended route. The misalignment was a consequence of a temporary modification to the points control system which also caused the train driver and signaller to receive indications that the points were correctly aligned.

Our investigation will examine:

the circumstances leading to installation of the temporary control system modification
the safety measures provided while the temporary modification was in place
the checking and testing procedures applicable to the modification
any relevant underlying management factors.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-near-london-waterloo-station-15-august-2017
 

Signal Head

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Yep points locked and detected one way (normal) and were physically facing another (reverse). Now over to the experts to determine why.

I understand it was actually "detected Normal" but lying half-and-half/midstroke. Which would answer the question of "derailment or collision" , train would have derailed on the switches and then been guided towards the barrier train by other components of the double slip.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Has it been confirmed what they'll do with the 456 unit once the investigation is over (i.e. will they repair it or given the age of the unit will they scrap it)?
 

nlogax

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I understand it was actually "detected Normal" but lying half-and-half/midstroke. Which would answer the question of "derailment or collision" , train would have derailed on the switches and then been guided towards the barrier train by other components of the double slip.

That would tally with the front-facing cab camera pic I saw that was briefly posted elsewhere a few days ago. Slip was very obviously not locked for either direction.
 

Signal Head

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From the RAIB

"Our investigation will examine:
...

any relevant underlying management factors"

That's going to be an interesting read, I have a feeling they might find rather a lot of those, if they look deep, and far back enough.
 

Taunton

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Effectively a repeat of Clapham all those years ago - overnight works handed back misassembled which catch the first train next morning (Clapham was the first trains to run at a close headway the next morning, this is the first service on this routing the next morning).

So the RAIB will be looking at what post-Clapham measures, whose implementation caused huge costs and works delays over the years since, have now been let go.

It must have been almost immediately apparent. I was on an 0730 departure from Waterloo that morning (0700 timetabled, leaving about 30 minutes late) which crept at walking pace over every facing point out to beyond Vauxhall.
 
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Sunset route

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I understand it was actually "detected Normal" but lying half-and-half/midstroke. Which would answer the question of "derailment or collision" , train would have derailed on the switches and then been guided towards the barrier train by other components of the double slip.

As with the law of physics what goes up must come down, there is the law of the termini platforms, what comes out must of gone in first and those point of ends form the only route in and out of platform 11.
 

Signal Head

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Effectively a repeat of Clapham all those years ago - overnight works handed back misassembled which catch the first train next morning (Clapham was the first trains to run at a close headway the next morning, this is the first service on this routing the next morning).

So the RAIB will be looking at what post-Clapham measures, whose implementation caused huge costs and works delays over the years since, have now been let go.

Nothing has been 'let go', not officially anyway. I suspect we will find that someone was cutting corners in order to get more done - there was an awful lot to get done in a short time. There was talk that the job wouldn't go ahead because the possession wasn't big enough for the way in which it had been planned.

There are echoes of Clapham, but I don't think it's going to be an identical cause. We will find out in due course. Very fortunately it wasn't an identical outcome. At least it appears the RAIB are going to produce a full report, not just a digest.

The consequences here were fairly limited, imagine the same scenario applied to a higher speed line.
 

Signal Head

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Similar thing happened at Cardiff last year didn't it? That was a very lucky outcome also!

Not quite, those points were redundant and had been disconnected from the signalling system, but left in the wrong 'lie'. The ones at Waterloo are still worked by the interlocking and ought to have been detected and proved correct before a proceed aspect was displayed. For some reason that proving was absent, or was defeated.
 

Railman

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Interesting point about how the stock for the service got into the platform in the first place or had it been stabled overnight?
Of course if the point circuits had been "by passed" it could have gone into the platform "run through" the points and then been signalled out over the now standing off points and no one would have known.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Interesting point about how the stock for the service got into the platform in the first place or had it been stabled overnight?
Of course if the point circuits had been "by passed" it could have gone into the platform "run through" the points and then been signalled out over the now standing off points and no one would have known.

Do you know what you're on about? Do you sign the road into Waterloo?

The answer is from that rubbish you posted, almost probably not. :roll:
 

Signal Head

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Do you know what you're on about? Do you sign the road into Waterloo?

The answer is from that rubbish you posted, almost probably not. :roll:

What's wrong with it? It seems a reasonable scenario to me. What has signing the road got to do with it?
 

BestWestern

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What's wrong with it? It seems a reasonable scenario to me. What has signing the road got to do with it?

It certainly seems that the points were free to move - by whatever means - independently of their supposedly associated position indications.
 

ComUtoR

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What has signing the road got to do with it?

Because there may be multiple ways into a platform through different sets of points. Just because a comes out via a set of points doesn't mean that's the way they came in.

Sunset's post qualifies his statement better as he/she states that the points are the only route into the platform.
 

HarleyDavidson

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But if the train had run through the points then they wouldn't be in the position they were in when it came back out.
 

Sunset route

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Only HPSS points don't give when run through to my knowledge. But as it looks like the detection was was frigged, who knows where the points were laying, did they move and detected correctly for the inward movement (if indeed there was one). But with the C end of those points inside the possession with a train sat on them, the A and B ends shouldn't of been able to move let alone facing the wrong direction. All the while the signalling diagram and the signal were showing the correct route out for what was set. This will be a big one when the report comes out.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Only HPSS points don't give when run through to my knowledge. But as it looks like the detection was was frigged, who knows where the points were laying, did they move and detected correctly for the inward movement (if indeed there was one). But with the C end of those points inside the possession with a train sat on them, the A and B ends shouldn't of been able to move let alone facing the wrong direction. All the while the signalling diagram and the signal were showing the correct route out for what was set. This will be a big one when the report comes out.

Are you suggesting that head's will roll because of it and the implications of it?

Also the possibility of legal action as well?
 

Sunset route

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Are you suggesting that head's will roll because of it and the implications of it?

Also the possibility of legal action as well?

No, but I think some big lessons are going to be learned from this one. this is a RAIB report, so heads don't roll with them, but I expect there might some harsh criticisms for the railway to take onboard.
 

DerekC

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No, but I think some big lessons are going to be learned from this one. this is a RAIB report, so heads don't roll with them, but I expect there might some harsh criticisms for the railway to take onboard.

I totally agree. The changes introduced after the Hidden Report into Clapham mean that this sort of thing just shouldn't happen any more. If there has been a breakdown in process and supervision under the pressure to deliver on time then RAIB will identify what, who, when and why. That's their job.
 

Signal Head

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But if the train had run through the points then they wouldn't be in the position they were in when it came back out.
Precisely. They may have been fitting up Reverse before.

If they had been run through there will have been evidence 'on the ground'
 

Signal Head

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Because there may be multiple ways into a platform through different sets of points. Just because a comes out via a set of points doesn't mean that's the way they came in.

Sunset's post qualifies his statement better as he/she states that the points are the only route into the platform.

I had exactly the same thought as 'Railman', I don't "sign the road" because I don't drive trains.
.
I can, however, read a signalling plan.

'Sunset' had already made it clear there was only one route in/out before 'Harley' jumped on `Railman', who I thought had made a fair point.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Does the id number of all points on routes they sign and which route each possible setting leads to form part of a driver's route knowledge?
 
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